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Old October 18th, 2017, 10:04 AM   #1541
DAJAN
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Well we lost the opportunity to have genuine relief of the Parramatta line by the all stations service when they blew 500m on the section from lidcombe to Granville without adding another track pair
Particularly since a large stretch of it does already have 6+ tracks, including 6 platforms at Clyde of all places!
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Old October 18th, 2017, 10:28 AM   #1542
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I don't follow. What led you to the conclusion that Silverwater would be left out?
I should have thought that the LR going North of the river would make a Metro stop in Silverwater more likely, since it will remain a PT black spot otherwise. I like that both ides of the river will now have rail transport.

I think, flawed though it may be, they will opt for the 12 station option. My pick for stations are Parramatta Square, Camellia, Silverwater, Olympic Park, Concord West, Major's Bay (Concord), Canada Bay, Five Dock, Lilyfield, Rozelle Bay...I'm unsure about Pyrmont and the city stations
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Old October 18th, 2017, 01:04 PM   #1543
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Yes, I agree. I think this definitely means there will be a station at Newington/ Silverwater (Under Holker St) and at Camellia.

I also think the stabling and maintenance facility for the West Metro will be built on old industrial land between these two stops.
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Old October 18th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #1544
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Particularly since a large stretch of it does already have 6+ tracks, including 6 platforms at Clyde of all places!
I will go against the grain and say converting Homebush to Parramatta to 6 tracks would be way too expensive to do above ground, even 15 years ago. I don't think much of it is 6 tracks currently once you're past Homebush? A bit around Clyde for the Carlingford line and the workshops but not where its needed to make this viable. So we get the 3rd track pair in the form of an underground tunnel called the West Metro.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 01:09 AM   #1545
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I will go against the grain and say converting Homebush to Parramatta to 6 tracks would be way too expensive to do above ground, even 15 years ago. I don't think much of it is 6 tracks currently once you're past Homebush? A bit around Clyde for the Carlingford line and the workshops but not where its needed to make this viable. So we get the 3rd track pair in the form of an underground tunnel called the West Metro.
I thought I blocked you. I shouldn't have to read your tosh
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Old October 19th, 2017, 07:23 AM   #1546
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Blocking people with opinions that differ to yours is a bit childish, isn't it?
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Old October 19th, 2017, 07:42 AM   #1547
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Blocking people with opinions that differ to yours is a bit childish, isn't it?
I thought people would be happy to have mutual blocking between me and this poster - keeps us respectively away from getting upset about things.

I won't rekindle the issues.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 07:47 AM   #1548
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I don't follow. What led you to the conclusion that Silverwater would be left out?
I should have thought that the LR going North of the river would make a Metro stop in Silverwater more likely, since it will remain a PT black spot otherwise. I like that both ides of the river will now have rail transport.

I think, flawed though it may be, they will opt for the 12 station option. My pick for stations are Parramatta Square, Camellia, Silverwater, Olympic Park, Concord West, Major's Bay (Concord), Canada Bay, Five Dock, Lilyfield, Rozelle Bay...I'm unsure about Pyrmont and the city stations
Good analysis, but I lean to the Zoom view, that we are already behind the 8 ball needing multiple such routes.

One is the superfast route that integrates the functions of Sydney CBD and Parra CBD. It is also the one that enables a proper HS network to Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra, Brisbane and Melbourne.

The second is a north of river route that relieves Victoria Rd (which the light rail will deliver)

The third is the south of river all stops route that makes the likes of Silverwater, Camellia, Five Dock etc viable for massive redevelopment.

