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Old August 14th, 2005, 11:59 PM   #41
ExYankee
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[QUOTE=Carolina Blue]Here’s the full article for anyone too lazy to visit the link and the complete list of Southern cities. And to think, you dogged me out about my white flight comment when that’s exactly the conclusion made by this study that YOU posted.

Being Liberal Now Means Being African American

By Phil Reiff and Jason Alderman

If American liberals had four legs and fur, they would have been put on the Endangered Species List following last year’s Presidential election. Defining who is liberal has become a national sport among politicians, as Democrats frantically run from the moniker, while Republicans hurl the invective blindly at everyone on the other side of the aisle.

New research done by the Bay Area Center for Voting Research (BACVR) reveals who the real liberals in American are and the answer is not the tree-hugging, ponytail wearing ex-hippies you might expect. Instead, the new face of American liberalism is of a decidedly different hue. The nation’s remaining liberals are overwhelming African Americans.

The BACVR study that ranks the political ideology of every major city in the country shows that cities with large black populations dominate the list of liberal communities. The research finds that Detroit is the most liberal city in the United States and has one of the highest concentrations of African American residents of any major city. Over 81% of the population in Detroit is African American, compared to the national average of 12.3%. In fact, the average percentage of African American residents in the 25 most liberal cities in the country is 40.3%, more than three times the national rate.

The list of America’s most liberal cities reads like a who’s who of prominent African American communities. Gary, Washington D.C., Newark, Flint, Cleveland, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Birmingham have long had prominent black populations. While most black voters have consistently supported Democrats since the 1960s, it is the white liberals that have slowly withered away over the decades, leaving African Americans as the sole standard bearers for the left.

Despite being the core of America’s liberal base, a major split exists between who the nation’s liberals are and who leads them politically. White politicians still control the levers of power within the Democratic Party, and black faces are rare around the decision making tables of America’s liberal advocacy groups.

While there are some noteworthy pockets of liberals who are not African American, these places end up being the exceptions. College towns like Berkeley and Cambridge have modest black populations, but remain bastions of upper middle-class, white, intellectual liberalism. These liberal communities, however, are more reminiscent of penguins clustering together around a shrinking iceberg, than of a vibrant growing political movement.

Further reinforcing this racial and ideological divide is BACVR research which shows that the most conservative city in America is the ultra white community of Provo, Utah, where less than 1% of the population is black.

Political pundits have noted the highly polarized nature of the American electorate, postulating that religion, age, education, wealth, and even the love of car racing are at the heart of the schism between liberals and conservatives. While these experts have identified some of the symptoms of our national rift, they have missed the root cause.

BACVR’s research gives us the real answer, disheartening as it may be. The great political divide in America today is not red vs. blue, north vs. south, costal vs. interior, or even rich vs. poor – it is now clearly black vs. white.

-----------------------------
Phil Reiff and Jason Alderman are directors at the Bay Area Center for Voting Research, a nonpartisan think tank based in Berkeley. BACVR’s web site is
www.votingresearch.org.

...and these are all cities with more than 100K?

Does this also mean that 100% of blacks vote Democrat?
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Old August 15th, 2005, 12:01 AM   #42
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[QUOTE=Carolina Blue]Here’s the full article for anyone too lazy to visit the link and the complete list of Southern cities. And to think, you dogged me out about my white flight comment when that’s exactly the conclusion made by this study that YOU posted.

BACVR’s research gives us the real answer, disheartening as it may be. The great political divide in America today is not red vs. blue, north vs. south, costal vs. interior, or even rich vs. poor – it is now clearly black vs. white.

-----------------------------
Phil Reiff and Jason Alderman are directors at the Bay Area Center for Voting Research, a nonpartisan think tank based in Berkeley. BACVR’s web site is
www.votingresearch.org.

...and these are all cities with more than 100K?

Does this study also suggest that 100% of blacks vote Democrat? That a majority of blacks are "liberal", "non-evangelical"?

