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Old August 14th, 2005, 12:10 AM   #21
sleepy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPKneworleans
You're too kind! (I seriously mean that.) Actually, you did not offend me at all. I just didn't understand what your point was. Nevertheless, I don't think I'd want to live in a city that coddled "evangelical empires" that have no business being tax exempt.
I think the point about white flight was that cities who experienced it are more liberal because they have a higher black population. To take the "white flight effect" out of a city, you would probably have to use some metro area basis for liberal/conservative.

I also question whether or not Charlotte has had white flight. Perhaps the city has just annexed white areas. It would be interesting to compare the racial composition of Charlotte's city limits in 1980 with the racial composition of those same 1980 city limits today.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 02:34 AM   #22
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Democrat does not equal liberal.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 02:47 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencer114
Democrat does not equal liberal.
True but Republican certainly does not equal liberal. Their whole agenda is practically based on "liberal bashing".
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Old August 14th, 2005, 02:56 AM   #24
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To me, Richmond has always seemed to be the backbone of old, conservative gov't; and a large number of the residents seem to be on the conservative side of things...I personally find it odd to rank it that high.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 03:07 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyHairShawn
Charlotte's conservative image is deteriorating with all the influx of new residents from more liberal setting. Charlotte and Mecklenburg County did vote for Kerry, but not by a large percentage, but it was more than a simple majority. Charlotte City Council is overhelmingly Democrats, with 7 Democrats over 4 Republicans, including the Mayor since Charlotte has a Council-Manager City government. Out of the 4 Republicans, 2 are moderate Republicans and the others are conservative or ultra-conservative. Charlotte has 3 At-Large Council seats (not counting the Mayor's seat,) and two belong to the Democrats. The top vote getter for the At-Large seats is usually by tradition the Mayor Pro-Tempore which is currently a Democrat. This past spring when the City Council was debating over redistricting, one of the Republican Councilman was like, I know we Republicans will always be outnumbered from now on according to the districts, the only way we can regain control of the City Council is by getting all the current district we control and get all the At-Large seats. Even by doing that it will only be a simple majority. The County in general is a bit more conservative than the City Council due to the representation of the suburbs. Currently it's a 6-3 Democrats majority, with all Democrats controlling the At-Large seats. However, Charlotte is a very progessive city.
Kerry is from North Carolina. The fact that Mecklenburg County voted for him is not a revelation. The fact that a presidentail candidate had only a marginal home victory is a reflection of just how conservative the Charlotte region is. Why pretend to be liberal? Charlotte is a well known conservative bastion. I do not see a problem with that.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 04:00 AM   #26
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^You meant Edwards, Kerry is from Mass. I'm more of a moderate leaning towards liberal. Charlotte having a conservative image irks me, but in reality, that conservativism is going away as Charlotte progresses. Yes, being conservative don't always mean Republican and vice versa, but generally most liberals are Democrats and vice versa. I've heard of conservative Democrats before, but they are rare, but I have yet to hear about a liberal Republican. There are different type of liberals and conservatives. Vulcan, I think the conservativism you are talking about in Charlotte is the social aspect of conservativism, Charlotte does have a strong tie to religion. Hell, three decardes ago, Charlotte was ranked number 1 in the number of churches per a capital. In Optimist Park, a black neighborhood right outside of Uptown Charlotte, encompasses an area of 10 city blocks, in that 10 city blocks there are 3 churches. Charlotte is a conservative city regarding social issues and religion, but on other issues we are not. Charlotte City Council just allowed sex same couple who are city employee benefits that married couples get though, signs that the City is loosing up. Charlotte is very strong on the arts, currently we are number two in art fundraising per a capital. Charlotte is fiscal conservative though, no tax hikes in almost 2 decardes.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 04:11 AM   #27
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It's Per Capita

What makes a city liberal, in your point of view?
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Old August 14th, 2005, 04:58 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
^ in response to Carolina Blue's racist "White Flight" statement:

Charlotte has worked hard to develop a conservative image. It's the proud home for several evangelical empires. Consider all the televison evangelist from Charlotte - the Bakers and Tammy faye, the Graham ministries (huge evangelical empire). Apparently, there is a big audience for this type programing which is not normally associated with liberalism. The city's main corridor is is proudly the Billy Graham freeway as well as any other street they can possibly name after him. Atlanta has several "Peachtree Streets" Charlotte has "Billy Graham".

