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Old April 20th, 2017, 08:03 PM   #18541
ennisc
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I have no problem with Manchester at all, I actually quite like the place. However, I do find it very disappointing that the city's leadership are willing to go to extreme lengths to disbenefit their neighbour, despite the cost to the wider regional economy of such behaviour. Far from hoping to see Manchester suffer, we are concerned at the unique threat posed to Liverpool's economy posed by a city 30 miles away being given dedicated new infrastructure while our own metropolitan area receives none at all - all in a supposedly national project.

Do you not think it hypocrisy to argue that 'fairness for the East' is a legitimate consideration in the design of HS2 while rubbishing similar calls for 'fair treatment' for Liverpool? If the obvious impact of HS2 going straight to Manchester but not reaching Liverpool are to be discounted, then I don't see why it should matter if the North West is better served than Yorkshire, the North East and East Midlands. In the real world away from political somersaults to justify a poorly made decision of course, these things matter very much.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 08:07 PM   #18542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon10 View Post


A couple of studies for bridges and viaducts... .
That map is one of the best depictions of the actual 'Y' route I have seen. A number of things are obvious to me.

1) The big dogleg that going via Brum adds to the Eastern branch. It adds over 25 miles compared to a straight route going to the east of Leicester / Kettering & either side of Bedford. I estimate that a direct HS4 line From Toton to London would only require 110-112 miles of new railway and timings could one day be reduced from 52 to just 38 or 39 minutes.
2) The rather convoluted M18 route through Yorkshire, this must add at least 5 miles, even if HS2 eventually extends past Weatherby.
3) Should HS4 be built and paths get released on HS2 , there is scope near Lichfield for a spur from HS2 north onto an existing line that could allow Burton & Derby to be potentially served in about 50/56 minutes (my estimate) from London!
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Old April 20th, 2017, 08:25 PM   #18543
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Originally Posted by ennisc View Post
I have no problem with Manchester at all, I actually quite like the place. However, I do find it very disappointing that the city's leadership are willing to go to extreme lengths to disbenefit their neighbour, despite the cost to the wider regional economy of such behaviour. Far from hoping to see Manchester suffer, we are concerned at the unique threat posed to Liverpool's economy posed by a city 30 miles away being given dedicated new infrastructure while our own metropolitan area receives none at all - all in a supposedly national project.

Do you not think it hypocrisy to argue that 'fairness for the East' is a legitimate consideration in the design of HS2 while rubbishing similar calls for 'fair treatment' for Liverpool? If the obvious impact of HS2 going straight to Manchester but not reaching Liverpool are to be discounted, then I don't see why it should matter if the North West is better served than Yorkshire, the North East and East Midlands. In the real world away from political somersaults to justify a poorly made decision of course, these things matter very much.

Liverpool is a slightly smaller market for rail passengers than both York and Newcastle individually. Both of these very important markets are getting exactly the same type of operation (part running on classic lines to existing city centre stations) as Liverpool, so don't try to make out your city is somehow being uniquely disadvantaged.


Actually York and Newcastle do not gain in service frequency from HS2, but Liverpool does - big time! The current service of 17 direct trains a day from London to Lime St (16 Sat/15 Sun) goes up to 32, EVERY day. Direct HS2 trains every half hour, to the heart of the city. Manchester only gets 48 despite having well over twice as many passengers. On that basis Liverpool is being favoured, even if the running time difference is greater than today.


Truth is the North West as a whole is getting a great deal from HS2. Trains will be serving seven stations directly, all of them at least 40 minutes faster to London than today.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #18544
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Frequency improvements are of course welcome, but these comparisons are a nonsensical argument seeing as HS2 was never going to run anywhere near Newcastle (quite different from Liverpool where the line will be just 20 miles away).
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Old April 20th, 2017, 09:06 PM   #18545
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Frequency improvements are of course welcome, but these comparisons are a nonsensical argument seeing as HS2 was never going to run anywhere near Newcastle (quite different from Liverpool where the line will be just 20 miles away).
Who says HS2 won't eventually reach Newcastle on dedicated tracks? Or Liverpool for that matter? You may even get that spur quite quickly due to NPR. The point is it's going to take 16 years to build the initial 'Y' section of about 340 route miles - further additions can come later. If a larger or comparable market to Liverpool was getting dedicated tracks in 2033 you would have a good point about receiving unfair treatment. But that isn't happening is it? So you haven't got a case. I don't suppose the non served citizens of Nottingham or Bradford feel much sympathy for your position, the taxpayer funding two direct trains an hour to your city centre. While they have to drive to a railhead or catch a connecting train.

