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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:53 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
^As usual, K-man pretty much said it all.

Just to add though... I wouldn't have expected much retail either. The neighborhood is still just beginning to gentrify. But there should have at least been some mix of uses. 2-3 spots would have offered some amenities to the growing neighborhood. Office space might have done better than people might expect. The mix of uses should be required in urban areas like this. Especially ones designated by the long range plan as the landing spot for many of the projected 600,000 people who will move into Hillsborough County over the next 35 years or so.

The same thing happened with Modera in Westshore. Very lame that project was permitted to be built as single use.
What is up with the mixed use requirement? That only works on occasion, certainly not in this area. There aren't enough surrounding residents to support it. Of course kmthurman would have you believe this is Manhattan...

You may think I am arguing with some of you, the fact is, your a bunch of complainers and aside from pointing out your flawed mindset, I rarely have a complaint about a project and usually very optimistic. Perhaps you should look at your posts, everyone is just a piss and moan about someone or something.

Typical liberal, don't tell me what to do but let's make the movers and shakers have to do what ever we want with their money.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #62
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I hate all the cheap boxes being built everywhere, but with the economy the way it is right now, having junk boxes is better than having empty lots (and specifically parking lots) everywhere.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #63
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It's just a sea of cheap cracker jack boxes that should be in the suburbs, not there. The surface parking totally sucks.

You really can't see the great benefit to the area?

Buildings are built like this all over including the SOHO project.

They hid most of the parking, perhaps they should build them like every other apartment in Tampa with parking surrounding each building.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:57 PM   #64
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I hate all the cheap boxes being built everywhere, but with the economy the way it is right now, having junk boxes is better than having empty lots (and specifically parking lots) everywhere.
Just curious, is it considered cheap because they are built as wood frame?

How would they be better built? I assume concrete is what some want but the cost seem prohibitive for the type of residential structures and size.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 05:59 PM   #65
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Just wondering... How long have you lived in this area?
1984 and have been in the construction industry since 94.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:02 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A. View Post
I will say that it is nearly impossible to have affordable housing AND parking garages AND be built out of concrete. It's hard. I would like to see a more urban design here without surface parking lots fronting the streets but it is difficult to create affordable options for living at this point in urban areas when we expect garages at every new complex. However, hopefully as time goes on we will see additional density on the property with a garage and retail when the neighborhood is built out. In the end though, this was a poor design with surface parking lots fronting the street there.
Nice points, the street parking is more for visitors and general parking I imagine, similar to Madison at Soho.

You have to have street parking, but at least the majority is placed in areas behind the buildings.

I agree, you can't have it all and in this economy, its just starting to recover and it is still very uncertain.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:11 PM   #67
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Mixed-use developments should get parking credits.
Why reward this?

Have you lived in a place that has a restaurant in the complex? If your lucky, the smell of the food is something you like but the trash will always stink.

Likewise, most mixed use need more parking separate from the spaces used for residents.

Office space? We have so much already, what advantage to a resident is there to have offices in their complex?

If you live in a single family home, would you want your neighbors home to become a laundry mat or Kinko's or even a lawyers office?

Why would an apartment dweller want that? It is their home and I am sure the mixed use works great on a nicely dense pedestrian street but places like this have zero need for it.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:29 PM   #68
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Why reward this?
Because a certain percent of mixed use "traffic" will be on foot, meaning a restraunt in Skypoint needs less parking than one off I-75. It's logic, why not remove the tax on business.

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Have you lived in a place that has a restaurant in the complex? If your lucky, the smell of the food is something you like but the trash will always stink.
I do right now I live above six actually. And aside from Five Guys none of them ever smell (& it only makes me hungry) & trash is gone daily. Not everyone's cup of tea, but why limit this option and stifle market competition? Why impose fees that aren't necessary that reward providing less choice.

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Likewise, most mixed use need more parking separate from the spaces used for residents.
Oh man one day people will stop pretending that every human needs a car. Some parking will need to be separate it mixed use will also require less parking per use because many will approach on foot. Both resident & retail won't need as many car trips there.

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Office space? We have so much already, what advantage to a resident is there to have offices in their complex?
Actually that specific neighborhood sits less than 5 miles from the two largest collections office space in the region next to a university with one of the best entrepreneurship programs, & between a port & an airport. So it would make sense someone might want to place offices there for lower rent compared to both. Also they are both approaching the highest level of occupancy in decades.

