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Old October 7th, 2016, 08:30 PM   #101
Jasonhouse
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I'm not even saying the project should be stopped. I'm saying the city should have a coherent urban development policy, so that crap developments like this are less likely to happen. Probably by establishing by-right rules for mixed-use developments, while these shitboxes have to get a PD.

And with that I'm done, because most don't even know or care what's being discussed anyways.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 04:38 PM   #102
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Jason, I completely agree with your point that we need better elected politicians and planners. The problem is we are in the middle of an urban transition; a small town suburban community to a regional urban center. I agree we have too many leaders, still in a small-town mindset. That is why we need as many people moving in and around downtown as possible. As the urban population grows, we'll start to finally get the urban mindset you and I are demanding.

As of now, what is the number of people living in downtown? a few thousand? We need to get that number in the tens of thousands.....and fast.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 02:08 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaFuture View Post
Good question and the answer is probably no, you shouldn't care, because they're all acting in self-interest. But the flip side is, people need to and have a right to express their opinions so you end up doing a case by case basis on "are they opposing this for a good reason or a bad faith reason?" Here, I can't think of any adverse effect this project will have on Skypoint (ex. no views blocked) other then the design elements we're discussing here. It seems to me while that's still self-interest on exhibit, it's a "valid" self-interest because it's for the betterment of the neighborhood as a whole as oppose to something that only affects Skypoint.

But Jason was merely responding to the notion that "no one opposes this project" when in fact several groups of people do. He wasn't saying the project should've been stopped simply because the Skypoint HoA said so.
Aren't those who assert ideas that development in a relatively suburban market without any real public transportation other than the auto be built as walk-able even when its not accessible in reality by any means other than the car for the most part?

I mean seriously, I see almost every project here get some criticism that is so far to the extreme of 'ideal' that rarely are those here excited about development in areas that have 20 decades of blight.

Certainly there should be some incentive for developers to build in the direction best suited for any area but the market rules and having said that, almost all the so called 'shitboxes' have filled up prior to completion and sold at least once for big profit....

And regarding the neighbors having input, sure, they want someone else to do something they don't have to deal with in their building or whatever....make someone else put in retail for them while they bought in a completely residential building...but most don't really have this view anyways, I think all 7 of them are in this forum

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Old October 11th, 2016, 06:05 PM   #104
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If we don't start requiring new developments to have retail and orient toward walkabilty Tampa is going to turn into Dallas and if you've ever been to this gigantic suburban mess you'd know we need to do something now.

That's not to say I don't understand your reasoning for not needing retail at this particular location but again I say it at some point you have to start demanding it or it will never happen.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 07:42 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian72 View Post
Aren't those who assert ideas that development in a relatively suburban market without any real public transportation other than the auto be built as walk-able even when its not accessible in reality by any means other than the car for the most part?

I mean seriously, I see almost every project here get some criticism that is so for the extreme of 'ideal' that rarely are those here excited about development in areas that have 20 decades of blight.

Certainly there should be some incentive for developers to build in the direction best suite for any area but the market rules and having said that, almost all the so called 'shitboxes' have filled up prior to completion and sold at least once for big profit....

And regarding the neighbors having input, sure, they want someone else to do something they don't have to deal with in their building or whatever....make someone else put in retail for them while they bought in a completely residential building...but most don't really have this view anyways, I think all 7 of them are in this forum
It is almost as if the Urbanist who hate Suburbia because it is subsidized want the developers to subsidize retail in their developments. OMG!
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Old October 11th, 2016, 07:43 PM   #106
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If we don't start requiring new developments to have retail and orient toward walkabilty Tampa is going to turn into Dallas and if you've ever been to this gigantic suburban mess you'd know we need to do something now.

That's not to say I don't understand your reasoning for not needing retail at this particular location but again I say it at some point you have to start demanding it or it will never happen.
So what you are saying is that the city should just get into the development game because they obviously know what is best for the project.

I love how you guys love to be little dictators.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 07:50 PM   #107
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So what you are saying is that the city should just get into the development game because they obviously know what is best for the project.

I love how you guys love to be little dictators.
I'm not sure what you mean by "get into the development game" because surely you think the city already is, are they not?