The one "vs." they left out was "urban v. suburban v. rural"...
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Old August 15th, 2005, 01:08 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExYankee
Charlotte does not "coddle" "evangelical empires". Of the two listed, only one, "Billy Graham Ministries" is located in the city. Jim and Tammy were based in South Carolina. BTW, what's the difference between being home to Billy Graham vs. the homes of Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Methodists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, Mormons, Roman Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc...?
There's nothing wrong with being the home of Billy Graham. I think he's a very true-to-the-word Christian himself. Charlotte should be grateful that it's not Lynchburg, Virginia.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 01:13 AM   #44
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And just to provide some defense for SC, York County in particular - the Jim Bakker ministries were originally headquartered in Charlotte through most of the 70's (they had a kick ass sock puppet show) & moved to just inside the state line for their Jesus theme park.

But they brought in a bunch of money - especially to York Co Co/op Power with the Bakker's air conditioned dog house.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 03:20 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPKneworleans
There's nothing wrong with being the home of Billy Graham. I think he's a very true-to-the-word Christian himself. Charlotte should be grateful that it's not Lynchburg, Virginia.
Thank god for that!
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Old August 15th, 2005, 04:32 AM   #46
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[QUOTE=Carolina Blue]Here’s the full article for anyone too lazy to visit the link and the complete list of Southern cities. And to think, you dogged me out about my white flight comment when that’s exactly the conclusion made by this study that YOU posted.

Most people would read a study before they debate it. At least that seems logical to me. Considering I posted the link w/ the thread, I assumed you understood what you were debating.

Most cities on the list are deemed liberal because of a ^ % AA and AA tend to be more liberal than their southern counterparts (pretty darn straight forward to me). I never denied the exodus of conservative whites (White Flight).

And rest assured - YOU have not been dogged.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 08:28 AM   #47
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I have to wonder about any survey that claims Jackson, Ms is the 6th most liberal city in the South. I have never heard liberal and Mississippi in the same sentence.

In reality, Durham is probably the most liberal city in the South with these cities joining it in the top ten in no particular order: New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami, Columbia, Gainesville, Athens, Alexandria, Ft. Lauderdale and Key West.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 02:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
okay..well
So I can conclude from your past statements that Birmingham is 1) not progressive and 2) very conservative (or not liberal). The reason for #1 and #2 is that all the whites have moved away and what is left is the 70% African American populace that runs the affairs of Birmingham - city. That's a rude awakening. Since I'm the last caucasion left in Birmingham, I will be certain to turn the lights out before I move to Hoover.
I did visit the link first and read the two lists. However I missed the link at the very bottom with their summary. However, when reading your "contrary" post above, I find you are either quite naive are very clueless about the city you live in. Continue to spin it as you may.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 05:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue
I did visit the link first and read the two lists. However I missed the link at the very bottom with their summary. However, when reading your "contrary" post above, I find you are either quite naive are very clueless about the city you live in. Continue to spin it as you may.
After thinking about it, I really feel like an idiot for posting this thread. I've never fully realized how pitiful this place is.

Last edited by Vulcan; August 16th, 2005 at 04:19 PM.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 06:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
I've been to Durham. I've been to Charlotte and neither of those cities have anything on the scale/ size of Birmingham's liberal Southside, Forest Park, Crestwood region.
^You see; this is what I’m talking about. And I don’t think you “blundered” when you said this. Your comment above suggests that Birmingham’s ranking has much to do with some fictitious large-scale bohemian enclave in its city center. You and I both know that’s not the case. The city’s ranking has all to do with the thousands who live in the West End and very little to do with the 50 or so people who live in Southside. I suppose Birmingham is one of those “exceptions” they reference, along with the likes of Berkeley and Cambridge. At any rate, your new found hypersensitivity is killing me. I'm done.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 07:25 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamatt
I have to wonder about any survey that claims Jackson, Ms is the 6th most liberal city in the South. I have never heard liberal and Mississippi in the same sentence.

In reality, Durham is probably the most liberal city in the South with these cities joining it in the top ten in no particular order: New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami, Columbia, Gainesville, Athens, Alexandria, Ft. Lauderdale and Key West.
That seems like a good list. In MY own experience/observation on a visit to Gainesville 2 years ago, I didn't come away thinking it was particularly liberal/progressive place, especially considering it is a large college town. I would put Durham/Chapel Hill on the list, but (again, based on my own experience) it doesn't stand out above the pack necessarily.

