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New EMUs for the SWT franchise!

26K views 77 replies 27 participants last post by  stefeni-ts 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Today's Railway Gazette adds a few more details which I've highlighted...

UK: Franchised passenger operator South West Trains has invited expressions of interest in separate negotiated contracts to finance and supply between 135 and 250 electric multiple-unit cars to increase capacity on suburban services into London Waterloo.

The operator is seeking EMUs of three to five 20 m cars, suitable for operating in formations of up to 10 cars.

The Department for Transport is expected to approve procurement of the new trains imminently, with entry into service planned to take place between July 2016 and July 2017.

The estimated value of the rolling stock order is between £135m and £425m plus VAT, including two years of maintenance support.
Not sure I've ever seen 'plus Vat' mentioned in relation to UK rolling stock. I'm sure the DFT has already given the nod - but that higher figure seems way over the top for just 250 vehicles....
 
#4 ·
Agreed, far too low. Recent bulk and repeat orders for 20m long 100mph EMU vehicles seem to come in at about £1.4 million each (Siemens) and £1.5 million each (Bombardier).

It remains to be seen if Hitachi will quote low prices to justify their new 'factory' at Newton Aycliffe.
 
#5 ·
Clues to how SWT were thinking were already showing online on their website, this news release from April 2013 regarding the retractioning of the 455 fleet with AC motors. I've bolded the interesting bits.

"Passengers using South West Trains are to benefit from a newly-launched £40 million upgrade of its Class 455 train fleet, which is already the most reliable in the UK. The upgrade will deliver even greater reliability for services which operate on the Metro area from London Waterloo to Reading, the Hounslow loop and the Shepperton branch.

The 91 Class 455 trains, which are already the most reliable trains in the country, will be fitted with new traction equipment which promises to enhance performance and improve reliability even further. The programme – which will be rolled out over the next three years – involves removing the existing DC traction equipment, including the motors, and replacing it with an even more reliable modern AC traction system.

Regenerative braking is the dominant factor in the business case for new traction as projections show it will return over 20% of traction electricity on inner suburban services and around 10% on main line services. The new traction units will also be lighter, reducing the amount of wear and tear on the rail infrastructure. An additional benefit of the new traction units is the increased mileage that can be carried out between major servicing and maintenance works, which will increase from 10,000 to 15,000 miles. This will therefore mean that the Class 455 trains will spend less time in Wimbledon depot and more time delivering services for passengers. A longer term benefit of this maintenance improvement will mean that space will be freed up at Wimbledon depot, enabling South West Trains to look at future capacity developments.

Over the next 20 months, South West Trains will be introducing 100 more carriages onto its services to provide capacity for an additional 23,000 peak-time passengers every day. Plans for developing longer term capacity enhancements are also underway."
A while ago Roger Ford in Modern Railways stated that the business case for retractioning the SWT 455s couldn't quite be made on savings from regeneration alone. However it was expected that the higher reliability & availability stemming from the modern AC kit would mean one (or possibly two) more units diagrammed in service each day and that the freed up space at Wimbledon depot could then be used for a fleet of new trains - greatly improving the business case for the new trains as there was no need to build a costly new depot for them. A virtuous circle, proven by the tender announced yesterday. I wonder if the newer class 456s coming across to SWT will be also be refitted with AC traction systems? I suspect they will.

Similar business cases may soon be made for other BR EMU fleets such as 317s/319s and 321s. Regenerative braking tends to be more useful with 25kV wires as the electrical sections are far longer than DC sections, meaning a greater chance that any regenerated electricity can be used by another train.
 
#6 ·
Glad SWT are looking for new trains, in addition for the large orders southern have made for themselves and thameslink.

However, I'm wondering why none are ordered, or planned to be ordered, for southeastern. Network Rail have been spending a lot of money and time extending almost all platforms within London on the southeastern network to 12 platforms and upgrading the power supply. But there is already not enough stock to run many peak time trains above 6 cars, and in some cases even 4 car despite services being extremely busy and the need for longer trains being known for years, and accepted by SE and NR. One reason for extensions is that less services to London Bridge under the rebuild require longer trains, but that is not the sole reason NR have given for platform extensions.

The project is almost at an end. Gravesend rebuilding is part of it and due to be finished next year. But no stock to take advantage.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I'm not sure there are any concrete plans to do that at the moment, and from what's been said about the 378 a 5-car Electrostar can't cope with the weight/power requirements of a 6th vehicle anyway.

I don't know if this applies to the 376, which could nevertheless be overcome by splitting them into half-units or reforming as 4-car trains, but it might just be cheaper and easier to cascade them elsewhere.

Chris
 
#9 ·
Stretching the definition of 'new trains' a bit, SWT has released information about the class 458 fleet rebuild and the incorporation of the (far from new) class 456 fleet.

Pages 5 & 6 of this PDF are of interest.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/iyrnewslettersummer26.6.13v3.pdf


The second phase of the capacity improvement programme, which is planned to take place from January 2014 to December 2014, will see the introduction of 48 more carriages. These extra carriages will be used to strengthen mainline and suburban services during the morning peak and will allow two additional morning peak services to be introduced from Raynes Park to boost capacity. Some 10-car evening peak services will also be introduced on the main suburban route.

These extra carriages will be refurbished in a similar style to the existing Class 455 trains, which are the red trains used on many suburban services.
And this link shows an image of the 'new' 458s. A bit pugly!

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/longertrains.aspx?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
 
#10 ·
Excuse my ignorance/misunderstanding, but does this mean that there aren't going to be any 'new' trains? Just rebuilding of existing classes? And what relationship (if any) does this have with the lengthening of the 458's?

If SWT are going to be lazy, it's a pity. Perhaps stupidly, I had got my hopes up and was quite looking forward to the possibility of a completely different new class of EMU's in the SWT region - and the whole process of procurement/competition/tendering etc. etc. would have been interesting if simply to see the best or most innovative designs that the bidders could have come up with.

On an unrelated note, it's likely that SWT would accept an Alstom or Siemens bid for the trains. A Bombardier bid, let alone the old days of 'real' British-built trains, feels almost impossible.
 
#11 ·
OK, to answer your points:

1) SWT had thirty 4-car 458s. The eight 8-car class 460s were displaced from the Gatwick Express duties. So SWT and the owning ROSCO Porterbrook (no doubt with the DFT's blessing) struck a deal for sixty of the 460 vehicles to be rebuilt into suburban 458s. This means SWT get 60 more vehicles and 36 rather than 30 trains, all 5-car. Plus they all get new couplers and corridor connections, all for £42 million. The cost of buying these new would have been about £90 million.
2) SWT are also getting twenty-four of the 1980s vintage 2-car 456s which will enable the 455s to be lengthened to 10-cars. Thus 108 extra vehicles in the near future.

In addition to all this, SWT have just put out a tender for 135-250 NEW vehicles. So yes, you will eventually be seeing new trains of a different type - but such is the timescale between tendering, ordering, building and delivery that these new trains won't be around for nearly three years.

SWT could have just sat back, let the commuters suffer increasing overcrowding and done nothing until the new trains started arriving - instead they have created a 15% increase in seating at a much earlier date for not a lot of money. And by making the financial case to retraction the British built 455s (which have years of life left in them) they have made the purchase of new trains possible. They haven't been lazy at all, In fact they've shown a great deal of ingenuity.
 
#15 ·
To update matters, the first couple of 'new' 5-car 458/5s have been delivered and are busy accumulating mileage on tests. Here is a recent video of 458534 passing Wareham. Quite a nice looking train.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeX7vGAvtG0

Below is the original SWT plan, with details of the three extra services the extra six units will work from next year.

Services from Windsor, Weybridge (via Staines,) and Hounslow (via both Richmond and Brentford) will be lengthened. Two additional Reading-Waterloo trains will run each way, together with an additional morning peak Hounslow-Waterloo service.
The additional trains will use platform 20 at the former Waterloo International Terminal, which will come back into use from 2014.
A limited number of mainline trains between London Waterloo and Portsmouth, Southampton and Alton will also be lengthened by cascading rolling stock. The enhanced services will be delivered through the refurbishment of 60 former Gatwick Express Class 460 Juniper vehicles, combined with refurbished trains from South west Trains’ existing fleet.
The additional carriages will begin arriving from May 2013, with all new services in place by July 2014, benefiting millions of passengers a year.
 
#16 ·
They fit in well with the current stock :) thanks for the link!
 
#17 ·
Following on from the previous thread where I mentioned platform 20...

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio....r-train-to-use-waterloos-platform-20-tomorrow

First SWT passenger train to use Waterloo's platform 20 tomorrow


October 22, 2013

A class 458 from Reading will become the first scheduled passenger train to use London Waterloo's platform 20 tomorrow.

Between now and next May, when the former Eurostar platforms will be used on a daily basis, the platforms will be used during times of disruption and to stable stock overnight.

Although no times have been given for tomorrow's move SWT says it will not be during the peak period.
 
#20 ·
No picture, but more info available here: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7160

23.10.2013
Starting this week, platform 20 can be used when needed to relieve congestion at the station during times of disruption. It will be used for scheduled train services from May 2014.
"This is the first step in our plan to provide extra capacity to and from the UK's busiest station by re-opening the former Waterloo International Terminal and delivering additional carriages on our busiest routes," said Tim Shoveller, managing director of the South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance.
"Over the coming months, we'll be completing our driver training programme and ensuring that all of our trains are ready for the full re-opening of platform 20 in May 2014.
Also quotes just £5million to re-open all five International platforms - that should really annoy our resident Pole-Troll! :lol:
 
#38 ·
The 'two new Waterloo Reading services each way' - is that tph or two per peak?
Don't think this has been explicitly answered yet, but the wording used in SWT's relevant PR announcement strongly suggests two specific services in the morning peak, and two in the evening peak. No more details, but it would be odd if they weren't up direction in the morning and down in the evening.

Taken from the 'editors notes' here:

An internal cascade will provide two additional Reading services in the morning and evening and one further Hounslow peak service into London Waterloo...

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extracapacity.aspx
 
#22 ·
I know reopening these platforms is intended as a cheap win...

...but could a better use of them be found?

They're very, very long. Unnecessarily long, in fact. Would dramatically shortening them and using the alignments to reduce the curvature on Waterloo's throat not make more sense as you could then lengthen more of the existing platforms? You could still have them as platforms - just as shorter 12 car platforms. Given where they are the Reading services are going to be the only viable users...and I suspect said Reading line is never going to see 16-car trains, so 12 should be enough!
 
#24 ·
I know reopening these platforms is intended as a cheap win...

...but could a better use of them be found?

They're very, very long. Unnecessarily long, in fact. Would dramatically shortening them and using the alignments to reduce the curvature on Waterloo's throat not make more sense as you could then lengthen more of the existing platforms? You could still have them as platforms - just as shorter 12 car platforms. Given where they are the Reading services are going to be the only viable users...and I suspect said Reading line is never going to see 16-car trains, so 12 should be enough!
The roof of the International station extends some 370m from the buffers (only the Eurostar power car was in the open), so a drastic shortening of the platforms would mean major surgery. At least as things stand Waterloo gains five platforms easily capable of taking 16x 20m or 15 x 23m trains. Not that the space is needed.

IIRC platforms 1-4 are 8 car (160m) and platforms 5 & 6 are 10 -car (200m). Platforms 7-18 are 240m already. The existing plans are to extend platforms 1-4 to 200m long, which will be the standard suburban train length for the forseeable future. 1-6 will only become an issue if suburban trains extend to 240m length - but anyway, the extra space needed for that isn't where the P20-24 throat is.

In fact the International station roof extends 100m further South than the ends of the 240m platforms. Widening will be needed on the Eastern side, not the Western side.
 
#23 ·
Yes, makes absolute sense. You'd need to do something with the roof (sniff!) first.

I wonder if there's any merit in keeping one very long one, for charters/rail tours, possible sleepers and general flexibility - such as ECS of many units.

But yes overall it'd be good, combined with doing the same at the low end of the numbers and straightening up the whole throat a bit more.
 
#28 ·
Yeah, that makes sense!

Though, looking at it...Waterloo's already almost at a crazy right angle to the lines from the south. I don't think widening the bridge would be enough...and presumably the properties in the way will be demolished? You basically have to remove the kink to get anywhere...
 
#30 ·
Be aware though that the actual details of the OJEU tender for these additional NEW units referred to in this thread does still allow for them to be second hand:

Document Ref: 321675-2013
Published By: Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited

Supply of electric suburban passenger rolling stock.
Supply of a fleet of electric suburban heavy rail passenger railway stock.

The rolling stock may be either new build or an existing fleet.

Where the fleet is new build it must be dual voltage and the chosen supplier will be required to enter into a maintenance support arrangement for the period following the introduction of the whole fleet up to approximately 31.3.2019.

Where the fleet is an existing fleet it must operate on a DC network and be compatible with an existing fleet operated by Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited and modified to meet its requirements. Further information will be in the ITN. It is currently envisaged that rolling stock will be required to be ready for introduction to service between July 2016 and July 2017 at a rate of no more than 2 units per week.
So there's nothing much there to prevent a ROSCO proposing anything from new units to the complete rebuild of SN's 455 fleet...
 
#32 ·
It is utter folly tha while many parts of the British rail network struggle with lack of capacity, one of the few locations where additional capacity is available - Waterloo International - is sitting largely unused. Making best use of it will require a long-term and extremely expensive solution
 
#34 ·
They are bringing the first of them into action next year with plans to bring them ALL in. Also, you can't just run the trains on the platforms being lengthened into international today because the slow tracks they use run into those platforms. Running them into international would require them to cross the Fast and Windsor lines, causing huge conflicts and likely an actual drop in capacity. All 5 will eventually be reused, starting with the first early next year. At the moment Waterloo can "launch" a Windsor Lines, Fast and Slow service simultaneously, and it often does.
 
#33 ·
I would love to remodel Waterloo, essentially removing everything bar the curved brick frontage and replacing it with the ideal track and platform layout under a brand new roof.

Sadly, I imagine the cost of doing this around a busy operational station would be close to that of building a diamond-encrusted escalator to the Moon.
 
#41 ·
AIUI they form the current Waterloo to Weybridge through service, at 2 tph.

Previously (i.e. before the 2004 major alterations) that was only an hourly shuttle between Staines and Weybridge, but it meant an extra train each way between Staines and Virginia Water, so there were more conflicts at the two junctions.
 
#44 ·
Almost 13 months after the announcement of a tender for new units, we now know the Siemens Desiro City is the winner!

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ins-south-west-trains-suburban-emu-order.html

150 vehicles, £210 million - £1.4 milion per carriage. No doubt helped by being a follow-on order to the Thameslink units.

As I predicted on 09/08/13 -
''Recent bulk and repeat orders for 20m long 100mph EMU vehicles seem to come in at about £1.4 million each (Siemens) and £1.5 million each (Bombardier)''.
 
#46 ·
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