Separate from these, is effectively a reorganisation of the legacy network that delivers all stops services between Sydney and Parramatta via the local lines. This is the one that would have benefited from using the Lidcombe Granville sextuplication. West Metro, in that sense, is completely irrelevant.
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Old October 19th, 2017, 09:13 AM   #1549
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Blocking people with opinions that differ to yours is a bit childish, isn't it?
The interesting part is that it seems the Government agrees with me too, the only close to recent proposal to add a third track pair to this corridor that I am aware of (that didn't involve an all new Metro line) still involved using a tunnel, the Parramatta to Croydon Sydney Trains tunnel. Due to the huge coats, difficulty with implementation and community backlash. Even if it wasn't for these issues I cant see why you would do all that and use what is in reality a poor alignment, build a better modern alignment. As Zoom would say, tunnel it! Its not like it should have stations either. However if Lord Ricardo states that is not the case then it must be so...
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Old October 20th, 2017, 05:24 AM   #1550
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The interesting part is that it seems the Government agrees with me too, the only close to recent proposal to add a third track pair to this corridor that I am aware of (that didn't involve an all new Metro line) still involved using a tunnel, the Parramatta to Croydon Sydney Trains tunnel. Due to the huge coats, difficulty with implementation and community backlash. Even if it wasn't for these issues I cant see why you would do all that and use what is in reality a poor alignment, build a better modern alignment. As Zoom would say, tunnel it! Its not like it should have stations either. However if Lord Ricardo states that is not the case then it must be so...
Not going to bite. Back on block you go!
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Old October 20th, 2017, 06:17 AM   #1551
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Not going to bite. Back on block you go!
Do the rest of us care?
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Old October 20th, 2017, 06:28 AM   #1552
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I think the Parramatta Light Rail is giving us definite clues as to where the stations for the West Metro will probably be, but I don't have enough autism to work it out.

Maybe one of you guys can help?
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Old October 20th, 2017, 06:44 AM   #1553
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Good analysis, but I lean to the Zoom view, that we are already behind the 8 ball needing multiple such routes.



One is the superfast route that integrates the functions of Sydney CBD and Parra CBD. It is also the one that enables a proper HS network to Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra, Brisbane and Melbourne.



The second is a north of river route that relieves Victoria Rd (which the light rail will deliver)



The third is the south of river all stops route that makes the likes of Silverwater, Camellia, Five Dock etc viable for massive redevelopment.



Separate from these, is effectively a reorganisation of the legacy network that delivers all stops services between Sydney and Parramatta via the local lines. This is the one that would have benefited from using the Lidcombe Granville sextuplication. West Metro, in that sense, is completely irrelevant.


I totally agree. At some stage in the future, a high speed line needs to be built to connect the three “cities.”

I don’t think the government will do that any time soon. From the drips and drabs we’ve been getting, it would seem that the line they plan to construct in the near term will be small stops line to spur mass densification.

Does anyone have any idea on what route the line will take grouch the CBD? There was talk of a Martin Pl station but I think that was just an idea on here. Do you think it will necessarily go through Central?
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Old October 20th, 2017, 07:05 AM   #1554
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I think the Parramatta Light Rail is giving us definite clues as to where the stations for the West Metro will probably be, but I don't have enough autism to work it out.

Maybe one of you guys can help?
I think it's now clear that the West Metro will have multiple stops rather than being an express style service. I expect that Camellia will be getting a station and Silverwater as well. The change in direction for the light rail may also hint that Strathfield could also get a new Metro stop. So it's starting to look like the original West Metro proposal except going direct to the bays precinct and the Northern CBD instead.
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Old October 20th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #1555
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Do the rest of us care?
Not asking you to. Just pointing out to Ozrails that his attempts to rile me have failed.
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Old October 20th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #1556
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I totally agree. At some stage in the future, a high speed line needs to be built to connect the three “cities.”

I don’t think the government will do that any time soon. From the drips and drabs we’ve been getting, it would seem that the line they plan to construct in the near term will be small stops line to spur mass densification.

Does anyone have any idea on what route the line will take grouch the CBD? There was talk of a Martin Pl station but I think that was just an idea on here. Do you think it will necessarily go through Central?
I hope it is a non-Central station. Having to run every line through Central is just another needless constraint on the system.

