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Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM   #18581
passiv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon10 View Post
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So, it's seven platforms at B'ham Curzon Street. (Did we think it was going to be six?)
Plans c2013 showed it with seven.
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Old Yesterday, 10:44 PM   #18582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon10
.
So, it's seven platforms at B'ham Curzon Street. (Did we think it was going to be six?)



Quote:
Originally Posted by passiv View Post
Plans c2013 showed it with seven.

IMHO it will need all seven.

Confirmed:

3x Euston
2x Leeds (direct)
2x Manchester
1x Scotland
1x Newcastle

Possible?

At least 1x Sheffield
At least 1x Liverpool (in time)

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Old Yesterday, 11:02 PM   #18583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Possible?

At least 1x Sheffield
At least 1x Liverpool (in time)
Assuming that the Sheffield service is a separate train to the 2 trains from Leeds due to the nature of the changes made to their route, may I ask why you believe that this city should get a direct Birmingham service right away, and not Liverpool?

Additionally, there are many more passengers between Birmingham and Liverpool than Birmingham and Leeds, in fact according to more up to date information from a few years back it was up to almost as many as between Birmingham and Manchester (which gets 2 tph). Even if the trains were to be classic compatible from Leeds via Sheffield (which so far they are not mooted to be), given the low forecast loading levels on these services even when including Sheffield, may I ask why you don't at the very least recommend 1 x Leeds -> Birmingham and 1 x Liverpool -> Birmingham?

How much time would Liverpool have to wait before it is eventually provided for? Is there a multiplier of normal provision applied that we can at least have sight of so that we can gauge when to expect standard service provision in our own city?
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Old Yesterday, 11:16 PM   #18584
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Originally Posted by Centurio View Post
may I ask why you believe that this city should get a direct Birmingham service right away, and not Liverpool?

may I ask why you don't at the very least recommend 1 x Leeds -> Birmingham and 1 x Liverpool -> Birmingham?
You will note I put both under Possible? - meaning these services are not confirmed in a service pattern published by HS2 Ltd.

It has got nothing to do with my personal preferences. HS2 Ltd has raised the possibility of Sheffield - Brum HS2 services - continuing onwards. It has not mentioned Liverpool - Brum HS2 services. However in my mind, I think that in time it will be obvious to the TOC running HS2 that a fast Liverpool - Curzon St service in about an hour (stopping at Runcorn and Crewe) will be well worth doing.

So: are you now moaning because I am suggesting the inclusion of Liverpool - Brum HS2 services? FFS!
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Old Today, 12:39 AM   #18585
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What is Birmingham - Liverpool demand like? The current service isn't even 'inter city' standard, and seems more for the benefit of the smaller towns and connections than much end-to-end volume.
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Old Today, 06:23 AM   #18586
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I haven't been able to go through all of Vulcan's posts (although I'm sure I'd agree with them), but if it hasn't already been mentioned, let's not forget that the Manchester Airport interchange station is a huge draw for Manchester getting a dedicated path and the inward investment from it through better international connectivity and market growth will be quite favourable for Liverpool as well. You can't play a game of treating investment in Manchester vs Liverpool as a zero-sum situation while ignoring that much of it is organic growth.
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Old Today, 09:04 AM   #18587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoking66 View Post
I haven't been able to go through all of Vulcan's posts (although I'm sure I'd agree with them), but if it hasn't already been mentioned, let's not forget that the Manchester Airport interchange station is a huge draw for Manchester getting a dedicated path and the inward investment from it through better international connectivity and market growth will be quite favourable for Liverpool as well. You can't play a game of treating investment in Manchester vs Liverpool as a zero-sum situation while ignoring that much of it is organic growth.
How much propaganda do you want to fit in one post??

If you want to see "Organic growth" then you'd be better off looking at Liverpool, which - despite the lack of the billions of Pounds of public sector infrastructure investment over the past two decades that Manchester has had - still manages to cling on in the face of a determined attempt to abstract its economy out of it. The GVA of Manchester has hardly soared away from the pack to compensate yet, despite any of this.

Manchester Airport as a HS2 "huge draw".. In fact, HS2's documents stated that it has only a marginal business case, and furthermore that only minor assumption changes tipped that business case into negative territory. On top of that it will require many millions more in order to bridge the gap between HS2 station and airport. The case for the stop is so whimsical it had to be pretty much dressed up in the sort of subjective-view-cast-as-essential argument that you described above. While the rest of us beggared belief at the sheer hypocrisy.

Yes of course it will be dressed up as "enabling growth" and that we all should cheer for supposedly it is good for us too. Indeed I wouldn't begrudge it at all if it wasn't for the constant obstacles placed in the way of our own growth, and that when we argue that proper provision for us would unleash growth we are told that this is an irrelevance. I feel it's fair to say that billions of Pounds of opportunity in our region have already been wrecked, without a single chain of track being laid.