In terms of service frequency and seating capacity why do people gloss over the fact that Liverpool already has a vastly inferior service to Manchester? This must already be causing problems - and some of the trains are now very slow, taking 2hrs 20 or more (average speed just 83mph - HS2 from 2027 delivers consistent 125mph averages). So HS2 is not making anything worse than it already is. You clearly have a blind spot about that. Today only three trains from Liverpool manage to arrive in London by the end of the weekend morning peak (09.30) - HS2 can transform that to five or six arrivals by 09.30.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 09:12 PM   #18546
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This would all be wonderful if not for the fact that a major competitor for investment situated 30 miles down the road will be receiving a far better service from HS2. Do you reject the idea that Liverpool's economy will suffer because of this relative disadvantage? Perhaps you might have some reassuring thoughts as to why this will not do damage to Liverpool and its efforts to attract investment, because regarding things at present all HS2 will do is unfairly direct all attention towards Manchester.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 09:27 PM   #18547
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Vulcan, why don't you give up? These people will never understand, nor do they want to understand what you are trying to explain.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #18548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ennisc View Post
This would all be wonderful if not for the fact that a major competitor for investment situated 30 miles down the road will be receiving a far better service from HS2. Do you reject the idea that Liverpool's economy will suffer because of this relative disadvantage? Perhaps you might have some reassuring thoughts as to why this will not do damage to Liverpool and its efforts to attract investment, because regarding things at present all HS2 will do is unfairly direct all attention towards Manchester.
One part of the equation with Manchester is better, one is worse (after 2033). So in your mind is Liverpool only in competition with Manchester for exactly the same type of businesses, and that no other UK cities matter at all? Do you not actually think that your city has any unique advantages (location, educational establishments, history, workforce etc.) that will be enhanced by the round journey from London dropping from four and a half hours to just over three? Is there no chance that Liverpool being closer in time to London than Norwich, Cardiff, Wolverhampton, Exeter, Portsmouth, Wakefield will not be of some benefit - regardless of Manchester?

This dogged need to see absolutely everything in life through the prism of nearby Manchester seems incredibly peculiar to those of us with no particular attachment to either city. I have to say it isn't normal and it isn't healthy. If this was an obsession with another person I would be thinking that extensive therapy was the answer.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 10:05 PM   #18549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Negjana View Post
Vulcan, why don't you give up? These people will never understand, nor do they want to understand what you are trying to explain.

Lol! Maybe its just because I'm fascinated by people who cannot see the fully rounded picture. Or maybe I just like to argue/debate till the cows come home?

All a side show of course - HS2 is 99% certain to be built in the 'Y' shape we all know, hopefully completed by 2033 - what comes that after doesn't matter much at the moment. The first thing is get phase 1 built and phase 2a/2b authorised.

On another matter - yesterday's Transport Committee TV with Higgins and the Boiled Egg being grilled is here:

http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index...5-e60053182492

Can't find a written account though.


EDIT: Essentially one man (Chris Reynolds) was seconded from CH2M for a matter of years working on phase 1. He wrote a report. He returned March - June 2016 to deal with community relations in phase 2. Employed again by CH2M in September, sat in with the team making the phase 2b design bid for four days, they didn't inform HS2 Ltd - who would have said "don't do that" had they been asked. Mace was alerted to this individual by a whistleblower during the 10-day standstill and challenged HS2 Ltd. They started grilling CH2M, and were minded to disbar them for bringing the process into disrepute by non-declaration if satisfactory answers were not forthcoming (their Counsel's legal advice to allow due process). CH2M then withdrew before being pushed, for reasons not known. Higgins stated it would be unfair to the other (compliant) bidders to re-run the process, so it was awarded to Bechel. Their bid was slightly better than Mace's and 15% cheaper. All bids and processes are always evaluated independently. Now it is in the 10-day standstill period for that contract award.

Higgins had no information that Mr Reynolds had specific or sensitive info that would has assisted the CH2M bid for £170million - they already work with two other partners on phase 1, a contract that is worth (to them) £150 million. The company has an inherent advantage in the bidding process according to Higgins as it did similar work on phase 1 which stood the test of passing through Parliament.

HS2 Ltd will from now on vet named individuals working on contractor bids to establish if ex employees / secondees / those with conflicts of interest are present. This in addition to bidders signing the standard declaration to prevent conflicts of interest - on pain of being kicked off a lucrative contract.

The SoS stated no delay to phase 2b legislative process as the matter had been dealt with quickly, hoping that in future streamlined hybrid bills would allow phase 2b and CR2 to quickly get through Parliament. Confident the matter has been dealt with properly, hopes no legal challenges.
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Last edited by Vulcan's Finest; April 21st, 2017 at 12:43 AM.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 07:49 AM   #18550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Or maybe I just like to argue/debate till the cows come home?
Ain't gonna happen.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 12:28 PM   #18551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
That map is one of the best depictions of the actual 'Y' route I have seen.

