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Old January 22nd, 2014, 07:10 AM   #41
densitymatters
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Noho's facebook page recently posted some new aerial photographs. I'm scratching my head looking at this massive **** up, It's embarrassing! WHy could't they just build a simple complex like Modera in Westshore, or even a freakin vintage lofts, but this POS, Geez... I'm not even asking for retail just a standard urban design.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:03 PM   #42
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Yup, I think I just threw up a little…


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:33 PM   #43
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Cause that's Tampa! Where anything built cheaply can get away.
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Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:54 PM   #44
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I disagree that this isn't a good project.

They along with Vintage are taking a huge risk jumping into the wasteland of warehouses and small residential homes.

You can't look at this and not appreciate the amount of density they are bringing to that area. Like it or not, its here and the style of it looks great.

Also, you cant really expect retail in every residential project, its just not feasible and if you compare this to all the other apartment buildings up in New Tampa or anywhere out of the immediate downtown, the density of the units is probably only on 25% of the land those other complex' use.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 05:17 PM   #45
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I'm not concerned about the lack of retail, as I wasn't even expecting any to begin with. The part I am concerned with and I think many on here agree with, is the overall lack of density of this project. It's a huge misuse of the land and as a result we ended up with this sprawling like complex with parking lots.

Personally, I would have at least like to have seen it been built with a little more density, say similar to Vintage Lofts or even Encore, where the parking is in multi-level garages and then more units could have been built.

Heck that long lot on on the bottom of that picture, could have easily been built like Modera in Westshore was.

But at the end of the day, it all boils down to costs for the developer.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 05:36 PM   #46
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It's just a sea of cheap cracker jack boxes that should be in the suburbs, not there. The surface parking totally sucks.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 06:34 PM   #47
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It's going to suck even more should single family homes be built on some of those empty lots
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Old January 24th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #48
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It sounds like many here are 'investors' in these projects. Why would anyone care if these are made of wood? Concrete is so expensive to build and if done right, wood frame is just fine.

Parking garages cost alot to build and why do they need to build so dense when a 1.5 mile radius around this property is mostly single family homes and 1 story warehouse units.

This is a huge step up in density and for the next 10 years seems to be plenty dense IMO.

Too much density can take away from the quality of living by the residents. Maybe we should consider other points of view and factors when it comes to these type of projects.

The developers know what they are doing with their investments and will attract residents.
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Old January 24th, 2014, 10:55 PM   #49
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Just wondering... How long have you lived in this area?
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Old January 25th, 2014, 01:02 AM   #50
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P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian72 View Post
It sounds like many here are 'investors' in these projects. Why would anyone care if these are made of wood? Concrete is so expensive to build and if done right, wood frame is just fine.
They care because one can be converted to owner occupied units & one is very difficult to do so.

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Parking garages cost alot to build and why do they need to build so dense when a 1.5 mile radius around this property is mostly single family homes and 1 story warehouse units.
Hahahahahahahahahaha. Draw a 1.5 mile radius around this property again it contains the densest census block in Tampa, the two tallest and densest residential building, the upcoming third densest, the north boulevard homes redevelopment area, the two highest traffic roads in Tampa, anyone matter what kind of transit we'll build it includes it.

Now if you draw a 1.5 block radius, you may be right, except of course there would be other apartments. So you still wouldn't be. As for parking if we got rid of govt regulation, you'd see more garages. It's the insistence on the ratio & size that usually makes the myopic view this way. That said, surface parking leaves money on the table.

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This is a huge step up in density and for the next 10 years seems to be plenty dense IMO.
Next ten years? Does this mean you believe that 1) the redevelopment won't happen 2) believe that demand isn't there? 3) this will go away by then?

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Too much density can take away from the quality of living by the residents. Maybe we should consider other points of view and factors when it comes to these type of projects..
Huh? Again look at a map, walk the streets. This area is 10 blocks from downtown, three blocks from UT, & next to the busiest section of freeway in central florida.

The only factor is it's a safe bet, the banks will lend, they will be able to charge $1,300 to $1,800 for crap because demand far far outstrips supply. And they'll sell the building to an investment portfolio for way more than they paid for it.

The community will be stuck with street grids broken & less density than was profitable. The property market is slow so the equilibrium takes decades to work itself out in the meantime the community misses out.

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The developers know what they are doing with their investments and will attract residents.
You really think all developers always know what they are doing? Wow

The point is we know they will rent every unit, we also know they could rent double the number of those units on the same land and make even more money.
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Old January 25th, 2014, 01:43 AM   #51
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^As usual, K-man pretty much said it all.

Just to add though... I wouldn't have expected much retail either. The neighborhood is still just beginning to gentrify. But there should have at least been some mix of uses. 2-3 spots would have offered some amenities to the growing neighborhood. Office space might have done better than people might expect. The mix of uses should be required in urban areas like this. Especially ones designated by the long range plan as the landing spot for many of the projected 600,000 people who will move into Hillsborough County over the next 35 years or so.

