search the site
 daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Projects and Construction > Liverpool Metro Area

Liverpool Metro Area 'Scouse Scrapers for both sides of the Mersey



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 15th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #7941
ElectroSoldier
Registered User
 
ElectroSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,851
Likes (Received): 275

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centurio View Post
Where it was supposed to have gone in the first place - the airport, and Warrington.
The airport wasnt a thing back then, it wasnt until it changed to its current site that it took off business wise.
Warrington wasnt a planned destination either.

It really is impossible for you to talk about it isnt it Centurio

You see I remember all the talk about what might happen, what could happen and what is going to happen. Speke airport and Warrington werent mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flypie125 View Post
Originally there where no plans for the airport, if there had been they would have planned to go via http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/garston_dock/ keeping that link in place would have made sense and provided connections to Widnes south from central.
Well yes and no, might well have used Cressington Junction, which was a junction that was in place to the east of Cressington station, the line would have followed the path of Garston Way, the station would have been on the corner of the Freightliner terminal diagonally opposite Asda. But that line was wound up at the same time at the rest of the line in the 70s.

What you have to bear in mind is that back then the trains were not unlike each other, I mean I remember DMUs serving the CLC route into Liverpool, its only in modern times that things have changed. There was no reason to keep Cressington Jn as there was no destination beyond it, there was no thought of serving Speke airport, Widnes station was served with a rail service from Windes into the city center, does it really matter if that rail service goes into Lime street? it might now to you guys because you have a thing that all stations in Liverpool should be served by Merseyrail, back then it didnt matter as long as it was served.
ElectroSoldier no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 15th, 2017, 02:13 PM   #7942
flypie125
Registered User
 
flypie125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 431
Likes (Received): 213

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroSoldier View Post
The airport wasnt a thing back then, it wasnt until it changed to its current site that it took off business wise.
Warrington wasnt a planned destination either.

It really is impossible for you to talk about it isnt it Centurio

You see I remember all the talk about what might happen, what could happen and what is going to happen. Speke airport and Warrington werent mentioned.



Well yes and no, might well have used Cressington Junction, which was a junction that was in place to the east of Cressington station, the line would have followed the path of Garston Way, the station would have been on the corner of the Freightliner terminal diagonally opposite Asda. But that line was wound up at the same time at the rest of the line in the 70s.

What you have to bear in mind is that back then the trains were not unlike each other, I mean I remember DMUs serving the CLC route into Liverpool, its only in modern times that things have changed. There was no reason to keep Cressington Jn as there was no destination beyond it, there was no thought of serving Speke airport, Widnes station was served with a rail service from Windes into the city center, does it really matter if that rail service goes into Lime street? it might now to you guys because you have a thing that all stations in Liverpool should be served by Merseyrail, back then it didnt matter as long as it was served.
If we have a thing it about a coordinated rail sevice, where you can get from one place to another with minimum fuss. Having a train to lime street and then having to cross to either central or Exchange to continue you journey is not good.
You think about trains, I think about systems.
__________________
If I uploaded any of my images better version can be found at WikiCommons
flypie125 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 07:40 PM   #7943
ElectroSoldier
Registered User
 
ElectroSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,851
Likes (Received): 275

Yeah I started to see the kind of thinker you are when you mentioned the plans you had ofputting HS2 GC gauge trains into Wapping tunnel.

I wonder how putting Merseyrail trains onto the main lines will affect their record with regards to punctuality. Before they have always worked well but inside an almost sealed system that has very few outside movements to deal with, once they move outside of it...
ElectroSoldier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #7944
greenbird_crwx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 91
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
I think that the Edge Hill Spur whether it used the Waterloo or Wapping Tunnel could theoretically have a capacity of 30 trains per hour or maybe even more (the Link Line was originally signalled for one train every two minutes and the Loop Line for one every minute and a half). The burrowing junction at Central South prevents conflicting movements.

In practice, flat junctions elsewhere on the network would reduce capacity plus the number of origins and destinations at each end.

If we forget about trains originating on the Wirral, there are currently three destinations on the northern end of the Link Line Tunnel (Southport, Ormskirk and Kirkby) but only one on the southern end (Hunts Cross). So, if the EHS allowed two additional southern services (e.g. St Helens and Liverpool South Parkway) then there would it would balance the services and there would be no need for reversing at Central. That would only be 8 trains per hour on the EHS though.

The ideal service would seem to be as near to a straight line as possible - as with Southport to Hunts Cross but you would need a Wirral connection to do that - (e.g. run West Kirby to St Helens) and going from St Helens to Kirkby via Central Liverpool does sound a bit daft - but then end to end passengers would only be a small proportion of the total and it would be no worse than a circle line.
Yes it was the "raw" capacity of the EHS I was curioua about.
Btw are there any fourth possible terminus on the northern line? The bootle branch?
greenbird_crwx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #7945
flypie125
Registered User
 
flypie125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 431
Likes (Received): 213

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroSoldier View Post
Yeah I started to see the kind of thinker you are when you mentioned the plans you had ofputting HS2 GC gauge trains into Wapping tunnel.