If a new line happens to pass through Parra, Strathfield and Martin Place, then it will connect with every Sydney Trains/NSW Trainlink interurban train except the odd train that runs from Central to Moss Vale.
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Old October 20th, 2017, 09:15 AM   #1557
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Not asking you to. Just pointing out to Ozrails that his attempts to rile me have failed.
Wow, he keeps going... My posts are pretty straight forward and not exactly controversial, I would suggest that his rubbish response is because he actually has no argument about what I said because he knows he is wrong. As is so often the case when it comes to actual details.

Im sure some may like his posting but the majority of it is just dribble to me so I have no interest in dialogue with him, let alone waste my time trying to rile him. So no idea where all this comes from.

As far as I'm concerned the sooner he can't see my posts the better! Even though I do find his stupidity mildly amusing, it wastes other forum users time.
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Old October 21st, 2017, 06:44 PM   #1558
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I totally agree. At some stage in the future, a high speed line needs to be built to connect the three “cities.”

I donÂ’t think the government will do that any time soon. From the drips and drabs weÂ’ve been getting, it would seem that the line they plan to construct in the near term will be small stops line to spur mass densification.

Does anyone have any idea on what route the line will take grouch the CBD? There was talk of a Martin Pl station but I think that was just an idea on here. Do you think it will necessarily go through Central?
Just to reiterate something I said a little while ago.

What I think needs to happen is a separate high speed line from the CBD to Parramatta to WSA. Rather than having Metro west itself extended to WSA.

This is how it could happen.

1. Build Metro West. Safeguard the option of an additional line by double decking the Metro West Parramatta station so that you have four platforms (two islands) and fast and easy interchange between the two lines.

2. Build a new rail line between Parramatta Metro West station (other pair of platforms), the Western Sydney Employment Area and another stop near the airport and then WSA itself. The WSA terminal station would feature four platforms and cross platform interchange so you can then hop a platform and get on the train to Leppington or Narellan.

3. When you come to build a HSR network, you extend the fast line from WSA from the platforms it uses at Metro West Parramatta station to the CBD. You have a station in the CBD and you have only one intermediate station which is your HSR interchange station.

Step 2 is a joint Federal/State affair (with some private capital). Basically its considered as part of the investment in WSA Co.

After Step 2, to get from WSA to the CBD means taking a a flight of escalator at Parramatta. That's the least-worst interim arrangement.

Step 3 is scoped and funded within a broader HSR project. So its not TfNSW's problem.

In the end you get the best of all worlds. Freedom to choose whatever stations you want on Metro West and in due course an 11 minute transit from Parramatta to the CBD. You also get shitloads of future capacity. Which is important given all the additional patronage that will come not just for population growth, but also transfer from the SWRL at WSA, growth in the WSEA and a range of other factors.

The other important advantage in having a physically separate line go to WSA is it frees Metro West to interchange at Westmead (providing seamless interchange to T1 whereas seamless interchange to T1 won't happen in Parramatta) and it allows Metro West to be extended using an existing track pair to Blacktown and then St Marys. The end result is a doubling of capacity exactly where its going to be needed, west of Parramatta.


On the issue of Central. I don't think it necessarily has to go to Central, though it could and one of the reasons it could is that it would be relatively straightforward to build a new pair of platforms, Sydney Metro style and extending Central Walk one step further west. I've also put forward the option of extending it from there to Sydney Uni.

Certainly what you need is for Metro West to go to the CBD before going to Central. I've seen arguments for and against Martin Place, including the argument that the Council doesn't like the idea. However I think it would work fine. There are other east-west aligned station possibilities that involve splitting the line so that eastbound goes under one street and westbound goes under another street. However you would think that they would try to get a neat interchange going with Sydney Metro and if that's not Martin Place then it has to be Sydney Metro Pitt Street.

One available option is a north-south aligned station sitting right next to the eastern side of Town Hall station. Much of this site is already slated to become a Town Square and its not impossible to knock down the Ausgrid building and put something taller in its place. This would interchange well with Sydney Metro Pitt and it would create a bunch of new underground retail/pedestrian space.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 02:28 AM   #1559
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Just to reiterate something I said a little while ago.