It would be great not to have to view investment as a zero sum game, unfortunately it's the "game" which is repeatedly being forced upon us. It might be a game to some, but its negative effects are real - and unnecessary.
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Old Today, 10:38 AM   #18588
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A Third Way? – Village Response to HS2 is published
(Alternative takes 24 seconds longer)



http://packington.info/bloggle/a-thi...-is-published/

Audio:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p050yz79

.
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Old Today, 02:15 PM   #18589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio View Post

Manchester Airport as a HS2 "huge draw".. In fact, HS2's documents stated that it has only a marginal business case, and furthermore that only minor assumption changes tipped that business case into negative territory. On top of that it will require many millions more in order to bridge the gap between HS2 station and airport. The case for the stop is so whimsical it had to be pretty much dressed up in the sort of subjective-view-cast-as-essential argument that you described above. While the rest of us beggared belief at the sheer hypocrisy.
Dear me! The jealousy really is eating you up isn't it?

You seem fixated on the airport issue, but in reality the main role of this station I suspect is to offer a park and ride railhead for the approximately 1.1 million passengers who currently join Virgin services at Stockport and Wilmslow. If just half of them switch it will be worth doing.
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Old Today, 02:46 PM   #18590
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Today I learned that inferring that a high-speed rail station that connects to the UK's largest airport outside of London with passenger growth of 10.8pc over the year and the ability to nearly double its capacity and provide for a significant increase in international connections and logistics capabilities at a significant discount to Heathrow would be a smart move for HS2 planning is propaganda.

The more you know.
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Old Today, 02:54 PM   #18591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoking66 View Post
Today I learned that inferring that a high-speed rail station that connects to the UK's largest airport outside of London with passenger growth of 10.8pc over the year and the ability to nearly double its capacity and provide for a significant increase in international connections and logistics capabilities at a significant discount to Heathrow would be a smart move for HS2 planning is propaganda.

The more you know.
Shame its existing station usage hasn't kept pace, despite that certainly the number of passenger services ordered to call there has grown constantly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manche...irport_station

I can't help that HS2 said it only had a marginal case, and I can't help that you managed to compact an awful lot of guff into such a short space (of which your remarks about the airport were just one).
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Old Today, 03:00 PM   #18592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
You seem fixated on the airport issue, but in reality the main role of this station I suspect is to offer a park and ride railhead for the approximately 1.1 million passengers who currently join Virgin services at Stockport and Wilmslow. If just half of them switch it will be worth doing.
Which is odd really, given that the moving of the Runcorn stop to a place north of the river is deemed unacceptable, when the research showed that large numbers of people using Runcorn were already travelling to it from that area. In that case, moving the station a few miles (to a place more easily accessible for many) is a no-no..

The only consistent element of the "alternative facts" supporting HS2 seem to be the inconsistent way that arguments are applied, purely dependent on whether you support or oppose something.
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Old Today, 03:04 PM   #18593
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What is Birmingham - Liverpool demand like? The current service isn't even 'inter city' standard, and seems more for the benefit of the smaller towns and connections than much end-to-end volume.
That is difficult to answer because there doesn't seem to be any recent figures released by the DFT. In the 2011 West Coast RUS by network rail a table of non-London journey pairings showed 140,000 a year, presumably taken from the 2009-2010 figures. That worked out as a paltry 193 passengers a day each way. The Birmingham to Manchester. figures were better but not very impressive at 330,000 a year.

Of course since then the London Midland service has doubled in frequency and general rail passenger growth would probably uplift those figures by around 30 percent. But even so the notion of filling 532-seat trains every hour seems fanciful. I believe it will be necessary to look again at the size of the trains needed for the regional HS2 workings from Brum to Manchester or Leeds. 125 or 150 metre long trains may be more appropriate. The cost savings realised by using these shorter and less expensive trains could create a business case for services to Sheffield, Liverpool and perhaps Nottingham.
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Old Today, 03:20 PM   #18594
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Which is odd really, given that the moving of the Runcorn stop to a place north of the river is deemed unacceptable, when the research showed that large numbers of people using Runcorn were already travelling to it from that area. In that case, moving the station a few miles (to a place more easily accessible for many) is a no-no..

The only consistent element of the "alternative facts" supporting HS2 seem to be the inconsistent way that arguments are applied, purely dependent on whether you support or oppose something.
What is odd is that you clearly begrudge several hundred million spent on MAP station to serve a market of 1.1 million, then you demand the nation coughs up £3 billion to create a Liverpool spur serving a market of 1.35 million. I can only assume you believe your own city deserves preferential treatment.

Replacing Runcorn with a railhead north of Warrington on the Culcheth route would not serve any worthwhile market and would force current Runcorn users to catch HS2 trains from Crewe.
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Old Today, 03:26 PM   #18595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio View Post
Shame its existing station usage hasn't kept pace, despite that certainly the number of passenger services ordered to call there has grown constantly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manche...irport_station

I can't help that HS2 said it only had a marginal case, and I can't help that you managed to compact an awful lot of guff into such a short space (of which your remarks about the airport were just one).
So from 2014 to 2015; Manchster airport increased passenger numbers by 5.2%, while the Airport Station increased passenger numbers by 5.8%

(numbers from Wikipedia, I'm afraid. But I have no reason to doubt them)

How then has the station usage not kept pace?
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