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If you live in a single family home, would you want your neighbors home to become a laundry mat or Kinko's or even a lawyers office?
Maybe, maybe not. I would, others like you wouldn't I suppose. But I'd rather live next to one than not have any retail within waking distance. Also they already live blocks from a university, three housing projects, antique dealers, contractors, walmart, & half dozen fast food places. Not are they'd care it's not New Tampa. And we want balance & choice in the market place.

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Why would an apartment dweller want that? It is their home and I am sure the mixed use works great on a nicely dense pedestrian street but places like this have zero need for it.
I don't even know where to begin. What makes a dense pedestrian street? Seriously my response to this contained in the post I made earlier that you didn't actually respond to.
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Last edited by kmthurman; January 27th, 2014 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:05 PM   #69
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What is up with the mixed use requirement? That only works on occasion, certainly not in this area. There aren't enough surrounding residents to support it. Of course kmthurman would have you believe this is Manhattan...

You may think I am arguing with some of you, the fact is, your a bunch of complainers and aside from pointing out your flawed mindset, I rarely have a complaint about a project and usually very optimistic. Perhaps you should look at your posts, everyone is just a piss and moan about someone or something.

Typical liberal, don't tell me what to do but let's make the movers and shakers have to do what ever we want with their money.
Actually no one said requirement. There are three complaints about the property made: flexibility of use, diversity of use, k use of public land for surface parking.

Mannhattan -- if I heard everyone invoke that city as the only place with mixed use urban development. Tampa is not Manhattan, Tampa is Tampa. However, because of that this property is actually very unique and instead of pretending that a mixed use building won't work "certainly not in the area" I actually look at where it sits not & don't pretend it's river view.

It sits next to the third busiest stretch of freeway in The 3rd largest state. It sits blocks from the largest square mile of employment in central florida, it sits less than 4 miles from the from the regions largest airport, it sits on two bus lines, and most importantly next to a private university full of students that move off campus because they don have enough room to house them.

Just like I have a right to wish that a restaurant improve their food, a director make a better movie, for Ford a better car, i can say I think these developers left money on the table and I wish they made a better product. That banks aren't optimistic enough about the area. That people make decisions based on fundamentally flawed data. And finally I can sit on this forum and wish people like you didn't make blanket statements and feel self satisfied that your argument is correct without any facts. So please leave your posts of name calling, politics, and very little actual argument for why is is the best possible use of this site. Just admit you don't like the people here & leave. Or continue to be the sad old man trolling people.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #70
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Just curious, is it considered cheap because they are built as wood frame?

How would they be better built? I assume concrete is what some want but the cost seem prohibitive for the type of residential structures and size.
Yes fundamental to the arguments is they they should be larger in size, do you have a reading comprehension or a memory problem. I literally said that and you repeated it. Hence concrete would no longer be cost prohibitive.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Brian72 View Post
You really can't see the great benefit to the area?

Buildings are built like this all over including the SOHO project.

They hid most of the parking, perhaps they should build them like every other apartment in Tampa with parking surrounding each building.
Dude research, research. The SOHO project while built of wood (which I care far less about than others) has a parking garage, not surface lot.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:16 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by smiley View Post
This project has surface parking because the developer wanted surface parking: http://tbo.com/local/communitynewsmo...de-park-406244

It had nothing to do with the neighbors, who also did not want Gray street closed, which the developer requested.
Yes but they would have done less parking period if they weren't required to build as many & as large of spaces.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:51 PM   #73
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Because a certain percent of mixed use "traffic" will be on foot, meaning a restraunt in Skypoint needs less parking than one off I-75. It's logic, why not remove the tax on business.

How is it fare to offer a tax credit for mixed retail? I am not arguing, just trying to wrap my head around how its fare is all. These areas usually don't need tax credits, they are going to build mixed retail if it works. Giving a tax credit could lead to a bunch of unwanted empty retails in places that technically have the density but not the right location.

I do right now I live above six actually. And aside from Five Guys none of them ever smell (& it only makes me hungry) & trash is gone daily. Not everyone's cup of tea, but why limit this option and stifle market competition? Why impose fees that aren't necessary that reward providing less choice.

Anise is the best, hard to believe the exist side by side. Look forward to going back there soon.

Oh man one day people will stop pretending that every human needs a car. Some parking will need to be separate it mixed use will also require less parking per use because many will approach on foot. Both resident & retail won't need as many car trips there.

Tampa was built around the car, we might have small pockets of pedestriable ( coined word ) areas but it will be a long time before we convert to public transit here. I love NYC and the city streets and hope Tampa's can eventually turn the corner from empty streets to a bustling downtown.