Asheville (at least the city core) deserves to be on such a list.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 08:41 PM   #52
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you're all forgetting: Charlotte is perfect. utopia. even if they tore down a mostly african-american neighborhood in the process.

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Old August 15th, 2005, 09:47 PM   #53
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Buckley - Chapel Hill & Asheville were not on the posted list b/c they are under 100k. Is Gainesville FL over 100k?

What I would like to see as a criteria for 'liberal', would be based on issues 'conservatives' would turn their noses to:

affirmitive action
pro-environmental conservation
gay rights
pro-economic justice

Otherwise, issues such as arts funding, parkspace, & transit development may be more supported by liberals than conservatives, but I would consider those as 'civic' minded initiatives - not per any political affiliation. So - though I consider Charlotte a progressive city in that regard, I'm not positive the city supports the mentioned liberal issues as strongly (again, not always a bad thing).

Last edited by TheBrad; August 15th, 2005 at 09:53 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:35 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrad
Buckley - Chapel Hill & Asheville were not on the posted list b/c they are under 100k. Is Gainesville FL over 100k?

What I would like to see as a criteria for 'liberal', would be based on issues 'conservatives' would turn their noses to:

affirmitive action
pro-environmental conservation
gay rights
pro-economic justice

Otherwise, issues such as arts funding, parkspace, & transit development may be more supported by liberals than conservatives, but I would consider those as 'civic' minded initiatives - not per any political affiliation. So - though I consider Charlotte a progressive city in that regard, I'm not positive the city supports the mentioned liberal issues as strongly (again, not always a bad thing).
Actually, I was responding to Waccamatt's Southern liberal cities list rather than the list that has generated so much controversy. FWIW, I think Gainesville is somewhere in the low 100's.

I think you make an interesting point about 'civic mindedness' vs liberalism. For instance, I could easily see a places like Alpharetta, GA or Hoover, AL building an arts center of some sort or soccer fields, yet I doubt these are communities that would embrace the 4 liberal qualities you suggested. This all leads back to the original controversy: how does one quantify liberalism or progressivisim?
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Old August 16th, 2005, 02:05 PM   #55
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I'm not going to step into the silly Bham/Clt feud, because it's only marginally less annoying than an Atl/Clt feud. So I'm just going to clean up a few misstatements and leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
It's the proud home for several evangelical empires. Consider all the televison evangelist from Charlotte - the Bakers and Tammy faye, the Graham ministries (huge evangelical empire).
This is pretty typical of the kind of argument you usually see against Charlotte. Find something that happened a quarter-century ago and pretend it's happening today. Here's breaking news: Jim Bakker was convicted in a Charlotte court and sent to a Charlotte jail. He has no significant influence in the city any more. Billy Graham... well, I'm not really sure how you see him as a negative. Considering he'd be on the sainthood short-list if he were in a different denomination, I'd say he's a huge plus for this community.


Quote:
The city's main corridor is is proudly the Billy Graham freeway as well as any other street they can possibly name after him. Atlanta has several "Peachtree Streets" Charlotte has "Billy Graham".
This is news to me. I am aware of only two streets named "Graham" in Charlotte: one uptown, and a segment of 277 that was named after him. We have an abundance of Sharon, Queens, and Park roads, but not Grahams.

[/QUOTE]The fact that Mecklenburg County voted for him is not a revelation. The fact that a presidentail candidate had only a marginal home victory is a reflection of just how conservative the Charlotte region is.[/QUOTE]

Kerry/Edwards lost the state of NC in 2004, just like Gore lost Tennessee in 2005. I'd say that there's not much home-field advantage for Democrats in the South right now. Nevertheless, Charlotte managed to vote for them.

Quote:
I also question whether or not Charlotte has had white flight. Perhaps the city has just annexed white areas.
Charlotte has had some white flight, but not all that much. For the most part, the inner city remains relatively mixed, except in particular neighborhoods. The outer suburbs and extremely affluent areas like Myers Park are the only places you really don't see any racial mixture.

Quote:
I've been to Charlotte and neither of those cities have anything on the scale/ size of Birmingham's liberal Southside, Forest Park, Crestwood region.
When was the last time you were in Charlotte? (I get tired of asking this in every thread)

A couple of other points:

- It's not necessarily fair to judge Charlotte on the basis of voting records or other statistics, considering the number of transplants here. How many people who voted here in 2004 weren't even living here in the previous election? How many of them won't be around for 2008? It's hard to say (I don't know of any good study), but it surely affects the way we perceive these things.