But otherwise:

Yep.

You think you have rights you don't have.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 08:11 PM   #108
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So what you are saying is that the city should just get into the development game because they obviously know what is best for the project.

I love how you guys love to be little dictators.
I'm saying the city should do what cities are supposed to do which is set and enforce codes.

We don't let builders build or do whateverthe**** because it would turn into a sh*t show real quick. Like high rises next to single family homes in Miami or the lunacy that is Houston's lack of zoning.

If you want to curb sprawl AT SOME POINT you have to start demanding more dense, more pedestrian oriented, multi-use buildings.

And for future discussions and debates anytime you brain tells you to type some dumb sh*t like your "little dictators" comment just close your laptop and toss it in the trash.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 12:16 AM   #109
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It is almost as if the Urbanist who hate Suburbia because it is subsidized want the developers to subsidize retail in their developments. OMG!
What do urban residents have to do to before people like you will start respecting their values and treat their concerns with equal regard? What do they have to do to have their money spent on their own priorities, not yours?

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Old October 12th, 2016, 03:14 PM   #110
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over 90% of the Tampa Bay area is less than walkable, having said that, expecting developers to put in retail in a hard sell situation without any real transportation options in the area of development is not reasonable.

This areas retail is mostly contained in high traffic retail corridors and shopping centers. These are all accessible by vehicular access.

The increased residential will help support the many nearby downtown buildings, especially on the north side near Franklin that remain desolate and void of any meaningful commercial.

I see the urban migration of residential as a win/win even without mixed uses considering all the nearby possibilities of develop-able spaces yet to be tapped into.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 05:46 PM   #111
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You point to other locations that are not walkable near downtown and use it as an excuse to add another one? Then what happens when the next development comes along and points to this one and says the same thing? You just end up with a series of developments designed for the car.

It always seems to come down to the chicken/egg scenario. I just don't think letting the "invisible hand" determine the outcome works well in the long run. You can't just let people build whatever the f*** they want just because they have the money to do so. I think there should be a more egalitarian approach to the design and development of a city because it impacts everyone who lives in and around and does business in it.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 07:39 PM   #112
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I don't know. This discussion is to black-and-white to me. I've was growing up and living in cities all over Europe and now one can deny that european cities are URBAN and have great walkability and mass transit. Yet, even in the most central areas not every building has retail.

Urbanity, walkability and retail are not always dependent on each other. I'm all in favor of making Tampa a great urban city, but that does not live or die with lack of retail along this project on Bayshore.

However, the City needs to have a land use plan the defines corridors, nodes corners and other areas where retail/mixed use is required. Those parts should be the most dense and the best connnected ones by mass transit, bike lanes and sidewalks as well.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 09:57 PM   #113
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100% agreed that ground floor commercial doesn't work 'everywhere'. Which is nobody ever, ever suggests it should be required 'everywhere'. Exactly what we have discussed at length here over and over and over, to the point where we discussed specific locations in town that would be the preferred corridors and nodes.

A certain minimal amount of ground floor commercial (be it restaurant, retail, office, they pick) should be required, or at least be encouraged with by-right zoning in limited, well defined corridors and nodes. Like any undeveloped parcels that front the $40 million riverwalk. Or undeveloped parcels next to $36 million parks and $100 million performing art centers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gstolze View Post
However, the City needs to have a land use plan the defines corridors, nodes corners and other areas where retail/mixed use is required. Those parts should be the most dense and the best connnected ones by mass transit, bike lanes and sidewalks as well.
In the case of the Bayshore project you mentioned, Tampa does have that and the confluence of Bayshore and Platt is one of those nodes. That's why Platt is designated a transit corridor where the city just spent money building bike lanes, and that's why the One Bayshore master plan was approved as a mixed-use urban village with residential, office and retail.

The problem is, the city puts it in the comp plan and zones for it, they spend taxpayer money building infrastructure for it, and then the developer just applies for a PD and the city council lets the developer do whatever the hell they want anyways.

The Channel Club, the Fitzgerald, Pierhouse, Crescent Bayshore, this project, and several more in neighborhoods like NHP and Westshore... All of them were zoned and approved for walkable urban mixed-use development, and in each instance the city let a developer comeback and build something less urban and less walkable instead. On some projects, dramatically so.

