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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:06 AM   #81
koopalicious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian72 View Post
The point is be realistic with our expectations on what is reasonable for this area. Looking at every project that way is always going to be underwhelming. Tampa is really a small city but that is starting to change.
Tampa is the principal city of the 18th-largest MSA in the nation. I'm not asking it, or the region, to be New York, Tokyo, or London; I'm asking it to provide the kinds of things that should be expected from an area of such stature. And if you don't know what those things are, then just consider the three metros ahead of the Bay area in population: Seattle, Minneapolis, and San Diego.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:32 AM   #82
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Continuing my point from earlier... Look at it this way. Vinik's project requires $30-40 million or so in public investment in upgraded infrastructure, to net over $1 billion in private investment.

The West Tampa plan looks at this point like it will cost more like triple that in public infrastructure investment, to lure much less private investment. So who is this a good deal for exactly? I'm not sure it's taxpayers elsewhere in the city, who will be on the hook for the bill if things don't pan out.

I looked into this more while watching the Bucs find a new way to lose on DVR (yay! #1 pick). The city had it in its head that it could push for redevelopment in this area and develop it pretty densely. Then they paid a consultant to look into it, and for reasons I don't understand yet, they came back with this low density 'new urban' scheme to merely double the housing and make its arrangement more compact, to open up space for public amenities and room to build retail and office space (but not the "Westshore Part 2", like was initially envisioned with up to 6 million sqft of worth developable commercial space newly zoned).

Remember, a key stated goal of the city here is to take an inner city area which is basically non-rev (presently less than $200k a year in property tax revenues are generated in the entire neighborhood) and make it have a net positive cashflow over time. But with the added cost of relocating city facilities (like the Water Dept, and proposed school relocations) considered, the whole deal starts looking kinda iffy to me. This low density stuff isn't going to generate a lot of property tax revenues either, but the infrastructure being built will still need upgraded/rebuilt a few decades from now at considerable cost. If today's infrastructure is being built with projected tax revenues for the next 30 years, then who pays to work on the neighborhood's infrastructure down the road? At that point, is the city going to effectively take out 30 years worth of loans again, and hope it works out?)

I have not been able to locate any information which indicates from a fiscal perspective that redeveloping this land at a low density is better than leaving it be, until conditions warrant higher intensity redevelopment.
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Last edited by Jasonhouse; December 29th, 2014 at 07:04 AM. Reason: fixed a jumbled sentence
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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:40 PM   #83
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I don't expect 100% turnaround in every redevelopment. Looking at this area which is very blighted to say the least, there will need to be some transitional development to get more interest IMO.

Considering the relocation of public facilities will also make future development a little easier.

Personally, I really enjoy lower density areas in close proximity to downtown urban areas, not that they should entirely surround the central city but at least a few. Old NE in St Petersburg is a great example of this, there are large old single family homes (fairly close together) that adds good character and livability to the area. These are where the families will live, especially with more than one child. You won't see that many families wanting to live in high density, multi-level buildings without a decent amount of greenspace in the immediate neighborhood. Family type dwellings are what will help keep downtown where it needs to be for sure. Bayshore is sort of the same for Tampa but limited and a little further away and also too expensive to really facilitate the need for true families.

I don't see the river as a place to build up high density housing again...but it does need to offer something for residents and people outside of the area.

I am sure there could be much more added to the plan but getting this area to a functional asset is the first step of many.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 02:49 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koopalicious View Post
Tampa is the principal city of the 18th-largest MSA in the nation. I'm not asking it, or the region, to be New York, Tokyo, or London; I'm asking it to provide the kinds of things that should be expected from an area of such stature. And if you don't know what those things are, then just consider the three metros ahead of the Bay area in population: Seattle, Minneapolis, and San Diego.
I don't disagree but to assume this area can be transformed from what it is today to the perfect development one could imagine is not realistic. I get that it makes more sense to try and do more now, but this isn't an area that anyone is tripping over to develop or live in.

Moving the public facilities, razing the buildings and starting over will provide a working, livable area that can begin to grow and attract further redevelopment. Even if not this area, more neighborhoods surrounding that also are way past due.

The opportunity the Vinik has is rare and fully funded, this development here is more of the norm and considering the current condition, very welcomed to say the least.

