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Old December 17th, 2014, 07:43 PM   #41
HARTride 2012
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Right Kevin. Because as Szemeredy has mentioned numerous times, as I, the heritage stock isn't cutting it. We have to have modern LRVs.

Plus, the CSX liability issue must be resolved.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmthurman View Post
They are not extending anything. They want it extended. First you have to modernize the cars.

Plus extending to Polk street will accomplish about as much as extending to whiting did. It need to at least extend to the far end of downtown.
I disagree with this, the extension to Whiting up until this development provided a destination to no where, through no where.

Once this is all built out, the streetcar will be connecting 4 great areas, Ybor, Channelside residential, this new waterside district and downtown (effectively).

This loop would also be close enough to Straz, Curtis Hixon and the rest of the core downtown to be useful IMO.

I won't say that modernization isn't a good idea or necessary but certainly with more frequent head-ways and riders, it would be usable in the current state. The problem with the streetcar isn't that its not modern, its primary dis-function the fact it runs through dead zones...

I had no problems riding the streetcar except the slow connections and lack of destination. Heck, why leave Ybor and unless you live in Channelside, why would anyone use it?
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:12 PM   #43
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Brian, I really don't think you fully understand the costs of maintaining the heritage cars. Szemeredy has already discussed that matter on the transit thread.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #44
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I fully do but where is the money to modernize? Besides my point is that the streetcar would be effective as is if it were providing a useful service. I agree that modernization would be great, so...
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:22 PM   #45
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I fully do but where is the money to modernize? Besides my point is that the streetcar would be effective as is if it were providing a useful service. I agree that modernization would be great, so...
Modernization & actually running it would do more than spending $30 mil to get to polk
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:26 PM   #46
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I fully do but where is the money to modernize? Besides my point is that the streetcar would be effective as is if it were providing a useful service. I agree that modernization would be great, so...
Modernization can be as simple as getting new LRVs, changing the overhead and upgrading the substations to provide the extra power needed to run them. Depending on the length, platforms may need to be extended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLQVPaQufkA

New LRVs can also take that curve outside the Aquarium just fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPSsCiHTXDk
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #47
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Well Kevin, we can disagree on that.

I truly believe that many who use it now and will in the future will prefer the heritage cars and that the expansion into downtown is much more valuable in the forefront than modernization of a useless line. Downtown is a primary destination and without it, why even bother modernizing?

Again, I have not said to forget about modernization all together and even plan the next extension with that in mind.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:50 PM   #48
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Well Kevin, we can disagree on that.

I truly believe that many who use it now and will in the future will prefer the heritage cars and that the expansion into downtown is much more valuable in the forefront than modernization of a useless line. Downtown is a primary destination and without it, why even bother modernizing?

Again, I have not said to forget about modernization all together and even plan the next extension with that in mind.
As someone who lives in channelside and uses the streetcar once in a blue moon i can say that i could care less if its modern or not. I care that it can take me somewhere that i would want to go to, and at a reasonable price.

As of right now the only times i ever use the street car is when we go drinking in ybor.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:47 PM   #49
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30 stories max, maybe at the former Southgate Tower site...
It was a trick question. I got wind of the project's particulars the other day, and knew it didn't have any true highrises, and was a scattering of midrises with solid street interaction.

Nice project, but I told y'all it was going to seem a bit underwhelming after all of the hype of late.

And no, this project won't redefine Tampa, or whatever the pols have been asserting. It will help southern downtown not be such an unwalkable wasteland of surface parking, but this doesn't redefine Tampa as some sort of urban oasis or any of that. It's a solid project that Vinik deserves recognition for even trying. If he can actually pull it off, he'll become a local legend (and almost turn himself into a billionaire in the process).


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Also, I noticed the Vinik hotel has changed some in design. Seems smaller?
Looks like it got chopped in half?

Maybe they ran the numbers some more and felt that they didn't need so many hotel rooms just yet. The one plus would be that it looks like the smaller tower is pushed over even closer to the arena... Looks like if they engineered the foundation/pedestal for it, a 2nd tower could be put up later, closer to Greco Plaza.



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$910,000,000 annual economic output, 6700 jobs, $78,000 average wage

$35,000,000 in new annual tax revenue
There's zero assurance at this point that any of that is accurate.

Think of it more as goal.



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However, with that said, it is 1000x better than what would have been had Vinik not gotten involved and created this thing and put it together rapidly so far.
That's the key to me too... At least this dude cares enough to try.

Last edited by Jasonhouse; December 17th, 2014 at 10:01 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:09 PM   #50
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Brorein as we know it will be changed?
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
It was a trick question. I got wind of the project's particulars the other day, and knew it didn't have any true highrises, and was a scattering of midrises with solid street interaction.

Nice project, but I told y'all it was going to seem a bit underwhelming after all of the hype of late.