Last edited by Jasonhouse; October 14th, 2016 at 10:23 AM. Reason: I type for shit
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Old October 12th, 2016, 10:58 PM   #114
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You point to other locations that are not walkable near downtown and use it as an excuse to add another one? Then what happens when the next development comes along and points to this one and says the same thing? You just end up with a series of developments designed for the car.

It always seems to come down to the chicken/egg scenario. I just don't think letting the "invisible hand" determine the outcome works well in the long run. You can't just let people build whatever the f*** they want just because they have the money to do so. I think there should be a more egalitarian approach to the design and development of a city because it impacts everyone who lives in and around and does business in it.
There is no alternative option now or even a viable plan that would put meaningful transit options. Any that are there such as taxis, buses and others such as uber in fact use the roads as well so I don't see how trying to make this walkable by sticking worthless small retail spots were people aren't expecting to walk and have no real way to pull up with their car, their only option, is a realistic approach to development.

Of course they can do what they want, they are the investors and those paying to live there aren't complaining either.

The best idea is to relocate to the desired urban or whatever area and not get so upset about whats happening here.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 07:30 AM   #115
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Well, St. Pete seems to be doing it right. Is there a specific reason why? Do they have better planners than Tampa? Better developers?
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Old October 14th, 2016, 02:11 PM   #116
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St Pete's development boom is great and all but very linear...its amazing to see how Central as come to life but it's sort of a park and walk city still. The times we go there we have to decide what general area we are going to park in and only ever get to enjoy a few linear blocks at a stay "if that". Last time we literally went there for the morning and had to park and get out 3 times because the places we wanted to go were too far to walk in a reasonable amount of time.

Not trying to be negative here but its a rather small downtown if you look at the map say from 8th east to Beach drive where there is actually some north and south development, beyond that its mainly along central for visitors to enjoy. If they had a light rail or streetcar that looped down 1st ave North and South from the stadium back to the waterfront where you could just hop on and off, that would make it much more accessible.
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Old October 15th, 2016, 07:55 AM   #117
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Site clearing started today.



Thanks to Skypoint HOA pres (and county commission candidate) Jeff Zampitella for the pic.

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Old October 15th, 2016, 04:34 PM   #118
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Quote:
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St Pete's development boom is great and all but very linear...its amazing to see how Central as come to life but it's sort of a park and walk city still. The times we go there we have to decide what general area we are going to park in and only ever get to enjoy a few linear blocks at a stay "if that". Last time we literally went there for the morning and had to park and get out 3 times because the places we wanted to go were too far to walk in a reasonable amount of time.

Not trying to be negative here but its a rather small downtown if you look at the map say from 8th east to Beach drive where there is actually some north and south development, beyond that its mainly along central for visitors to enjoy. If they had a light rail or streetcar that looped down 1st ave North and South from the stadium back to the waterfront where you could just hop on and off, that would make it much more accessible.
They actually do have a looper that goes around downtown and it's free.
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Old November 23rd, 2016, 04:46 AM   #119
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Went by this today. They're full site work now.
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Old December 10th, 2016, 02:29 AM   #120
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This article though

Quote:
Tampa apartment construction squeezes Straz Center parking
Richard DanielsonRichard Danielson, Times Staff Writer
Friday, December 9, 2016 8:30am

TAMPA — The construction of an apartment complex on the northern edge of downtown is causing major traffic problems for patrons of the David A. Straz Jr. Center for the Performing Arts.

"My sense from them is that it's really becoming a very critical situation," said Harry Cohen, the Tampa City Council's appointee to the Straz Center board.

When the hit musical Into the Woods played the Straz Center last week, theater managers had to hold the curtain for 30 minutes because patrons were having problems finding places to park. And they held the curtain for other shows in the Straz's smaller halls that night, too.

"I am constantly getting calls from people the next day saying, 'I don't think I'm going to come anymore. I can't fight the traffic. I just can't find a place to park,' " Straz Center president Judith Lisi said this week. "When you're trying to make a curtain time and you're held up, you get very frantic."
more here

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transpo...arking/2305655

At least this article came with a photo. Changing status to U/C.

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