That's cool that Charlotte has 70% white compared to Birmingham's 30%, but that does not make Charlotte more liberal as a result. Charlotte is not a San Francisco or even an Austin TX. Like Birmingham' it's part of the bible belt. So yeah I will say the city that has experienced "white flight" and where blacks out number whites 2 to 1 (like Birmingham) is more liberal than a city that is dominated by a white southern populace - that tend to be more conservative. What's wrong with that? I just merely posted the results of a study. I'm sorry it offended you.
Racist? What’s racist about what I said? I lived in Birmingham for three years. It is well known that “white flight”, i.e. the mass exodus of people, namely Caucasians, is a phenomenon that has plagued the city of Birmingham for YEARS, thus the continuing need for the city’s occupational tax. Personally, I just think a city can't be “polarized” and considered “liberal” at the same time. As for Charlotte, it is what it is. PrettyHairShawn did a good job of summarizing the current state of politics in the city.

And even though JPKneworleans responded to your “sorry I offended you" comment, I thought you were directing that to me. If so, no offense taken at all. As an African-American Independent with an undeclared political affiliation, I don’t equate liberal with progressive.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 08:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue
Racist? What’s racist about what I said? I lived in Birmingham for three years. It is well known that “white flight”, i.e. the mass exodus of people, namely Caucasians, is a phenomenon that has plagued the city of Birmingham for YEARS, thus the continuing need for the city’s occupational tax. Personally, I just think a city can't be “polarized” and considered “liberal” at the same time. As for Charlotte, it is what it is. PrettyHairShawn did a good job of summarizing the current state of politics in the city.

And even though JPKneworleans responded to your “sorry I offended you" comment, I thought you were directing that to me. If so, no offense taken at all. As an African-American Independent with an undeclared political affiliation, I don’t equate liberal with progressive.
okay..well
So I can conclude from your past statements that Birmingham is 1) not progressive and 2) very conservative (or not liberal). The reason for #1 and #2 is that all the whites have moved away and what is left is the 70% African American populace that runs the affairs of Birmingham - city. That's a rude awakening. Since I'm the last caucasion left in Birmingham, I will be certain to turn the lights out before I move to Hoover.

While I respect your opinoin, I think you have taken the results of this one study (going off on a "progressive" tangent) and turned it into an opportunity slam Birmingham - the City that was "progressive" enough to confront bigotry and pave the way for the Civil Rights legislation. Maybe you did not visit the Civil Rights museum while you lived in Birmingham.

I do not know what your definition of liberal / progressive encompasses, but somewhere in my definition would be the respect for civil liberties. Birmingham African Americans are capable of being quite progressive and this is being expressed from a caucasion living in Birmingham. And being a cauccasion in Birmingham, I've never experienced the exclusion or polarization from the Birmingham African American community, which you stated as a characteristic of my city.

BTW: Black Enterprise magazine recently ranked Birmingham (City) among the top ten places to live for African American professionals. Moreover, the city of Birmingham has recently ben chosen by the Partners for Livable Communities as one of 30 top U.S. cities as "having developed innovative approaches to prepare for the New Economy through the creative strategies, actions, and visions of their leadership" http://www.mostlivable.org/

Perhaps you relied on stereotyping to form your opinion of Birmingham rather than taking the initiative to learn the truth.

Last edited by Vulcan; August 14th, 2005 at 07:30 PM.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 09:35 AM   #30
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Sounds to me what some people are saying is that if a city is liberal because it's black, it doesn't count as much as a city that's a white liberal city.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 05:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy
Sounds to me what some people are saying is that if a city is liberal because it's black, it doesn't count as much as a city that's a white liberal city.
BINGO and supposevly Charlotte is the liberal example in the South and should have been recognized as such. That's enough to make Tammy Faye's mascara run.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 08:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepy
Sounds to me what some people are saying is that if a city is liberal because it's black, it doesn't count as much as a city that's a white liberal city.
That sounds racist to me. Moreover, generally speaking, blacks are somewhat socially conservative.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 08:15 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
BINGO and supposevly Charlotte is the liberal example in the South and should have been recognized as such. That's enough to make Tammy Faye's mascara run.
Hey! Watch it. Tammy Faye has turned into one cool lady. Ever see The Eyes of Tammy Faye? In my opinion, Tammy Faye is much more "Christian" (in the true sense of the word) than any of the other so-called "evangelicals."
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Old August 14th, 2005, 08:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPKneworleans
Hey! Watch it. Tammy Faye has turned into one cool lady. Ever see The Eyes of Tammy Faye? In my opinion, Tammy Faye is much more "Christian" (in the true sense of the word) than any of the other so-called "evangelicals."
Hey yeah - I did see her on a reality show. I forget the name.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 09:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
okay..well
So I can conclude from your past statements that Birmingham is 1) not progressive and 2) very conservative (or not liberal). The reason for #1 and #2 is that all the whites have moved away and what is left is the 70% African American populace that runs the affairs of Birmingham - city. That's a rude awakening. Since I'm the last caucasion left in Birmingham, I will be certain to turn the lights out before I move to Hoover.