- Speaking of which, consider the massive (and growing) Latino population in the Charlotte area. Socially conservative, but very liberal on a lot of issues. You can't break them apart by party, which makes studies like this one much more complicated.

- Blacks in Charlotte are frequently quite well-to-do and often vote Republican. I can't recall the study in particular, but somewhere I read that Charlotte was one of the nation's best cities to be a young black professional. That skews black-white methods of determining liberalism.

- Despite what one might think, there are some ways in which the transplant population has actually made Charlotte more conservative. A somewhat provocative Observer editorial recently pointed out that it is not locals who are pushing for schoolbus integration to stop, or buying up houses in economically-segregated Ballantyne, or pulling public money away from needy areas to spend on new development. Not to say that I fully agree with that analysis, but it's worth thinking about. It's quite possible that the demographic changes have actually pushed racial and economic issues closer to the burner than one might expect.

- Bottom line: neither Charlotte nor Birmingham would be fairly characterized as a "liberal city", and forumers from the northeast or west coast are probably laughing their asses off at this argument.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 05:02 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justadude
I'm not going to step into the silly Bham/Clt feud, because it's only marginally less annoying than an Atl/Clt feud. So I'm just going to clean up a few misstatements and leave it at that.



This is pretty typical of the kind of argument you usually see against Charlotte. Find something that happened a quarter-century ago and pretend it's happening today. Here's breaking news: Jim Bakker was convicted in a Charlotte court and sent to a Charlotte jail. He has no significant influence in the city any more. Billy Graham... well, I'm not really sure how you see him as a negative. Considering he'd be on the sainthood short-list if he were in a different denomination, I'd say he's a huge plus for this community.




This is news to me. I am aware of only two streets named "Graham" in Charlotte: one uptown, and a segment of 277 that was named after him. We have an abundance of Sharon, Queens, and Park roads, but not Grahams.
The fact that Mecklenburg County voted for him is not a revelation. The fact that a presidentail candidate had only a marginal home victory is a reflection of just how conservative the Charlotte region is.[/QUOTE]

Kerry/Edwards lost the state of NC in 2004, just like Gore lost Tennessee in 2005. I'd say that there's not much home-field advantage for Democrats in the South right now. Nevertheless, Charlotte managed to vote for them.



Charlotte has had some white flight, but not all that much. For the most part, the inner city remains relatively mixed, except in particular neighborhoods. The outer suburbs and extremely affluent areas like Myers Park are the only places you really don't see any racial mixture.



When was the last time you were in Charlotte? (I get tired of asking this in every thread)

A couple of other points:

- It's not necessarily fair to judge Charlotte on the basis of voting records or other statistics, considering the number of transplants here. How many people who voted here in 2004 weren't even living here in the previous election? How many of them won't be around for 2008? It's hard to say (I don't know of any good study), but it surely affects the way we perceive these things.

- Speaking of which, consider the massive (and growing) Latino population in the Charlotte area. Socially conservative, but very liberal on a lot of issues. You can't break them apart by party, which makes studies like this one much more complicated.

- Blacks in Charlotte are frequently quite well-to-do and often vote Republican. I can't recall the study in particular, but somewhere I read that Charlotte was one of the nation's best cities to be a young black professional. That skews black-white methods of determining liberalism.

- Despite what one might think, there are some ways in which the transplant population has actually made Charlotte more conservative. A somewhat provocative Observer editorial recently pointed out that it is not locals who are pushing for schoolbus integration to stop, or buying up houses in economically-segregated Ballantyne, or pulling public money away from needy areas to spend on new development. Not to say that I fully agree with that analysis, but it's worth thinking about. It's quite possible that the demographic changes have actually pushed racial and economic issues closer to the burner than one might expect.

