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Old June 28th, 2015, 09:41 PM   #11181
Chris99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian
For the benefit of everyone else on this forum, here some of the claims in that which were, shall we say, more misguided--
[*]In 2010-11, the Scottish Government budget was £29,600m. In 2015-16, it is estimated at £30,167m. In 2015-16 prices, £29,600m is £32,200m. Those figures are rounded slightly, but despite the rhetoric of public spending cuts, the Scottish Government budget has remained roundly flat: there's a fairly small difference in it, certainly not in the order of billions. You can see this in Table 1.01 here: http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0046/00462296.pdf
The overall budget may have remained roughly flat in cash terms but when inflation is taken into account the real terms cut, as shown in the table you linked to, amounts to 10% since 2010.

The capital budget has taken a huge hit after being cut by 25% in real terms since 2010 meaning less cash for new schools, hospitals and roads. This has been mitigated to some extent by the NPD programme but of course we will be paying for NPD schemes over 30 years at high rates of interest no doubt.

I'm not sure why you say the cuts don't amount to billions when the data you linked to actually shows the opposite.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 05:29 PM   #11182
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Originally Posted by anonymous_redrum View Post
Not sure why i'm engaging with Mexico86 but I will bite this one time. Even just off the top of my head, when asked to name one SNP policy thatís helped poor, vulnerable and ordinary working people:
First of all, let me say I'm pleasantly surprised to see you trying to make a constructive comment here, while the so-called left wingers Milton and Daeguduke openly refuse (or are unable) to name any redistributive SNP policies.


Quote:
  • Free travel for pensioners.
  • Not left wing. This is either universalism or right wing, depending on whether you believe the policy takes money from the poor of working age to give indiscriminately to a demographic with higher living standards than the young of working age.

    Quote:
  • Free tuition fees.
  • Universalism, probably a good policy though. Not left wing, as it's not redistributive. In fact, it predominantly benefits the middle classes (who are more likely to go to uni) and benefits the rich too.

    Quote:
  • Free prescriptions.
  • Again, univeralism isn't redistributive (left wing).

    Quote:
  • No bridge tolls.
  • Not in any way redistributive.

    Quote:
  • Nobody in Scotland affected by the forced bedroom tax policy.
  • This may be the best candidate for a left wing policy - but going back to the status quo before the tories' hated bedroom tax is hardly the sign of a radical left wing agenda on the part of the SNP.

    Quote:
  • SNP Government has already extended free childcare provision to 600 hours and has pledged that if re-elected at the next Holyrood election, childcare provision will be extended further still to 1,140 hours per year.
This is universalist, not redistributive.

Quote:
Any of these count?
A good effort, but not good enough. C-.

I'd like to see the Scottish Nationalist Party put its money where its mouth is, and introduce a Scottish income tax top-up to hit the rich and middle classes, to pay for social spending targeted at the those in poverty. Instead, the SNP prefer to lavish money on middle class benefits ... which is better than the tories' policy of lavishing money on the rich, I suppose, but it's not left wing.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #11183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian View Post
I cannot imagine someone seriously making a statement like that who does not suffer from mental health problems. Whether you're trolling or not, I don't know, and frankly I've stopped caring. I remind you though that my comments, that you quote, related to your response to someone talking about the SNP's redistributive policies (or, rather, the lack of them). You listed policies that weren't redistributive and that was what I was pointing out.

For the benefit of everyone else on this forum, here some of the claims in that which were, shall we say, more misguided--
  • In 2010-11, the Scottish Government budget was £29,600m. In 2015-16, it is estimated at £30,167m. In 2015-16 prices, £29,600m is £32,200m. Those figures are rounded slightly, but despite the rhetoric of public spending cuts, the Scottish Government budget has remained roundly flat: there's a fairly small difference in it, certainly not in the order of billions. You can see this in Table 1.01 here: http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0046/00462296.pdf
  • Under the previous charging for prescriptions system, over 90% were dispensed free and 50% of individuals were exempt. This included anyone over sixty, anyone under 18 and in full time education, numerous people who were exempted by their conditions and anyone on an income related benefit. Those receiving regular prescriptions could get a long-term certificate, capping costs.
  • Answering a point about having £1,200 higher public spending per head with suggesting that in some areas its fallen by £90 per head is fundamentally dumb.
Your real character starts to show through when you are losing the argument, insulting someones intelligence and mental health is a weapon of the troll. You definitely must be trolling on here if you are advocating more cuts and don't think any of those policies are 'redistributive' or help out poor/ordinary people.

If the SNP don't have policies to help people out of poverty, then why are the SNP sweeping up votes in deprived areas? Why have they replaced Labour in Scotland as the party of the working people? The council tax freeze for example has not only helped middle class people, it has helped everyone. The Living Wage supported by the Scottish Government is also doing good work.