While I respect your opinoin, I think you have taken the results of this one study (going off on a "progressive" tangent) and turned it into an opportunity slam Birmingham - the City that was "progressive" enough to confront bigotry and pave the way for the Civil Rights legislation. Maybe you did not visit the Civil Rights museum while you lived in Birmingham.

I do not know what your definition of liberal / progressive encompasses, but somewhere in my definition would be the respect for civil liberties. Birmingham African Americans are capable of being quite progressive and this is being expressed from a caucasion living in Birmingham. And being a cauccasion in Birmingham, I've never experienced the exclusion or polarization from the Birmingham African American community, which you stated as a characteristic of my city.

BTW: Black Enterprise magazine recently ranked Birmingham (City) among the top ten places to live for African American professionals. Moreover, the city of Birmingham has recently ben chosen by the Partners for Livable Communities as one of 30 top U.S. cities as "having developed innovative approaches to prepare for the New Economy through the creative strategies, actions, and visions of their leadership" http://www.mostlivable.org/

Perhaps you relied on stereotyping to form your opinion of Birmingham rather than taking the initiative to learn the truth.
Please don’t “conclude” anything. The statements I made, are the statements I made. The ONLY point of my disagreement with Birmingham being described as the most liberal place in the South is the same as the point spencer114 made, “Democrat does not equal Liberal”. Unfortunately, as everyone who lives in that community knows, Whites and Blacks in Birmingham are in constant conflict and often vote on issues based on perceived racial views and not simply political views. This is evidenced by the defeat of such well known initiatives as MAPS, BARTA and even Gov. Riley’s infamous Amendment 1 (which voters in Jefferson County did reject along with the rest of Alabama).

Link:
http://www.sos.state.al.us/downloads...ion&types=Data

To an outsider who has never visited the city, one might draw a conclusion from that study that Birmingham is “San Francisco South”, “Boston in Bama”, “The Cradle of Southern Liberalism”. As someone who lived there, I know those comparisons couldn’t be further from the truth. When I think of liberal communities in the South, I think of places like New Orleans, Atlanta or Durham, NC. Places that aren’t just liberal based on their voting record, but also where people live in “unity” because of their shared philosophies and vision.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 09:54 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue
Please don’t “conclude” anything. The statements I made, are the statements I made. The ONLY point of my disagreement with Birmingham being described as the most liberal place in the South is the same as the point spencer114 made, “Democrat does not equal Liberal”. Unfortunately, as everyone who lives in that community knows, Whites and Blacks in Birmingham are in constant conflict and often vote on issues based on perceived racial views and not simply political views. This is evidenced by the defeat of such well known initiatives as MAPS, BARTA and even Gov. Riley’s infamous Amendment 1 (which voters in Jefferson County did reject along with the rest of Alabama).

Link:
http://www.sos.state.al.us/downloads...ion&types=Data

To an outsider who has never visited the city, one might draw a conclusion from that study that Birmingham is “San Francisco South”, “Boston in Bama”, “The Cradle of Southern Liberalism”. As someone who lived there, I know those comparisons couldn’t be further from the truth. When I think of liberal communities in the South, I think of places like New Orleans, Atlanta or Durham, NC. Places that aren’t just liberal based on their voting record, but also where people live in “unity” because of their shared philosophies and vision.
I think you are confusing Jefferson County and the City of Birmingham. They are two very distinct poliutical entities. As pertaining to the above mentioned progressive agenda defeats you mentioned. They were defeated countywide, not Birmingham citywide.