- Bottom line: neither Charlotte nor Birmingham would be fairly characterized as a "liberal city", and forumers from the northeast or west coast are probably laughing their asses off at this argument.[/QUOTE]

Last edited by Vulcan; August 16th, 2005 at 05:12 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 05:24 PM   #57
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^Hey, this is great information. I honestly did not know how much Charlotte has evolved. The last time I was in Charlotte was 2003. There was a lot of new urban construction at that time and redevelopment of Charlotte's massive historical district; but apparently there has been a huge bohemian expansion since then. Charlotte’s major downtown universities, UNC Charlotte and Davidson, are helping to fuel the expansion. Next time this study is conducted (with more current information); Charlotte will probably have its rightful position at the top of the ranking. If not, that will be the concrete evidence for everyone that this study is bull shit. Charlotte is already the most progressive city in the South and is on its way to becoming the most liberal city in the south. This study was right on target for a select few cities, but I'm certain it completely missed the boat with Charlotte. As for old Birmingham - maybe having one of the nation's top research universities located on the Southside and continued redevelopment of our historical district(s) will give us some hope.

Last edited by Vulcan; August 16th, 2005 at 05:37 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 06:22 PM   #58
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Ooookay then…So let’s revisit “The Ham”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
I think you are confusing Jefferson County and the City of Birmingham. They are two very distinct political entities...Most precincts in Birmingham city passed Amemnment One.
I’d like some more insight into your statement above. Link 2 below breakdowns election results in Alabama in various ways. Occasionally it gives a precinct-by-precinct breakdown. In Link 3, I’ve pulled out Jefferson County’s precinct votes for Amendment 1. Please enlighten me, which precincts represent the Southside? How about inner city Birmingham?

Link 1:
Alabama special constitutional amendment election September 9, 2003
http://www.sos.state.al.us/election/2003/scae/index.cfm

Link 2:
Elections Division Data Downloads
http://www.sos.state.al.us/downloads...ion&types=Data

Link 3:
2003 Special Constitutional Amendment Election - Precinct Level Results
http://www.sos.state.al.us/downloads...cinctlevel.xls
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Old August 16th, 2005, 06:52 PM   #59
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Amendment One: Southside Birmingham vicinity. This apparently goes into the older suburban areas, but Southside of Bham is shown.
ADDRESS VOTING_FAC YES NO PCENT_YES PCENT_NO DIFF
4000 8 court south Avondale Elementary School 692 380 0.6 0.4 0.3
2612 lane park Bham Botanic Gardens 239 166 0.6 0.4 0.2
716 richard arrington jr Courthouse Lobby 92 61 0.6 0.4 0.2
3114 clairmont avenue Fire Sataion # 22 866 583 0.6 0.4 0.2
1800 13 avenue south Ramsay High 547 400 0.6 0.4 0.2
3736 montrose road St. Lukes Episcopal 794 529 0.6 0.4 0.2
509 40 street south Avondale Library 477 386 0.6 0.4 0.1
4400 fair oaks drive Cherokee Bend School 682 591 0.5 0.5 0.1
2501 university boulevard Southtown Housing 59 52 0.5 0.5 0.1
3125 spaulding street sw Bryant Chapel Church 205 221 0.5 0.5 0.0
1832 center way south Center St. School 666 678 0.5 0.5 0.0
4915 avenue q Central Park School 266 293 0.5 0.5 0.0
252 oxmoor court E.S. & S. 146 145 0.5 0.5 0.0
6449 1 avenue north Fire Sataion # 12 445 487 0.5 0.5 0.0
3785 locksley drive Fire Station #2 Mountain Broo 979 1010 0.5 0.5 0.0
1101 15 avenue north Fountain Heights Park 232 248 0.5 0.5 0.0
1115 11 street south Glen Iris Elementary School 391 428 0.5 0.5 0.0

Last edited by Vulcan; August 16th, 2005 at 06:58 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 07:10 PM   #60
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^ It's a little hard to read, however the Southside of Birmingham voted for Amendment One. It's ludicrus to argue that any city in the south is liberal, except for the obvious cities - Atlanta, Miami and New Orleans and some small college towns. Quite frankly, the study is a little hard to follow and does not give a clear definition of what is liberal. I just thought is would stimulate some interesting debate (which it did). but it's always amusing how a lot of people from Charlotte expect to be number one in every ranking - if not, the ranking is bull shit. I honestly have no problem with Charlotte. At the same time, I do not think Birmingham is the armpit of the south - as many Charlotte people on this forum would have you believe.
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