And particularly note the convenient access to the canal system for the planned water troughs on the line.

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Old April 21st, 2017, 12:52 PM   #18552
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I like the map too. I like the way it combines HS2 and Bargeway together, it sums up the service provision pretty neatly! Although perhaps not in quite the way intended!
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Old April 21st, 2017, 01:09 PM   #18553
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I imagine that Mad John will read a wicked conspiracy into the omission from the map of the Manchester Ship Canal
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Old April 21st, 2017, 02:36 PM   #18554
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Quote:
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I imagine that Mad John will read a wicked conspiracy into the omission from the map of the Manchester Ship Canal
I believe the Manchester Ship Canal was actually a means for Manchester to take Liverpool's rightful water supply. Is there no depths to which those crafty Manchester buggers will not sink? Will nobody think of the children!
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Old April 21st, 2017, 04:14 PM   #18555
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I imagine that Mad John will read a wicked conspiracy into the omission from the map of the Manchester Ship Canal

At one point he suggested draining the canal and using the bottom of it as a HS2 trackbed. That was actually quite sensible by his standards!
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Old April 21st, 2017, 04:22 PM   #18556
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Quote:
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At one point he suggested draining the canal and using the bottom of it as a HS2 trackbed. That was actually quite sensible by his standards!
Indeed so; though quite what would happen to all the displaced floodwater wasn't fully explained.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 05:25 PM   #18557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
One part of the equation with Manchester is better, one is worse (after 2033). So in your mind is Liverpool only in competition with Manchester for exactly the same type of businesses, and that no other UK cities matter at all? Do you not actually think that your city has any unique advantages (location, educational establishments, history, workforce etc.) that will be enhanced by the round journey from London dropping from four and a half hours to just over three? Is there no chance that Liverpool being closer in time to London than Norwich, Cardiff, Wolverhampton, Exeter, Portsmouth, Wakefield will not be of some benefit - regardless of Manchester?

This dogged need to see absolutely everything in life through the prism of nearby Manchester seems incredibly peculiar to those of us with no particular attachment to either city. I have to say it isn't normal and it isn't healthy. If this was an obsession with another person I would be thinking that extensive therapy was the answer.
I think that it is ridiculous that the only major cities with worse journey times on HS2 are either in Scotland or nearly a hundred miles to the North East of the end of the line. Liverpool has many unique advantages over its competitors, however, these are being deliberately drowned out by state intervention on behalf of a rival city. The time savings on a round trip to Liverpool are pathetic compared with what rivals will enjoy.
Are you really so hostile to the Liverpool area that you are pleased that the city will not be properly served by HS2?
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Old April 21st, 2017, 05:50 PM   #18558
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Originally Posted by ennisc View Post
Are you really so hostile to the Liverpool area that you are pleased that the city will not be properly served by HS2?

What is your definition of being 'properly served'?


.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 06:59 PM   #18559
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Some info. about rolling stock tendering including a bit of the technical requirements...

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ck-procurement
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Old April 21st, 2017, 07:15 PM   #18560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ennisc View Post
I think that it is ridiculous that the only major cities with worse journey times on HS2 are either in Scotland or nearly a hundred miles to the North East of the end of the line. Liverpool has many unique advantages over its competitors, however, these are being deliberately drowned out by state intervention on behalf of a rival city. The time savings on a round trip to Liverpool are pathetic compared with what rivals will enjoy.
Are you really so hostile to the Liverpool area that you are pleased that the city will not be properly served by HS2?
Eh? So to you a typical round trip saving of approx. 84 minutes, paid for by all UK taxpayers (many of whom won't even live near a HS2 route) is 'pathetic' is it? Leeds in comparison gets a round trip cut of 95-100 minutes, not much difference is there? York and Newcastle are far worse off than Liverpool - they 'only' get 60-65 minutes cut off current schedules. York is nearer to London, provides more passengers and is only 10 miles from a HS2 junction. Yet it is clearly getting less benefit from HS2, especially as it has to share two thirds of its services with Newcastle.

No, FYI I'm not 'hostile' to any city or group of people - I just understand the clear logic used by the government and the political need to keep within a fixed and agreed budget. This is the initial HSR build - they quite rightly prioritised the four largest markets for rail (London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester). Doing anything else would have been rather strange. Your city provides far fewer rail journeys than those four cities, so why on earth should it get the same level of investment from general taxation as these more important destinations?

I'm pleased of course that Liverpool is still going to be an important part of the HS2 offering - it is after all being granted 11.1 % of the precious train paths from Euston to serve a city that currently provides about 6.2% of the passenger market. Far from unfair.

'A rival city'.... says it all really. It really is all about Manchester for you, as I already posted. Why do you have this fixation with somewhere else? Your city is also getting 'state intervention', can't you see that?
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