What I think needs to happen is a separate high speed line from the CBD to Parramatta to WSA. Rather than having Metro west itself extended to WSA.

This is how it could happen.

1. Build Metro West. Safeguard the option of an additional line by double decking the Metro West Parramatta station so that you have four platforms (two islands) and fast and easy interchange between the two lines.

2. Build a new rail line between Parramatta Metro West station (other pair of platforms), the Western Sydney Employment Area and another stop near the airport and then WSA itself. The WSA terminal station would feature four platforms and cross platform interchange so you can then hop a platform and get on the train to Leppington or Narellan.

3. When you come to build a HSR network, you extend the fast line from WSA from the platforms it uses at Metro West Parramatta station to the CBD. You have a station in the CBD and you have only one intermediate station which is your HSR interchange station.

Step 2 is a joint Federal/State affair (with some private capital). Basically its considered as part of the investment in WSA Co.

After Step 2, to get from WSA to the CBD means taking a a flight of escalator at Parramatta. That's the least-worst interim arrangement.

Step 3 is scoped and funded within a broader HSR project. So its not TfNSW's problem.

In the end you get the best of all worlds. Freedom to choose whatever stations you want on Metro West and in due course an 11 minute transit from Parramatta to the CBD. You also get shitloads of future capacity. Which is important given all the additional patronage that will come not just for population growth, but also transfer from the SWRL at WSA, growth in the WSEA and a range of other factors.

The other important advantage in having a physically separate line go to WSA is it frees Metro West to interchange at Westmead (providing seamless interchange to T1 whereas seamless interchange to T1 won't happen in Parramatta) and it allows Metro West to be extended using an existing track pair to Blacktown and then St Marys. The end result is a doubling of capacity exactly where its going to be needed, west of Parramatta.


On the issue of Central. I don't think it necessarily has to go to Central, though it could and one of the reasons it could is that it would be relatively straightforward to build a new pair of platforms, Sydney Metro style and extending Central Walk one step further west. I've also put forward the option of extending it from there to Sydney Uni.

Certainly what you need is for Metro West to go to the CBD before going to Central. I've seen arguments for and against Martin Place, including the argument that the Council doesn't like the idea. However I think it would work fine. There are other east-west aligned station possibilities that involve splitting the line so that eastbound goes under one street and westbound goes under another street. However you would think that they would try to get a neat interchange going with Sydney Metro and if that's not Martin Place then it has to be Sydney Metro Pitt Street.

One available option is a north-south aligned station sitting right next to the eastern side of Town Hall station. Much of this site is already slated to become a Town Square and its not impossible to knock down the Ausgrid building and put something taller in its place. This would interchange well with Sydney Metro Pitt and it would create a bunch of new underground retail/pedestrian space.
Do you think it might be a good idea for the proposed Metro West (Pitt) after it reaches Barangaroo to continue on to a new underground station under Alfred Street at Circular Quay? The City Circle could be under-grounded at the same time. This would provide a great transport interchange for the northern end of the City and if the barrier of the Cahill Expressway and overhead railway is removed, re-connect the city to the harbour.
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Old October 22nd, 2017, 04:54 AM   #1560
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Do you think it might be a good idea for the proposed Metro West (Pitt) after it reaches Barangaroo to continue on to a new underground station under Alfred Street at Circular Quay? The City Circle could be under-grounded at the same time. This would provide a great transport interchange for the northern end of the City and if the barrier of the Cahill Expressway and overhead railway is removed, re-connect the city to the harbour.
Can you explain that a bit more? From where to where to where?

I'd like to see Circular Quay station undergrounded but its tricky. The best option I can come up with involves reclaiming the southern end (about 70-90m) of CQ and putting a new station there underneath a new public square.

I can cope with the idea of getting rid of the Cahill and just keeping CQ station and tarting it up.

What I can't figure is how Metro West would come into this.
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