Let us not forget that Birmingham only accounts for 30% of Jefferson County Alabama's population. Moreover, Birmingham only accounts for less than 20% of the population of the entire Birmingham-Hoover Metropolitan Area. I think the polarization you speak of is more of a central city - suburban polarization. Not a polarization within the city of Birmingham. Most precincts in Birmingham city passed Amemnment One, MAPS, etc.. It was the conservative suburban communities in Jefferson County that defeated it.Birmingham is a much more mature metropolitan region than Charlotte. Central City - Suburban polarization is a foreign concept to Charlotte because Charlotte proper is mostly suburban - not urban.

I've been to Durham. I've been to Charlotte and neither of those cities have anything on the scale/ size of Birmingham's liberal Southside, Forest Park, Crestwood region. In a geographic sense, Downtown Charlotte is quite small compared to Birmingham. It's like trying to compqare apples and oranges.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 09:58 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue
Please don’t “conclude” anything. The statements I made, are the statements I made. The ONLY point of my disagreement with Birmingham being described as the most liberal place in the South is the same as the point spencer114 made, “Democrat does not equal Liberal”. Unfortunately, as everyone who lives in that community knows, Whites and Blacks in Birmingham are in constant conflict and often vote on issues based on perceived racial views and not simply political views. This is evidenced by the defeat of such well known initiatives as MAPS, BARTA and even Gov. Riley’s infamous Amendment 1 (which voters in Jefferson County did reject along with the rest of Alabama).

Link:
http://www.sos.state.al.us/downloads...ion&types=Data

To an outsider who has never visited the city, one might draw a conclusion from that study that Birmingham is “San Francisco South”, “Boston in Bama”, “The Cradle of Southern Liberalism”. As someone who lived there, I know those comparisons couldn’t be further from the truth. When I think of liberal communities in the South, I think of places like New Orleans, Atlanta or Durham, NC. Places that aren’t just liberal based on their voting record, but also where people live in “unity” because of their shared philosophies and vision.
I think you are confusing Jefferson County and the City of Birmingham. They are two very distinct political entities. As pertaining to the above mentioned progressive agenda defeats you mentioned. They were defeated countywide, not Birmingham citywide.

Let us not forget that Birmingham only accounts for 30% of Jefferson County Alabama's population. Moreover, Birmingham only accounts for less than 20% of the population of the entire Birmingham-Hoover Metropolitan Area. I think the polarization you speak of is more of a central city - suburban polarization. Not a polarization within the city of Birmingham. Most precincts in Birmingham city passed Amemnment One, MAPS, etc.. It was the conservative suburban communities in Jefferson County that defeated it.Birmingham is a much more mature metropolitan region than Charlotte. Central City - Suburban polarization is a foreign concept to Charlotte because Charlotte proper is mostly suburban - not urban.

I've been to Durham. I've been to Charlotte and neither of those cities have anything on the scale/ size of Birmingham's liberal Southside, Forest Park, Crestwood region. In a geographic sense, Downtown Charlotte is quite small compared to Downtown Birmingham. It's like trying to compare apples and oranges.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 10:31 PM   #38
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You know what; I went back and looked at that study again. I take it all back; Birmingham is indeed the most liberal city in the South.

Link:
http://votingresearch.org/USAstudyoped.doc
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Old August 14th, 2005, 11:24 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPKneworleans
You're too kind! (I seriously mean that.) Actually, you did not offend me at all. I just didn't understand what your point was. Nevertheless, I don't think I'd want to live in a city that coddled "evangelical empires" that have no business being tax exempt.
Charlotte does not "coddle" "evangelical empires". Of the two listed, only one, "Billy Graham Ministries" is located in the city. Jim and Tammy were based in South Carolina. BTW, what's the difference between being home to Billy Graham vs. the homes of Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Methodists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc...?
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Old August 14th, 2005, 11:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
^ in response to Carolina Blue's racist "White Flight" statement:
Here’s the full article for anyone too lazy to visit the link and the complete list of Southern cities. And to think, you dogged me out about my white flight comment when that’s exactly the conclusion made by this study that YOU posted.

Being Liberal Now Means Being African American

By Phil Reiff and Jason Alderman

If American liberals had four legs and fur, they would have been put on the Endangered Species List following last year’s Presidential election. Defining who is liberal has become a national sport among politicians, as Democrats frantically run from the moniker, while Republicans hurl the invective blindly at everyone on the other side of the aisle.

New research done by the Bay Area Center for Voting Research (BACVR) reveals who the real liberals in American are and the answer is not the tree-hugging, ponytail wearing ex-hippies you might expect. Instead, the new face of American liberalism is of a decidedly different hue. The nation’s remaining liberals are overwhelming African Americans.