Quote:
Scotlandís budget has been cut by 9% in real terms
since 2009/10, falling from £31.9 billion to £28.9 billion
in 2014/15. This Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL)
budget covers day to day spending, and Audit Scotland
says it could fall to £25.6 billion by 2018/19.


Since 2009/10
Scotlandís budget has been cut
in by
£3bn

By 2018/19
Scotlandís budget is set to fall by
a further
£3.3bn

Source : Unison
This is all just a distraction from your Tory cuts. That is why people are falling into poverty more, your beloved UK government controls fiscal policy, the welfare system, min wage and so on.

In real terms the Scottish budget is being cut by £6 billion, this is fact. There are more cuts to come. Cuts to jobs and services makes no economic sense but you are calling me dumb?!

If public spending is so high and Swinney has a limitless credit card, we should have no cuts or pressures on public services then?

Not only do your claims do not stack up but the fact you are advocating more cuts to Scotland , would have you pilloried in most communities around the country.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 07:23 PM   #11184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mexico86 View Post
I'd like to see the Scottish Nationalist Party put its money where its mouth is, and introduce a Scottish income tax top-up to hit the rich and middle classes, to pay for social spending targeted at the those in poverty. Instead, the SNP prefer to lavish money on middle class benefits ... which is better than the tories' policy of lavishing money on the rich, I suppose, but it's not left wing.
The Scottish National Party has never been in a position to implement a higher rate of income tax for higher earners until 2018, when the Smith Commission recommendations on income tax is delivered. You would have cried foul if they had implemented their original 'Penny for Scotland' plan of an extra 1p in the pound on the basic rate, as the original devolution settlement made that the only tax level that could be varied. The Calman income tax settlement which is coming soon allows the Scottish Government to change the tax rates by up to ten pence in the pound but this has to happen across every band of tax. That means you can't target high earners specifically either, especially when the relative increase in tax would be higher for lower earners. One pence extra in the pound is 5% of the basic rate but only 2.5% of the higher rate, so it's hardly an incredibly progressive system. The reason the tax system is this way is not because of the SNP, it's because the other parties wanted to ensure it would be politically impossible for the SNP to actually change the rate of tax.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 08:08 PM   #11185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris99 View Post
The overall budget may have remained roughly flat in cash terms but when inflation is taken into account the real terms cut, as shown in the table you linked to, amounts to 10% since 2010.

The capital budget has taken a huge hit after being cut by 25% in real terms since 2010 meaning less cash for new schools, hospitals and roads. This has been mitigated to some extent by the NPD programme but of course we will be paying for NPD schemes over 30 years at high rates of interest no doubt.

I'm not sure why you say the cuts don't amount to billions when the data you linked to actually shows the opposite.
I think you've misread the table there. The table does not have real terms figures for Total DEL, which is the Scottish Government's total budget. It only presents Fiscal DEL, divided into resource and capital. As I said--

"In 2010-11, the Scottish Government budget was £29,600m. In 2015-16, it is estimated at £30,167m. In 2015-16 prices, £29,600m is £32,200m. Those figures are rounded slightly, but despite the rhetoric of public spending cuts, the Scottish Government budget has remained roundly flat"

Feel free to do the Total DEL real terms calculations yourself if you don't believe me. The Scottish Parliament has an inflation tool: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/pa...ess/63552.aspx

Whether capital budgets have been cut by the SNP since 2010 isn't at all relevant. The block grant is not divided up: they can spend what they like on resource spending or capital spending. Only Total DEL is really relevant here.

So yeah, in cash terms the budget has increased by £600m since 2010. In real terms, it's flat.
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Old June 29th, 2015, 08:18 PM   #11186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous_redrum View Post
Your real character starts to show through when you are losing the argument, insulting someones intelligence and mental health is a weapon of the troll. You definitely must be trolling on here if you are advocating more cuts and don't think any of those policies are 'redistributive' or help out poor/ordinary people.
You said something that was frankly rank-raving bonkers and now you're accusing me of trolling for questioning whether it was either nonsense or that you had mental health problems? That is, again, a barmy way to behave. I was being perfectly reasonable with you, and you launch a quite incredible and utterly incomprehensible rant in response. That is not a normal way for people to behave. I am not insulting anything, I questioned your mental health it if that is truly your view you were expressing - I stand by that because I still don't see any other rational reason for someone to say something of that nature.

They are not redistributive as a matter of fact - that is not opinion. I'm not sure if you don't understand what "redistributive" means, but I - and other members on here - have already pointed out why the many things you listed were not redistributive policies.