I don't see anyone aside from Vinik jumping into his part of downtown either, even with their plan in place, it will be 5 to 10 years out to fully see the project. Imagine if he were not in his development, it might be 5 or 10 before we see another vision plan by some other investors and it might not be as good.

I will except the west river plan as a starting point and it needs to happen asap. Tampa needs go ride this wave and keep the momentum. In 5 years when things begin to slow down, Tampa may have enough of its own momentum to push through and keep growing. waiting for the 'right' development could leave this area for a decade. The river is a great asset and this needs to start yesterday.

Last edited by Brian72; December 29th, 2014 at 03:07 PM.
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Old December 29th, 2014, 11:43 PM   #85
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In 5 years when things begin to slow down, Tampa may have enough of its own momentum to push through and keep growing.
Zero chance Tampa will "push on through" the next economic downturn. Tampa's economy is not even remotely as robust as those in cities like Seattle, DC, Denver, which weathered the recent downturn as if it was a typical mild recession, while sprawling places like Tampa, Phoenix and Las Vegas, which are heavily dependent on their own growth and on low paying service sector jobs, were utterly devastated.

The best that will happen to Tampa is if by some miracle no developers get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, urban housing supply will remain tight, and Tampa's urban core and its best in-city neighborhoods (like Hyde Park and Palma Ceia) will largely push on through with regards to property values. But when the next down cycle inevitably occurs, the overall Tampa Bay market will seize up as much or worse than it will in any of the other ill conceived sunbelt cities.


But you're right that Tampa needs to strike while it can. But it's even more important they get it right, and the plan out there right now doesn't exactly give that impression. It smells strongly like someone has already decided to settle for what they can get right now, not necessarily what's best in the long run.

"Build whatever you can while you can" is how we got Pierhouse.

Last edited by Jasonhouse; December 29th, 2014 at 11:51 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 04:11 AM   #86
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Pier house isn't as bad as you want it to be. Vinik's plan is way more than given credit for. Tampa is only going to increase in popularity and population in the next decade. Revitalization of more surrounding urban areas is going to just make it that much better.

Public transit is mostly for those who need it, whether it's expanded or not won't effect Tampa's growth significantly.

This is a laid back, tourist type recreational atmosphere. Tampa isn't based on what cities to the north are.

I look forward to you seeing your wrong on T 's future. ...
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Old December 30th, 2014, 06:29 AM   #87
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Wait... Vinik's plan is downright awesome imo. Especially with local govt piling on with the USF stuff and such. I just don't think Vinik's portion is of such scale that it will 'remake' downtown, so I don't act like he's the 2nd Coming.

Downtown is being remade, because there is a lot of market pressure for it to be remade. If that pressure didn't exist, Vinik wouldn't be doing squat. And since it does exist, things will get done whether it's Vinik or others.


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Quote:
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Pier house isn't as bad as you want it to be. Vinik's plan is way more than given credit for. Tampa is only going to increase in popularity and population in the next decade. Revitalization of more surrounding urban areas is going to just make it that much better.
And who the hell said Tampa wouldn't grow or become more interesting in the coming decade? Who said the urban core won't revitalize? What's with the endless straw mans, where you make up some shit that nobody said, and then declare that you oppose that non-existent viewpoint, and are therefore "correct"?
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Old December 30th, 2014, 09:09 AM   #88
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Read your posts....your talking out both sides of your ass even now. Second coming? Remake downtown? No one is making those statements. It's just a really big deal. You say the negatives, not me. Own your disdain for this area void of the intellectual culture you repeatedly mention. This is you, "it's great! Just not THAT great..."
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Old December 30th, 2014, 01:43 PM   #89
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Wouldn't it be easier for you two to text each other.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 03:19 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian72 View Post
Tampa is only going to increase in popularity and population in the next decade. Revitalization of more surrounding urban areas is going to just make it that much better.

Public transit is mostly for those who need it, whether it's expanded or not won't effect Tampa's growth significantly.