The BACVR study that ranks the political ideology of every major city in the country shows that cities with large black populations dominate the list of liberal communities. The research finds that Detroit is the most liberal city in the United States and has one of the highest concentrations of African American residents of any major city. Over 81% of the population in Detroit is African American, compared to the national average of 12.3%. In fact, the average percentage of African American residents in the 25 most liberal cities in the country is 40.3%, more than three times the national rate.

The list of America’s most liberal cities reads like a who’s who of prominent African American communities. Gary, Washington D.C., Newark, Flint, Cleveland, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Birmingham have long had prominent black populations. While most black voters have consistently supported Democrats since the 1960s, it is the white liberals that have slowly withered away over the decades, leaving African Americans as the sole standard bearers for the left.

Despite being the core of America’s liberal base, a major split exists between who the nation’s liberals are and who leads them politically. White politicians still control the levers of power within the Democratic Party, and black faces are rare around the decision making tables of America’s liberal advocacy groups.

While there are some noteworthy pockets of liberals who are not African American, these places end up being the exceptions. College towns like Berkeley and Cambridge have modest black populations, but remain bastions of upper middle-class, white, intellectual liberalism. These liberal communities, however, are more reminiscent of penguins clustering together around a shrinking iceberg, than of a vibrant growing political movement.

Further reinforcing this racial and ideological divide is BACVR research which shows that the most conservative city in America is the ultra white community of Provo, Utah, where less than 1% of the population is black.

Political pundits have noted the highly polarized nature of the American electorate, postulating that religion, age, education, wealth, and even the love of car racing are at the heart of the schism between liberals and conservatives. While these experts have identified some of the symptoms of our national rift, they have missed the root cause.

BACVR’s research gives us the real answer, disheartening as it may be. The great political divide in America today is not red vs. blue, north vs. south, costal vs. interior, or even rich vs. poor – it is now clearly black vs. white.

-----------------------------
Phil Reiff and Jason Alderman are directors at the Bay Area Center for Voting Research, a nonpartisan think tank based in Berkeley. BACVR’s web site is
www.votingresearch.org.

Link:
http://votingresearch.org/USAstudyoped.doc


America’s Most Liberal Cities

Rank City State
4 District of Columbia
14 Baltimore Maryland
19 Birmingham Alabama
26 New Orleans Louisiana
31 Atlanta Georgia
32 Dallas Texas
39 Memphis Tennessee
46 Jackson Mississippi
50 Richmond Virginia
61 Durham North Carolina
63 Alexandria Virginia
65 Tallahassee Florida
69 Savannah Georgia
72 Greensboro North Carolina
73 Hollywood Florida
80 Norfolk Virginia
82 Columbia South Carolina
86 Fort Lauderdale Florida
87 Portsmouth Virginia
88 Raleigh North Carolina
89 Pembroke Pines Florida
93 Austin Texas
94 Virginia Beach Virginia
98 Athens Georgia
100 Hampton Virginia
101 Brownsville Texas
102 Little Rock Arkansas
104 Orlando Florida
105 St Petersburg Florida
108 Tampa Florida
110 Augusta Georgia
111 Beaumont Texas
115 Laredo Texas
116 El Paso Texas
118 Coral Springs Florida
120 Miami Florida
121 Nashville-Davidson Tennessee
125 Charlotte North Carolina
128 Fayetteville North Carolina
138 Huntsville Alabama
139 Newport News Virginia
142 Knoxville Tennessee
144 Winston-Salem North Carolina
147 Columbus Georgia
148 Grand Prairie Texas
149 Chattanooga Tennessee
151 Louisville Kentucky
154 Montgomery Alabama
156 Shreveport Louisiana
163 Fort Worth Texas
167 Mobile Alabama
170 Lexington-Fayette Kentucky
173 McAllen Texas
175 San Antonio Texas
177 Houston Texas
181 Baton Rouge Louisiana
182 Irving Texas
186 Mesquite Texas
195 Chesapeake Virginia
196 Pasadena Texas
197 Waco Texas
198 Jacksonville Florida
201 Clarksville Tennessee
202 Carrollton Texas
203 Corpus Christi Texas
209 Garland Texas
217 Clearwater Florida
222 Cape Coral Florida
223 Arlington Texas
229 Lafayette Louisiana
233 Plano Texas
235 Abilene Texas
236 Lubbock Texas

http://votingresearch.org/USAliberalcities.doc
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