Quote:
If the SNP don't have policies to help people out of poverty, then why are the SNP sweeping up votes in deprived areas?
This is a question that's entirely irrelevant. It would only be a credible question if you could prove that people in deprived areas only vote on the basis of poverty reducing measures. That is patently not the case.

Quote:
This is all just a distraction from your Tory cuts. That is why people are falling into poverty more, your beloved UK government controls fiscal policy, the welfare system, min wage and so on.
This is false. Last week's UK poverty figures showed that poverty is at the lowest rate since 1994 when the dataset began. The Scottish Government's own Income and Inequality statistics publication - released on the same day last week - shows that, since the Conservatives came into government in 2010, there have been 60,000 children out of poverty and 140,000 individuals taken out of poverty in Scotland alone.

Quote:
In real terms the Scottish budget is being cut by £6 billion, this is fact.
Well, no, it's entirely false. I linked you to the Scottish Government budget document and pointed out where the Total DEL figures were. In cash terms, it has gone up by £600m - in real terms, it is flat (within a rounding of £100m either way). In my last post, I linked to the Scottish Parliament Information Centre's inflation calculation tool, so you can work out the real terms figures yourself if you want.

There's no two ways about that: you've made this up - the Scottish Government's own budget shows you to be making false claims.

Quote:
If public spending is so high and Swinney has a limitless credit card, we should have no cuts or pressures on public services then?
Unfortunately not. John Swinney has spent a lot of money on expensive things that have increased costs considerably for little benefit. He is also affected by things like a faster-ageing population as well as transitional costs for things that I agree with, like the integration of health and social care.

He has cut to spend in other areas. Sadly it is areas like the NHS and schools that he has cut most intensively.
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Last edited by Quirinalian; June 29th, 2015 at 08:28 PM.
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Old June 30th, 2015, 08:05 AM   #11187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirinalian

I think you've misread the table there. The table does not have real terms figures for Total DEL, which is the Scottish Government's total budget. It only presents Fiscal DEL, divided into resource and capital. As I said--

"In 2010-11, the Scottish Government budget was £29,600m. In 2015-16, it is estimated at £30,167m. In 2015-16 prices, £29,600m is £32,200m. Those figures are rounded slightly, but despite the rhetoric of public spending cuts, the Scottish Government budget has remained roundly flat"

Feel free to do the Total DEL real terms calculations yourself if you don't believe me. The Scottish Parliament has an inflation tool: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/pa...ess/63552.aspx

Whether capital budgets have been cut by the SNP since 2010 isn't at all relevant. The block grant is not divided up: they can spend what they like on resource spending or capital spending. Only Total DEL is really relevant here.

So yeah, in cash terms the budget has increased by £600m since 2010. In real terms, it's flat.
The problem with using the Total DEL figures as a measure is they don't tell the whole story. You can see from the table that the 2010/11 Total DEL did not include any borrowing powers whereas the 2015/16 Total DEL includes £685m of new borrowing powers and Financial Transactions which have to be repaid to the Treasury. Cutting the amount of cash allocated to the SG then giving it the ability to borrow a proportion of the amount cut then saying that proportion has therefore not been cut doesn't seem like a reasonable argument.

The table shows that total DEL also includes non-cash DEL. Although this has increased by £400 million since 2010 it's for depreciation and impairements so it doesn't represent spending power for the Scottish Government.

However, even using Total DEL you still get a real terms cut of £2 billion since 2010 by your own figures.

Total Fiscal DEL excludes borrowing, Financial Transactions and non-cash DEL and therefore gives a fairer picture of the effect on the SG's funding for day to day services and infrastructure investment, ie. a real terms cut of around £3 billion since 2010.
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Old June 30th, 2015, 11:10 AM   #11188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mexico86 View Post
First of all, let me say I'm pleasantly surprised to see you trying to make a constructive comment here, while the so-called left wingers Milton and Daeguduke openly refuse (or are unable) to name any redistributive SNP policies.


Again, univeralism isn't redistributive (left wing).
Universal policies are still left-wing. Here's a guide for dummies on the differences between left- and right-wing politics.

p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; }a:link { } Completely ignoring the fact that Holyrood is still incredibly limited as to what legislation they can actually pass. Labour had years in Holyrood and Westminster without passing any redistributive policies but they get a free pass. All the policies you ignore due to being "universal" will ultimately impact more on those earning lower wages. You are also ignoring the fact that means-testing policies often fall down as the rich can easily hide wealth with the help of an imaginative accountant and lawyer.