I wonder how putting Merseyrail trains onto the main lines will affect their record with regards to punctuality. Before they have always worked well but inside an almost sealed system that has very few outside movements to deal with, once they move outside of it...
I never had plans to put GC gauge trains in the Wapping tunnel, well not on here anyway. I did mull over the idea of putting a single GC line down it then turning north for staion under Lime Street before heading back up the Victoria Tunnel. In the end, I concluded the best place was Edge Hill with the 2 tunnels being used as links to get people into the city centre via a loop down one, along with the strand and back up the other, with a short spur to near Lime Street Mersey rail station, all as light rail.
__________________
If I uploaded any of my images better version can be found at WikiCommons
flypie125 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 08:40 PM   #7946
flypie125
Registered User
 
flypie125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 431
Likes (Received): 213

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbird_crwx View Post
Yes it was the "raw" capacity of the EHS I was curioua about.
Btw are there any fourth possible terminus on the northern line? The bootle branch?
Wigan or beyond to Bolton or Bury.
__________________
If I uploaded any of my images better version can be found at WikiCommons
flypie125 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 09:54 PM   #7947
Martin S
Registered User
 
Martin S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,061
Likes (Received): 2967

Wigan (via Kirkby) was the intended terminus of the Northern Line branch which was later cut back to Kirkby to save money. Preston has also been mooted as a Merseyrail terminal (but as an extension of the Ormskirk service). Skelmersdale could be a terminal.

I don't think that the two services have to necessarily balance (they don't at the moment) but then you would have to work out how to reverse northbound trains in Central Liverpool.
__________________
Martin S no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 10:52 PM   #7948
ElectroSoldier
Registered User
 
ElectroSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,851
Likes (Received): 275

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbird_crwx View Post
Yes it was the "raw" capacity of the EHS I was curioua about.
Btw are there any fourth possible terminus on the northern line? The bootle branch?
Once you leave Edge hill and head into the Bootle branch you could emerge back onto the Northern line heading south (having left Central travelling south) towards Southport, it wouldnt be possible to go to Kirkby or Ormskirk (unless the North Mersey Branch was reinstated as a passenger line).
Following this route to Southport you would miss out Moorfields, Sandhills and bank hall but gain all the stops from Edge hill to Bootle Jn which is where you would rejoin the Northern line.

That would be a good route... but if you use Wapping tunnel you would need a tunnel or bridge at Edge hill to get from Wapping to the Bootle branch as you would need to cross the Up & Down Main lines east of Edge hill station.
ElectroSoldier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #7949
Hans Groover
Registered User
 
Hans Groover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 574
Likes (Received): 264

Presumably you could improve the balancing by combining the Southport and Ormskirk services into a circular route, via the Burscough Curves?

Ah, yes... *googles*

https://anonw.com/2017/03/26/extra-s...northern-line/
Hans Groover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:33 AM   #7950
greenbird_crwx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 91
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroSoldier View Post
Once you leave Edge hill and head into the Bootle branch you could emerge back onto the Northern line heading south (having left Central travelling south) towards Southport, it wouldnt be possible to go to Kirkby or Ormskirk (unless the North Mersey Branch was reinstated as a passenger line).
Following this route to Southport you would miss out Moorfields, Sandhills and bank hall but gain all the stops from Edge hill to Bootle Jn which is where you would rejoin the Northern line.

That would be a good route... but if you use Wapping tunnel you would need a tunnel or bridge at Edge hill to get from Wapping to the Bootle branch as you would need to cross the Up & Down Main lines east of Edge hill station.


Like a noose? And let some other northern line branch continue down to Hunts cross, you mean?
greenbird_crwx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:51 PM   #7951
ElectroSoldier
Registered User
 
ElectroSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,851
Likes (Received): 275

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenbird_crwx View Post
Like a noose? And let some other northern line branch continue down to Hunts cross, you mean?
Kind of yes.

Once there are more terminal stations in the network and more loops then the journeys wouldnt need to be as fixed as they are now, for instance the first trainof the day from Southport could run all the way to Hunts cross (or Warrington, or even on the short spur to Gateacre if reinstated) then the second could go from Southport to Southport via Central and the Bootle Branch, there would be no terminating stop where it reverses as its in a loop then the 3rd train from Southport could go to Warrington via the Edge hill spur and Wavertree jn through Mossley hill and then back to Southport (or Ormskirk or Kirkby).

Once that is in place and working and you see how it works then you start to look at opening up the North Mersey branch to allow trains to go from Southport to Ormskirk/Kirkby on a circular route via Central and the Bootle branch.

If you talk about it right now there is no point in opening up the North mersey branch, but if you take it in small stages you end up getting all the things you want and each new thing only adds more than you had before.
__________________

mmcd liked this post
ElectroSoldier no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu