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Old August 22nd, 2005, 12:45 AM   #81
Dale
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Ah, but this alledgedly proto-typical city (Travis County) did vote decisively for Bush in 2000. Could you imagine Bush winning, say, Atlanta-Fulton County ? I can't.

And why should my TV episode - and the opinions of my Austinite friends - carry less weight than your opinion ?

Again, I'll happily concede that the city's more liberal than Texas as a whole. And also that it harbors the requisate 'off-beatness' of a large university town. I'm simply suggesting that it may not as liberal as its reputation would suggest.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 01:04 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
Ah, but this alledgedly proto-typical city (Travis County) did vote decisively for Bush in 2000. Could you imagine Bush winning, say, Atlanta-Fulton County ? I can't.

And why should my TV episode - and the opinions of my Austinite friends - carry less weight than your opinion ?

Again, I'll happily concede that the city's more liberal than Texas as a whole. And also that it harbors the requisate 'off-beatness' of a large university town. I'm simply suggesting that it may not as liberal as its reputation would suggest.
Okay, when you actually have something to actually back up your claims, I'll listen. First off, Travis County is not Austin. Austin always votes Democratic. Travis County usually does, and did in 2004. You keep bringing up 2000, in which you say Bush won "big" or "decisively". Highly unlikely it was by a large percentage. Prove me wrong if you can.

Also, I think Bush being from TX played a part in Travis County in 2000. A candidate from your state can play quite a role. Also, like I said voting Democratic doesn't mean you're really that liberal.

Also, I care not if you supposedly have friends in Austin or a t.v. show supposedly says Austin isn't liberal. Also, if you are naive to think that Austin's liberal persona is just that of the requisate of a large university town, you have no credibility. First off, you're speaking of a city of 700,000. The "off-beatness" extends far beyond the university which makes up a fraction of the city's area or population.

If it makes you feel good to downplay Austin's politics, then feel free. I have been to many, many cities and towns both large and small across this country. Austin is definitely more liberal than just about anywhere else. Not only do the numbers tell the story, you can see and feel it when you come.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 01:19 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Nic
Okay, when you actually have something to actually back up your claims, I'll listen. First off, Travis County is not Austin. Austin always votes Democratic. Travis County usually does, and did in 2004. You keep bringing up 2000, in which you say Bush won "big" or "decisively". Highly unlikely it was by a large percentage. Prove me wrong if you can.

Also, I think Bush being from TX played a part in Travis County in 2000. A candidate from your state can play quite a role. Also, like I said voting Democratic doesn't mean you're really that liberal.

Also, I care not if you supposedly have friends in Austin or a t.v. show supposedly says Austin isn't liberal. Also, if you are naive to think that Austin's liberal persona is just that of the requisate of a large university town, you have no credibility. First off, you're speaking of a city of 700,000. The "off-beatness" extends far beyond the university which makes up a fraction of the city's area or population.

If it makes you feel good to downplay Austin's politics, then feel free. I have been to many, many cities and towns both large and small across this country. Austin is definitely more liberal than just about anywhere else. Not only do the numbers tell the story, you can see and feel it when you come.
What 'numbers tell the story' ? The cited study's numbers certainly don't tell the story. Where are these 'numbers' which incontravertably demonstrate that Austin's 'definately more liberal than just about anywhere else' ?

Sounds to me that someone's just worried that his city's reputation is slipping a bit.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 04:54 AM   #84
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You are being difficult. Let's see, we're talking about the city of Austin, which votes democratic every election. You keep referring to Travis County, which I might add votes Democratic in virtually election as well, but because of poor voter turnout, a fluke occurred and Bush actually won Travis County in 2000. I guess it doesn't matter that of course Austin, but Travis County too went for Kerry in 2004. And of course, 1996, 1992, 1988 and probably as far back as you want to go, the story is the same. Whatever, be stubborn if you want.

As far as me worrying about Austin "slipping", I don't know what to say. First of all, although I consider myself both fiscally and socially liberal, Austin can many times be TOO liberal for my tastes. So, it actually wouldn't break my heart if it did become a tad more conservative. It's just you are misinformed if you think most places are anywhere near as liberal as Austin, regardless if it's gotten a little less liberal. Like I said, you would just have to experience it first hand. As far as your friends, I don't know what they have told you, so I really can't comment. As far as your t.v. series, I think that's just funny.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 05:07 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic
You are being difficult. Let's see, we're talking about the city of Austin, which votes democratic every election. You keep referring to Travis County, which I might add votes Democratic in virtually election as well, but because of poor voter turnout, a fluke occurred and Bush actually won Travis County in 2000. I guess it doesn't matter that of course Austin, but Travis County too went for Kerry in 2004. And of course, 1996, 1992, 1988 and probably as far back as you want to go, the story is the same. Whatever, be stubborn if you want.