Some of the SNP's redistributive and universal policies that are definitely left wing:
50p tax rate, elderly and disabled bus travel, free education / prescriptions / elderly care, modern apprenticeships and education maintenance allowances, living wage, council tax freeze, looking to replace council tax, new land tax bands,

p { margin-bottom: 0.25cm; line-height: 120%; }a:link { } Admittedly the SNP could re-introduce the 50p tax rate now, although I suspect they were hoping that Labour would win the general election and it could be introduced UK-wide. As it stands I doubt it would really work as anybody with a second address or working for a UK-wide company could easily shift their pay to avoid the tax. It should be noted that Labour's support for the 50p tax rate is relatively recent, it was only introduced as an "emergency tax hike" by Brown, with the intent that it would be reduced after the 2008 financial crisis.

Quote:
Another example of right wing policymaking by the SNP: dropping plans to reregulate bus services after a large donation from bus spiv Brian Souter.
Regulation is already possible, has been for a decade now and the SNP has not done anything to prevent that. The Transport Act (2005) allows Quality Contracts:
Quote:
A Quality Contract (QC) is a franchise type arrangement and gives a transport authority more control than can be achieved through a statutory Quality Partnership (sQP). Under a QC authorities are able to determine what local services should be provided and specify routes, the standard and quality of services and fares. Local transport authorities can introduce a QC for a particular area if they can demonstrate that such a contract is necessary in order to implement their local transport policies.
You'd have to ask why the largely Labour controlled councils don't make proper use of this legislation. Or why Labour in Westminster didn't re-regulate buses, or re-nationalise the railways. If Labour support increasing the minimum wage and publicly operated railways then why fight so hard against these powers being devolved? If they were left wing then they'd be happy that left-wing policies could be enacted in Holyrood before they get into power again at Westminster - is it left-wing to deny other parts of the country policies simply because they lose an election? "If I can't enact it, then nobody should benefit" is hardly left-wing.

Quote:
Three Labour policies that the SNP eventually copied, one of which the SNP opposed (50 p tax rate) until the dying days of the election - a change of heart obviously motivated by the need to secure votes, rather then principles.
Paint it however you like, but you are ignoring the fact that the SNP could only really enact one of those policies in Holyrood and it would have limited use. At the end of the day the only policies you named as being redistributive are ones that the SNP support. It is telling how long Labour waited until speaking out about the bedroom tax - obviously something they oppose just to win votes.


Some of Labour's other policies:
War in Iraq

Deregulation of the banking industry
Continued deregulation of buses
Trident / nuclear weapons

EU reform / preventing further integration / EU migrant controls / EU benefit caps and restrictions

Reduction in immigration
University fees
Privatization of utilities, transport (trains and buses), student loans, prisons, NHS. I could go on but thankfully someone else has written a substantial list.

How are these policies redistributive? Or left-wing? You've still failed to name a single redistributive policy that Labour enacted at Holyrood.
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Old Yesterday, 03:27 AM   #11189
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Originally Posted by Quirinalian View Post
Unfortunately not. John Swinney has spent a lot of money on expensive things that have increased costs considerably for little benefit. He is also affected by things like a faster-ageing population as well as transitional costs for things that I agree with, like the integration of health and social care.

He has cut to spend in other areas. Sadly it is areas like the NHS and schools that he has cut most intensively.
I have an interest in this, where can i go for further reading?

thanks

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Old Today, 02:33 PM   #11190
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An interesting week then...

FFA proposals by the majority of Scottish MPs elected with a mandate for such voted down in Westminster while EVEL is put forward which allows unelected Scottish Lords to tinker with all legislation but gives Scottish MPs the prospect of being overruled by a double veto in such cases.

I'm sympathetic to the notion of some kind of solution to the problem but this...

Bit of a mess all round, no?
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Old Today, 08:18 PM   #11191
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Old Today, 08:36 PM   #11192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous_redrum View Post
A careerist at age 20? Least she has a degree(first class honours), which is more than can be said for Jim Murphy(9 years at uni).

How's the new club doing Jagerman? Convicted criminal as Chairman, suits that place in Govan eh?
Looks like irony and humour are lost on angry cybernats like yourself.

Yeah pre season's going great so far. In keeping with the chairman's criminal past we've appointed Jim Torbett (I know you remember him ) as youth director. Happy Days
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Old Today, 09:21 PM   #11193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagerman View Post
Looks like irony and humour are lost on angry cybernats like yourself.

Yeah pre season's going great so far. In keeping with the chairman's criminal past we've appointed Jim Torbett (I know you remember him ) as youth director. Happy Days
Ah the Sevco goto, child abuse.

Have a word with yourself, man!
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Old Today, 09:52 PM   #11194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous_redrum View Post
Ah the Sevco goto, child abuse.

Have a word with yourself, man!
Your right, lets just sweep it under the carpet and move on.......
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Old Today, 09:53 PM   #11195
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FFS guys.
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Old Today, 09:58 PM   #11196
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FFS guys.
I cracked a political joke (albeit not a great one) and that bitter c unt brought up football. He wanted a reaction and got one.
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