The same thing happened with Modera in Westshore. Very lame that project was permitted to be built as single use.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 07:57 AM   #52
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I will say that it is nearly impossible to have affordable housing AND parking garages AND be built out of concrete. It's hard. I would like to see a more urban design here without surface parking lots fronting the streets but it is difficult to create affordable options for living at this point in urban areas when we expect garages at every new complex. However, hopefully as time goes on we will see additional density on the property with a garage and retail when the neighborhood is built out. In the end though, this was a poor design with surface parking lots fronting the street there.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #53
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Mixed-use developments should get parking credits.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 08:43 PM   #54
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Quote:
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Mixed-use developments should get parking credits.
This would be nice. Code changes are needed throughout this town especially concerning parking.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 09:08 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A. View Post
This would be nice. Code changes are needed throughout this town especially concerning parking.
Exactly. I wish we'd create a code that allows people to trade parking costs with transit subsidies some sort of connection. Tampa isn't the place to eliminate parking regs -- though I wish we could. Dumbest idea we ever invented in zoning.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 11:03 PM   #56
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Lol. that's funny. get a new code in tampa . . . even if they had a new one, it would be full of loopholes and people would just get variances. politicians need a method to get donations, you know.
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Old January 26th, 2014, 11:52 PM   #57
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^Funny how virtually all of the 'rules' they create to regulate development always have a magical way for politicians to override it all.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 04:07 AM   #58
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Fair enough, but I can put that blame right back on the people who insist on making extravagant claims and assign disgusting motives to politicians. Which you do on your blog regularly smiley. The political game is not just created by the politicians or wvfn the monied interests.

But on to the topic that matters. Reduction in parking regulations would eliminate the possibly of variances unless you're also talking about a maximum # of spaces. I am generally in favor of all reduction of parking requirements it's another induced demand. The market can figure out what people need if they want fewer spaces. The politicians don't give variances on that often because special interests groups made up of coffee clutches in west south Tampa, Sem heights, etc get angry when someone wants to build apartments or retail and the first statement is "not enough parking"
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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:26 AM   #59
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This project has surface parking because the developer wanted surface parking: http://tbo.com/local/communitynewsmo...de-park-406244

It had nothing to do with the neighbors, who also did not want Gray street closed, which the developer requested.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:49 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmthurman View Post
They care because one can be converted to owner occupied units & one is very difficult to do so.

Why would you want to convert these to owner occupied? That was a disaster only lead by the false sense of lending. A large portion of our population not only can't qualify for long term lending, many do not seem to want ownership and the hassles that go with it. These are apartments by design and should in no way be assumed to become anything other.

Perhaps easier to tear down should something better come in the future.


Hahahahahahahahahaha. Draw a 1.5 mile radius around this property again it contains the densest census block in Tampa, the two tallest and densest residential building, the upcoming third densest, the north boulevard homes redevelopment area, the two highest traffic roads in Tampa, anyone matter what kind of transit we'll build it includes it.

Now if you draw a 1.5 block radius, you may be right, except of course there would be other apartments. So you still wouldn't be. As for parking if we got rid of govt regulation, you'd see more garages. It's the insistence on the ratio & size that usually makes the myopic view this way. That said, surface parking leaves money on the table.

Aside from your childish beginning, I will reply. I have driven the area and if you want to get technical, fine but we all know what is around there and its chuck full of single families and small buildings. Let's say 1.5 mile diameter then. That is a large enough scale to cover the neighborhood in any area.


Next ten years? Does this mean you believe that 1) the redevelopment won't happen 2) believe that demand isn't there? 3) this will go away by then?

All I am saying is that, this is a blighted area. These (2) projects have added significant density in their projects. I don't believe the demand is much more than the amount of units already planned, there will need to be significant improvements in the surrounding area to include more shopping and park areas for much more development. There are apartments going up all over, with such high competition, that begs the question of how much more will happen at Rome and Cypress after the Lofts are done?



Huh? Again look at a map, walk the streets. This area is 10 blocks from downtown, three blocks from UT, & next to the busiest section of freeway in central florida.

10 blocks means nothing, you can go 10 blocks from any dense area and find yourself in a suburb somewhere. There are similar older neighborhoods located the same distance from downtown. The point is, the surrounding area is still a wasteland and you wouldn't go for walk (2) blocks from the complex at night! 10 blocks is a long way when you consider the neighborhood.

The only factor is it's a safe bet, the banks will lend, they will be able to charge $1,300 to $1,800 for crap because demand far far outstrips supply. And they'll sell the building to an investment portfolio for way more than they paid for it.

The community will be stuck with street grids broken & less density than was profitable. The property market is slow so the equilibrium takes decades to work itself out in the meantime the community misses out.

The city is gaining a huge tax increase with these developments, stop complaining about what could have been and look at the surrounding area to complain about. Punish the leaders in this country and the do nothings get a pass?

You really think all developers always know what they are doing? Wow

Developers have a team of people in various departments make decisions on what is feasible. It is not always easy to predict what will work out best in the end but I do believe most know what they are doing and what is profitable. They certainly don't share the worries of the few here and do things because they think its right, even our politicians don't do that, seriously?

The point is we know they will rent every unit, we also know they could rent double the number of those units on the same land and make even more money.
Why do you even care if they could build double the units? If they had the funds or lending, maybe they would have.

Complain about the crap boxes located in the area and tell us how they could do something to better the city.

I will go on record and say both of these are great projects and am proud they have taken the risk in that neighborhood.
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