That's the key to me too... At least this dude cares enough to try.
It's def going to greatly improve the whole channelside/ downtown area no doubt about it.. at the least hoping that Vinik being so open with his plans (which to add - up until this point have remained privately financed so the need for so much disclosure isn't even required - yet he has been open about it).. but being so open to city and resident feeback, can spark additional interest in other portions of downtown and spur investor confidence around. Much moreso than anything we would have experienced without Vinik taking control. On the plus side of such a vague master plan, is the fact that things can get tweaked as time progresses, and nothing for the most part is set in stone it appears...so there's always room for other surprises if other land parcels are purchased or other deals are reached to this master plan, which isn't always the case..
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:20 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonhouse View Post
It was a trick question. I got wind of the project's particulars the other day, and knew it didn't have any true highrises, and was a scattering of midrises with solid street interaction.

Nice project, but I told y'all it was going to seem a bit underwhelming after all of the hype of late.

And no, this project won't redefine Tampa, or whatever the pols have been asserting. It will help southern downtown not be such an unwalkable wasteland of surface parking, but this doesn't redefine Tampa as some sort of urban oasis or any of that. It's a solid project that Vinik deserves recognition for even trying. If he can actually pull it off, he'll become a local legend (and almost turn himself into a billionaire in the process).
I am much more optimistic on the effects to Tampa. Although this won't be the area of tall buildings, it will be more of the 'Times Square' of downtown Tampa. This will be an area full of activity both day and night not just filling the gap to the CBD but unifying and promoting a much more dynamic element that doesn't really exist now.

Having this here will further promote development all around downtown.

Tampa Heights, Encore, Channelside, HI, Franklin Street, Ybor are all great but this will bring the big money and investors to our area. I am not going to judge this by its height or density but rather look at what it actually brings to the table.

You are generally negative, the glass is empty, about many developments and projects. Thats just not how I see it and doubt you would ever be truly happy anywhere you live, really.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:22 PM   #53
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I'm not underwhelmed in the least bit, this entire project from what I've seen and heard looks amazing, if everything goes through he's basically building a whole new district from scratch making a continuous neighborhood from Channelside all the way the the convention center.

Side note I loved buckhorns opening speech, I loved his energy, loved that he acknowledged all the holidays then greeted the crowd in Arabic and I loved that he referred to the people of Tampa as "Tampanians" not "Tampans" (hate that term)
I don't know what Buckhorns future plans are but if he runs for governor he's got my vote. I'm proud he's the mayor of Tampa, maybe I didn't get to see or didn't pay attention to everything Iorio did, maybe it's because Buckhorn is mayor when the economy is starting to turn around again but he seems to be getting things done.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:22 PM   #54
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Overall so far I'm just "OK" with what's presented. Not underwhelmed or overwhelmed but just ok'ish with it. Most of us already knew the buildings would not be high rise because of the location and knowledge of the FAA recommendations and restrictions. Maybe in 2015 there may be a proposal for a 40+ near the river.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
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As someone who lives in channelside and uses the streetcar once in a blue moon i can say that i could care less if its modern or not. I care that it can take me somewhere that i would want to go to, and at a reasonable price.

As of right now the only times i ever use the street car is when we go drinking in ybor.
Exactly my point, I have tried to use the streetcar myself and its just not practical. Even if I were a resident in Channelside, I see your point and can relate.

Modernizing now would just be throwing away more money until it actually serves a purpose.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:28 PM   #56
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Rode it once and hated it!
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:36 PM   #57
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I am very positive about this development. It will get Tampa's word out more than ever and probably will raise the attention and investments of other investors for Tampa.

With Encore on the northeast side, Tampa Heights on the nortwest side, West River developments, the new high rises on Harbour Island, more projects in the Channel disdrict and now the Vinik Projects, the gaps are filling in and will make Tampa a much more wholesome City.

Add the new international flight connections and the trade missions to South America and Europe to improve the economy.

Tampa is making big steps toward a higher level.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:39 PM   #58
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This is the best photo I could get of the green loop, which is the desired extension.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #59
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"But I believe we will be moving dirt next summer and cranes will in the air a year from now." - direct quote from Vinick, per Rich Mullins of TBO.com

So, cranes for the proposed hotel, sure. Not a big stretch. But what are the odds of starting construction on either the USF Med School or the proposed corporate HQ tower in 2015? It was my understanding that several factors and steps have to fall in place before either project goes vertical, both of which will likely take more than 12 months.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:12 PM   #60
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Not sure where the assumption that we were all supposed to be underwhelmed is coming from. We all knew the FAA wasn't going to allow buildings taller then 25-30 stories anyway, and a billion dollars only gets you so much when you're developing this much land. It's never been a dick measuring contest when it comes to height with Vinik anyway. He wants to make a neighborhood, not just grab headlines for the tallest skyscraper. Think Portland not Downtown Miami.

The fact that we're getting development say in the wedge between the Forum and Old Water is just a testament of how unique of an opportunity this is. Most cities couldn't really consider developing such a sliver of land in a location like that.

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Brorein as we know it will be changed?
It will cease to exist.

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This is the best photo I could get of the green loop, which is the desired extension.
Obviously won't be made by Vinik, not that it should be anyway, but he's clearly using his project/presentation as a bully pulpit for other things he wants. Can't say I blame him.
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