Actually that specific neighborhood sits less than 5 miles from the two largest collections office space in the region next to a university with one of the best entrepreneurship programs, & between a port & an airport. So it would make sense someone might want to place offices there for lower rent compared to both. Also they are both approaching the highest level of occupancy in decades.

I don't disagree with that at all and offer this, we need more residents to make everything else possible. If not this project or the next, there is 100's of acres around ripe for development and perhaps that will have the mixed use. It seems more important IMO to get more residents, especially apartments in downtown. My only real concerns about mixed retail is the lack of tenants. Nothing worse than a bunch of empty storefronts to blight a street.

Maybe, maybe not. I would, others like you wouldn't I suppose. But I'd rather live next to one than not have any retail within waking distance. Also they already live blocks from a university, three housing projects, antique dealers, contractors, walmart, & half dozen fast food places. Not are they'd care it's not New Tampa. And we want balance & choice in the market place.

Let's see what happens in this area, I bet the next large project will be mixed since there will be enough young professionals there to start a neighborhood. Look at Channelside, those retails that exist don't seem to be racking it in even with all of those residents nearby.

I don't even know where to begin. What makes a dense pedestrian street? Seriously my response to this contained in the post I made earlier that you didn't actually respond to.
A dense pedestrian street, 7th ave in Ybor, Beach Drive downtown St Pete, Howard Ave south of Cleveland maybe...
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:52 PM   #74
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Dude research, research. The SOHO project while built of wood (which I care far less about than others) has a parking garage, not surface lot.
I was referring mainly to the type of construction as Crack boxes or whatever even though they are concrete below with wood above.

SOHO doesn't have as much choice here either in regards to needing a garage.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 08:12 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by kmthurman View Post
Actually no one said requirement. There are three complaints about the property made: flexibility of use, diversity of use, k use of public land for surface parking.

The comment about requirement was referring to opinions, not an actual requirement.


Mannhattan -- if I heard everyone invoke that city as the only place with mixed use urban development. Tampa is not Manhattan, Tampa is Tampa. However, because of that this property is actually very unique and instead of pretending that a mixed use building won't work "certainly not in the area" I actually look at where it sits not & don't pretend it's river view.

Manhattan was chosen to make the point, there are hundreds of examples that would suffice. I personally like mixed use depending on the location, downtown is most suitable IMO.

It sits next to the third busiest stretch of freeway in The 3rd largest state. It sits blocks from the largest square mile of employment in central florida, it sits less than 4 miles from the from the regions largest airport, it sits on two bus lines, and most importantly next to a private university full of students that move off campus because they don have enough room to house them.

As close as you would like to think this is, once your on foot, it seems far away. Your kidding yourself if you think any of those places are within a normal walk. I drive by there often, both properties are customers and I have to tell you, I don't see many pedestrians nor do I expect to. Cars role out of Vintage Lofts and they are gone.

Just like I have a right to wish that a restaurant improve their food, a director make a better movie, for Ford a better car, i can say I think these developers left money on the table and I wish they made a better product. That banks aren't optimistic enough about the area. That people make decisions based on fundamentally flawed data. And finally I can sit on this forum and wish people like you didn't make blanket statements and feel self satisfied that your argument is correct without any facts. So please leave your posts of name calling, politics, and very little actual argument for why is is the best possible use of this site. Just admit you don't like the people here & leave. Or continue to be the sad old man trolling people.
Wow, I don't even know the people you think I don't like. I feel a little attacked for sharing a few opinions to say the least but have not expressed dislike for anyone. I've never said I was right and always maintained those were my opinions or ideas.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 08:14 PM   #76
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How is it fare to offer a tax credit for mixed retail? I am not arguing, just trying to wrap my head around how its fare is all. These areas usually don't need tax credits, they are going to build mixed retail if it works. Giving a tax credit could lead to a bunch of unwanted empty retails in places that technically have the density but not the right location.
It's fair for two reasons: 1) As I noted before there will be more walking so less need for parking 2) also I argued parking credits. Personally I think parking requirements is a tax on development and a subsidy to other industries. But obviously a development that doesn't force someone to use a car, doesn't need to require as much parking.

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Anise is the best, hard to believe the exist side by side. Look forward to going back there soon.
It is, and it doesn't anymore. Five guys closed yesterday.

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Tampa was built around the car, we might have small pockets of pedestriable ( coined word ) areas but it will be a long time before we convert to public transit here. I love NYC and the city streets and hope Tampa's can eventually turn the corner from empty streets to a bustling downtown.
Yes it was, so was NYC & DC (or Denver or Salt Lake City) for parts of its life. But that isn't my point. I am saying not every human requires a car, but our regulations force developers to provide space for them. My family does just fine with 1 car, when regulations require them to build more than that.

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I don't disagree with that at all and offer this, we need more residents to make everything else possible. If not this project or the next, there is 100's of acres around ripe for development and perhaps that will have the mixed use. It seems more important IMO to get more residents, especially apartments in downtown. My only real concerns about mixed retail is the lack of tenants. Nothing worse than a bunch of empty storefronts to blight a street.
Fair enough, but none of us are arguing anything other than a couple retail spaces for nearly a thousand residents especially the ones that live there.

Quote:
Let's see what happens in this area, I bet the next large project will be mixed since there will be enough young professionals there to start a neighborhood. Look at Channelside, those retails that exist don't seem to be racking it in even with all of those residents nearby.
Channelside has too much retail for its size thanks to the mall, but mostly they are some hideously badly designed retail spaces. They will fill, but it's hard to figure out what to do with a 500 x 15 space like the place has four of. Or what to do wig retail that doesn't touch the ground like the towers.

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A dense pedestrian street, 7th ave in Ybor, Beach Drive downtown St Pete, Howard Ave south of Cleveland maybe...
Your just described streets with lots of retail but only one has many residents around. I would argue that retail isn't the issue, it's the mixing of it all so trips aren't auto dependent and street life is active making the neighborhood safer and more economically viable is what we're looking for. As those streets in west tampa can be great, it's why we wish the development was better.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 07:10 AM   #77
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Let's just say that the city needs to set in building requirements for certain areas and corridors in Tampa. One specifically requiring parking garages. If it cost more, so be it. No relaxing the requirement. Set it in stone. Just picture this being in downtown, somewhere on this massive parking spaces north of the Crosstown. Would our response be simply, "it's cheaper for the developer"? If one developer can't oblige with building requirements, another one can. Got to do our pickings, even if it means waiting a couple months or a year for a reliable developer that understands they are building a project in an urban setting and not our in Brandon or Carrollwood.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 07:14 PM   #78
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Let's just say that the city needs to set in building requirements for certain areas and corridors in Tampa. One specifically requiring parking garages. If it cost more, so be it. No relaxing the requirement. Set it in stone. Just picture this being in downtown, somewhere on this massive parking spaces north of the Crosstown. Would our response be simply, "it's cheaper for the developer"? If one developer can't oblige with building requirements, another one can. Got to do our pickings, even if it means waiting a couple months or a year for a reliable developer that understands they are building a project in an urban setting and not our in Brandon or Carrollwood.
That is fine but let's stop the farce of also wanting "affordable housing." IMO, especially for DT, there needs to be relaxed parking standards especially for some adaptive reuse projects.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #79
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Wow, interesting that 5 guys closed.

I will say there has been a revolving door in the retail at Skypoint and some surrounding areas of downtown storefronts. The Anise location has been a few places over the years, let's hope it survives. What would you like to see replace 5 guys as a resident there?

It's not that I don't like mixed use but rather hate seeing the empty spaces. How great would it be if they were all full. Some of my posts about not having mixed in some retail is based on that and not that I do not favor them.

NYC doesn't seem to be built on the automobile, at least not Manhattan. Those roads are far under sized and there has been streetcars and subways in the later part there much of the last 100 plus years.

Tampa had the streetcar, it would be interesting to see how it faded out of use, perhaps the decline of the urban core and interests in the suburban neighborhoods was the cause? Is there a map or detail on the streetcar system that was once here in Tampa?
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Old January 28th, 2014, 09:40 PM   #80
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It's not that I don't like mixed use but rather hate seeing the empty spaces. How great would it be if they were all full. Some of my posts about not having mixed in some retail is based on that and not that I do not favor them.

NYC doesn't seem to be built on the automobile, at least not Manhattan. Those roads are far under sized and there has been streetcars and subways in the later part there much of the last 100 plus years.

Tampa had the streetcar, it would be interesting to see how it faded out of use, perhaps the decline of the urban core and interests in the suburban neighborhoods was the cause? Is there a map or detail on the streetcar system that was once here in Tampa?
I hate seeing empty spaces as well. It sickens me.

Not to get too far off-track, but yes, a lot of Manhattan's grid was built up before the 1900s, just like much DT Tampa's grid and some suburban areas. Many streets in both cities have been modified to today's standards, but some are far too narrow to handle the thousands to vehicles that pass through each day.

As for the point about the streetcars, that has been mentioned somewhere in the Public Transit thread.
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