As far as me worrying about Austin "slipping", I don't know what to say. First of all, although I consider myself both fiscally and socially liberal, Austin can many times be TOO liberal for my tastes. So, it actually wouldn't break my heart if it did become a tad more conservative. It's just you are misinformed if you think most places are anywhere near as liberal as Austin, regardless if it's gotten a little less liberal. Like I said, you would just have to experience it first hand. As far as your friends, I don't know what they have told you, so I really can't comment. As far as your t.v. series, I think that's just funny.
*I'm* being difficult ? Is this what you typically say to people who don't fall in line with your arguments ? Mine was the rather modest contention that Austin's reputation as a liberal city is a 'tad overblown'. Those were my exact words.

Evidence I posited is Austin-Travis going decisively for Bush in 2000. Of course I understand Austin proper is heavily Democrat, as are the vast majority of U.S. cities.

Further, I cited an episode of City confidential, on A & E, which underscored some discontent as to the increasing conservatism. You called this a 'so-called TV program'.

Then, I referenced friends from Austin who contend that Austin's reputation for liberalism are somewhat exaggerated. You called these 'so-called friends' (I think a pattern is emerging here).

In any case, you seem to think the onus rests with me to make a compelling argument, while you rely on justification-by-mere-assertion. Oh, now you did mention the transgender city councilmember. A powerful counter-argument indeed.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 06:01 AM   #86
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Yes, you're being difficult. You still are making an extremely weak point. I've explained why, and you still don't back up your claims. then you attack my examples of why Austin is liberal. I don't need to throw numbers out, because everyone knows how Austin votes year in and year out. So, I mention things that don't show up in numbers, and all you can do is talk sh*t. I am beginning to think you just enjoy being a jerk; so I think it would be best to stop wasting my time with you, as I'm sure that your intention was to indeed be annoying. Have a nice life in Disneyville.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 06:10 AM   #87
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So, summarizing: I say Austin's reputation for being liberal is slightly exaggerated. Your argument is that Austin's 'more liberal than just about any other city.' Oh, and that I'm a jerk.

And that's Disneycity to you, sport model.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 05:15 PM   #88
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The truth about B-ham

Born & raised in Birmingham (but now a proud Californian thank goodness), I'd like to shed some light on the Birmingham-as-a-liberal-city thing.

First off, the motherlode of moneyed interests in the B-ham area are old money and DO NOT LIVE in the city limits of B-ham unless they happen to live high on the mountain in Forest Park/ Highland which might as well be Upper Mountain Brook. (MB being the pinnacle of exclusivity and old money... EVERY soul who has a job in the metropoliton area is employed one way or another by a Mountain Brookie. Or at least works on the land owned by a Brookie.)

These aforementioned aristocrats as well as even the middle classes never broach the City Limits unless:

a. there's a football game at Legion Field

b. they're going to work as a lawyer, banker, or doctor

c. they are attending a festival such as City Stages, in which case they park in a secure deck, scurry to the event, enjoy the festivities, and vamoose immediately afterwards

Over the years I have heard the following comments by wealthy B-ham magnates regarding the City of Birmingham, and I quote:

"The blacks have taken over now."

"The substandards can have it."

"Who cares about Birmingham? Ain't nothin' but mow mows."

"Stay away from Birmingham."

"There's nothing for you in Birmingham."

But they don't say these things in intentional racist tones; rather, it's a chilling statement of their detachment from all things not of their immediate concern.

You get the picture. So, B-ham is liberal, then, in this sense: it is the antithesis of the Republican dyed-in-the-wool establishment that has long since fled its limits. What is left of Birmingham are Southern bohemians, the alternative crowd, and the blacks that haven't yet relocated. The city government rules with an Iron Hand, drawing their strength from the undereducated black citizenry and the overall malaise of the others. Their policies are indeed liberal/ socialist are are designed to subjugate the masses and enrich the ruling black mafia of Birmingham. And no one from the "other side of the tracks" will check this power because they have no interests in anything down there (they can always move their law offices, hospitals, and banks should the need arise-- and they have in some cases).