This is a laid back, tourist type recreational atmosphere. Tampa isn't based on what cities to the north are.
While I agree with you that Viniks plan is downright a positive for the region as a whole, it might not catapult the city to new heights beyond others, but it certainly makes a statement about the confidence in the City and hopefully other investors take notice alot more now than before. Also we do not yet know the extent of his plans, so who knows if the masterplan in the end could incorporate things that haven't been mentioned this early on yet

You are right that it's typically a tourist region, and the growth for Tampa will likely increase continually over the decade no matter the current state of public transportation, however, the absolute mediocre public transportation this city and region provides compared to any major/minor city up north is night and day. I just feel like as much as we want to achieve that city life atmosphere, having to drive to every single place won't help at all with the anticipation that all these plans put into motion are are to attract millenials here. You absolutely need a car in Tampa to get anywhere, and that is a big factor to many that move down and find out after the fact. To add insult to injury the traffic congestions are horrible, and this is without any of the major developments being completed, as well as there is no significant plan to solve it, other than political bickering. I was raised up North (New Haven, CT to be exact) and while that city is about a population of 150k ppl or so, I can stop at nearly every other corner, hop on a city bus for $1.25 and get anywhere I need to go quickly. Here, I might as well just pay for a taxi or friend to bring me. Where I currently work (we have a college hiring program past 3 years hiring college (business/finance grads throughout U.S.), and lack of public transportation was a big let down for many of those I've spoken to as far as experiences go. Let's just say I'm sure the local dealerships have no complaints lol
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Old December 30th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #91
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Nice reply and I certainly understand. It's hard to build around public transportation when it doesn't exist so new developments are always a concern in this forum for being built around the auto...I get it but we are still no where near a viable transportation system for everyone. I am a huge supporter of trains and have ideas how it could be applied here that is different than most but I still see the need for it. Taxes are high up north and cities are usually not set up around a large bay as we are. If it was just Tampa or St Petersburg, I could see a much easier focus on public transportation but with so many crossing the bay to commute, shop or tourists sight seeing it requires that 7 mile gap not to mention the distance between downtowns and the beaches which alone makes it difficult. Now add in getting people from their front doors in this suburban sprawl to another suburban sprawl destination, very complex situation. This is a transportation planners nightmare. ...anyways I don't disagree and just like to keep things real, anyone can dream about what could be but in the end development doesn't happen that way..
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Old December 30th, 2014, 06:59 PM   #92
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Wouldn't it be easier for you two to text each other.
I agree StPeteNative.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #93
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Thought this forum was for discussions, debates and opinion, sorry I misunderstood the concept....Should I stick my nose up Jason's but too?
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Old December 30th, 2014, 10:29 PM   #94
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Okay, here's an opinion - the constant Jason vs Brian pissing contest is getting tired. You guys may bicker ad nauseum, but you're two sides of the same coin.

As for where you stick your nose, that's nobody's business but your own.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #95
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It is. But this is routinely derailing every thread now. And your and Jason's arguments are the same thing every time.
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Old December 30th, 2014, 11:38 PM   #96
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It'd be great if we could somehow put I-275 under the ground or at least make it invisible.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 12:00 AM   #97
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It'd be great if we could somehow put I-275 under the ground or at least make it invisible.
That would be cool except you wouldn't be able to see the skyline going down 275 if it were underground, so I vote invisible
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Old December 31st, 2014, 12:20 AM   #98
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But honestly I don't see a problem with the Brian vs Jason thing. I enjoy reading both opinions and I appreciate both sides of the argument. It's intriguing to see how many different ways they explain their main argument, which is Jason wanting to hold our city, he cares about, to a high standard and Brian wanting us to be realistic and happy/appreciative for the developments coming to our city that he also cares about. If you think about, if we didn't have the Jason vs Brian debates we would probably miss it when there's nothing else really being talked about, I know I would. Plus, I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty positive these guys have respect for each other, I've seen it given, both ways, many times here on the forum. That being said, I don't see a problem with a good, passionate debate..I know it sometimes seems to get a Lil heated but then we get awesome comments like


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...Should I stick my nose up Jason's but too?
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Old December 31st, 2014, 02:15 AM   #99
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It'd be great if we could somehow put I-275 under the ground or at least make it invisible.
I have often thought the same thing. I wish there was a way we could mimic the park that Dallas built over their downtown intersrate.

As for Brian v. Jason, I don't mind the arguing to an extent. I just wish we could keep it limited to specific developments. But it always seems to devolve into much broader philosophical arguments that always seem to end in the same stalemate. Just my two cents.
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Old December 31st, 2014, 11:24 AM   #100
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It'd be great if we could somehow put I-275 under the ground or at least make it invisible.
I'd rather see the Crosstown underground to make room for a true reconnection of the urban grid downtown.
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