The scary prognosis for a bona fide Birmingham renaissance: not good. Its Southern counterparts such as New Orleans, Memphis, and Atlanta each have a chance to progress and grow due to a greater INCORPORATION of the (largely white) moneyed interests into the cities. Also, NOLA, Mempho and the ATL have national/ internnational draws such as pro sports, world-class entertainment, excellent tourist infrastructures, and a vibrant soul that embraces their heritage. The 'Ham has none of that and never will because the money and the talent always leaves the city. (Where there is no money, there is no talent for long.) Any proud heritage to be cherished in downtown is long since abandoned.

I could bloviate further upon the ills of the once-great Magic City. But unfortunately the Tragic City doesn't deserve much more attention than this.

Last edited by danoliafoya; August 25th, 2005 at 05:23 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 11:01 PM   #89
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"In this study, I wouldn't define liberal as progressive, like many people would. I think they are looking at pure voting records, in which case, NY does indeed have a Republican mayor, but I think we all know which city is more "progressively liberal". Republicans in New York would be Democrats in Bham... not really, but you get my point."

No offense, but why is everyone convinced that "liberals" have the market cornered on "progressiveness"? I've never understood this argument. It's pretty offensive to me as I consider myself a progressive moderate Republican/Conservative. Personally speaking, I find many of the popular beliefs of both hard core Republicans and hard core Liberals to be equally "backwards". I can find fault with both sides. As annoying as the overly conservative 'any tax is too much....leave me alone' hard core conservatives can be, the 'know it all, everyone who dares disagree with me is a stupid insensitive racist redneck or rube" attitude of "liberals" is equally annoying. It seems like people on here are tripping over themselves begging to be considered the most liberal as if that is some great badge of honor. What is so inherently good about being a liberal and so evil about being conservative? I by no means agree with all the conservative ideals, but the way liberals constantly sneer at and bash those they consider conservative pisses me off even more.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 11:15 PM   #90
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I agree and disagree dano. I'm with you on some of the over the mountain attitude especially prevalent in Mt. Brook. The attitude that downtown is somehow unimportant and is in competition with Mt. Brook is so frustrating to me as someone who wants to see both downtown and the suburbs flourish. I can't understand why many over the mountain residents don't care whether or not downtown Bham withers and dies. However, the lack of cooperation isn't 100% the fault of over the mountainers. B'ham's leadership hasn't exactly tried to reach out either. They have held past wrongs/racism over the heads of influential over the mountain residents and turned many people off. The bottom line is that both sides of the mountain have let petty grudges hold back much needed cooperation. Even worse is the amazingly negative attitude locals have about any new project or idea in the city itself. The distrust of politicians in the city and state as a whole in Alabama is amazing.
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Old August 25th, 2005, 11:43 PM   #91
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With respect, I don't know that 'progressive' is something that one should aspire to be. Or don't you know that progressive is another name for an idea ... which was tried thirty years ago ... and which failed ?
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Old August 26th, 2005, 12:30 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
.

Again, I'll happily concede that the city's more liberal than Texas as a whole. .
Yes it is. But let's not make the mistake that the other Texas cities(with the exception of probably Ft. Worth) are conservative. In fact they are moderate slightly leaning towards liberal. Now I don't know about San Antonio. But Austin is considerably the majority of Travis county unlike Dallas and Houston and it went Kerry and it's been going democratic more times than not. Now if both cities were the majority in there own respective counties, both would have went blue by far especially Dallas.

If anybody has been to Austin you'd know that Austin is very much so liberal. There are pockets of conservatism but you will see that there aren't many conservative areas in the city.
BTW Travis County in 2000.
Bush 46%
Gore 41%
Not really by a huge margin as you thought it was.
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Old August 26th, 2005, 01:33 AM   #93
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Particularly when considering Travis County had one of the highest voter percentages in the U.S.for Nader in 2000. I know over 5% of the total vote was for Nader; and I might add that Nader was the Green Party candidate, which is more liberal than the Democratic Party.
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Old August 26th, 2005, 02:01 AM   #94
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Nader got 10% of Travis County in 2000. If Nader was not on the ballot. Most of that 10% would have went to Gore more than likely.
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Old August 26th, 2005, 02:15 AM   #95
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Thanks for the numbers. I was looking for them the other day, and couldn't find them on the net.

Also, I would be surprised if even 1% of those Nader votes would have gone to Bush.
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Old August 26th, 2005, 02:22 AM   #96
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dano, you forgot to list when we have to drive to the B'ham airport to get in our private jets when we travel anywhere! Just kidding (mostly). I agree with you and Fear of Heights that there is a rift between us Brookies and the city of B'ham and that Birmingham would see a lot of progress if the city leadership would stop being inept and get the Mtn. Brook power base on board with it, but I disagree with how you've insinuated (sp?) that we don't like downtown except for work, football, or festivals. 4 years ago, OK, but not as much now. While the old farts will never change, most of my friends (I'm a young guy) here and I like to go downtown to the great new restaurants, galleries, etc. that have opened in the last few years. AND we like Lakeview on the weekends (except for Club Chaos and the crowd it attracts). Until the past few years 5 points was cool but there's too much trash there now (sleazy people at the clubs, muggings in the alleys for which 5 Points businesses have asked the police to try and crack down on). And now the loft district has some neat bars like the U that my friends and I like. Point is, B'ham has its attractions year-round for the younger, upwardly-mobile Mountain Brook crowd.

Also, I hope people won't get the impression that all of us Brookies are elitist jerks. Sure I know people here who are, but there are also many nice, grounded people who despite their success remain decent and humble. I hope B'ham and Mtn. Brook can start cooperating some time soon and get Birmingham where it needs to be.
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Old August 27th, 2005, 12:16 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBoi
Yes it is. But let's not make the mistake that the other Texas cities(with the exception of probably Ft. Worth) are conservative. In fact they are moderate slightly leaning towards liberal. Now I don't know about San Antonio. But Austin is considerably the majority of Travis county unlike Dallas and Houston and it went Kerry and it's been going democratic more times than not. Now if both cities were the majority in there own respective counties, both would have went blue by far especially Dallas.

If anybody has been to Austin you'd know that Austin is very much so liberal. There are pockets of conservatism but you will see that there aren't many conservative areas in the city.
BTW Travis County in 2000.
Bush 46%
Gore 41%
Not really by a huge margin as you thought it was.
To repeat, mine was the modest claim that Austin is not quite as liberal as its reputation on this forum (and among liberals).
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Old August 27th, 2005, 12:27 AM   #98
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And whereas Travis County did go Bush in 2000, can anyone imagine San Francisco County, Contra Costa County, Cook County, Los Angeles County, Marin County, or any number of urban counties *ever* going Republican ?

That's all I'm saying.
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Old August 27th, 2005, 04:28 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
To repeat, mine was the modest claim that Austin is not quite as liberal as its reputation on this forum (and among liberals).
No, actually you claimed that Bush won "big" or "decisively". Of course you made these claims with no evidence, and have since been proven wrong. Besides, why can you not understand the difference between a city, and a county? Also, why the focus on 2000, as with only 51% voter turnout, and the Nader situation, has shown why 2000 was a fluke for Travis County. Again, if it somehow makes you feel better to think Austin isn't as liberal as claimed, then continue with your opinion. I just can't understand the obsession you have with attempting to prove something that can not be proven.
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Old August 27th, 2005, 04:45 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic
No, actually you claimed that Bush won "big" or "decisively". Of course you made these claims with no evidence, and have since been proven wrong. Besides, why can you not understand the difference between a city, and a county? Also, why the focus on 2000, as with only 51% voter turnout, and the Nader situation, has shown why 2000 was a fluke for Travis County. Again, if it somehow makes you feel better to think Austin isn't as liberal as claimed, then continue with your opinion. I just can't understand the obsession you have with attempting to prove something that can not be proven.
I'm pretty sure that you blathered, just a while back, that you were through arguing with me, being that I was stupid, or words to that effect.

And you're quite right, how could my argument have expectied to fare against your incisive marshalling of facts, such as the fact that Austin has a 'transgender' council(person ?), and of course your coup de grace, 'Austin is more liberal than almost any other city !'

And do you suppose that I'm 'obsessed', or that you're a bit anxious that your Austin might not be quite the Berkeley in the Brushweeds that no doubt gives you succor ?

Sheesh ! Turns out that even Kinky Friedman's pro-war !
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