Do we need secularity (laïcité) in Morocco?

[AceOfSpades]

Genbank = Tetwani ?!

Welcome back , yo !

[Genbank]

Originally Posted by doukali

So, at least the Islamists are not as dumb as you describe them!

Attaturk's economic reforms were destroyed by the military regimes Turkey had until the Islamists took over.

Better still, the Islamists are actually responsible for this huge improvement in the Turkish economy compared to before.

So dont give all the credit to Attaturk and instead give a lot of it to the Islamists.

Of course they are not dumber than ours, at least they went to Attaturk's secular schools and universities where they learned that State and Faith are two different things.

The economic growth of Turkey didn't start with the islamists in 2002. The reforms started way before when turks decided to open the economy, to fight corruption and to have a strong and free judicial system all of that guaranteed by all the rationality and pragmatism of a Democratic Secular State. In other words, the success of Turkey has nothing to do with Allah or whatsoever but with the same things that did China (even if democracy is still absent), Brazil, South Korea and others...DEMOCRACY, LIBERAL ECONOMY and HUMAN DEVELOPPEMENT! and Morocco is failling in the whole three:

- Democracy: There is none.
- Liberal Economy: For the king holdings and friends.
- Human Developpement: In big cities only (= less than 50% of the Moroccan population)

[CasaMor]

Originally Posted by Hamza.S

la majorite des marocains ont vote oui f la constitution 3la 2 choses houma :
1. L'islam est la religion de l'etat
2.L'arabe est la langue officielle du pays(pas darija comme veulent certains non musulmans).Autre chose ghir kat kdbou 3la rasskoum.

40% de ceux qui ont voté sont analphabètes. Le makhzen a acheté les voix de millions de gens dans les quartiers populaires et les villages. On sait tous très bien comment ça se passe au Maroc.

[doukali]

Originally Posted by Genbank

The 2 pics are just there to illustrate what happened in our schools back then. You can find hundreds of other pictures of the same classes in the 50s by googling it.

You will hardly find photos of veiled young women in the cities back in the 50s, and even if you find it they will have a Moroccan veil, not the middle eastern rag they wear nowdays.


That's bad faith, you brought the subject of jews!



Let'us make one thing clear, I think a women should have the right to wear whatever she wants: Miniskirt, a Moroccan veil, a middle eastern hijab or even a pinguin disguise! But I see the multiplication of hijab veils as a sad evolution of the society toward a more intolerant and conservative model (outside the fact that believing that the earth was created in 6 days and that all humans descend from 2 people is sympthomatic of a terrible lack of scientific knowledge)

Let'us make one thing clear, I think a women should have the right to wear whatever she wants: Miniskirt, a Moroccan veil, a middle eastern hijab or even a pinguin disguise!
You should have stopped there but then you ruined your argument by the nonsense you wrote after

Why do you keep dragging religion back into the debate?

[Genbank]

Originally Posted by doukali

Let'us make one thing clear, I think a women should have the right to wear whatever she wants: Miniskirt, a Moroccan veil, a middle eastern hijab or even a pinguin disguise!
You should have stopped there but then you ruined your argument by the nonsense you wrote after

Why do you keep dragging religion back into the debate?

I can't keep religion out of this, because my country put this religion in the most sacred text we have: The Constitution!!

This is what Erdogan said:


At minute 2:25 he says: "People can't be secular, the State should be secular. People can be for or against religion, or of different religions, it's something natural..."

When I hear this I see the result of the secular schools teachings in Turkey, that teaches student to believers and non-believers, instead of how to apply chariaa and that you should inherit the double because you have a penis, and that homosexuals have to be punished because of what they are.

Schools are very important because they educate the society. Sadly, they are the most insedious institutions in Morocco because they teach many harmful things such as:

- In History we learn that Moroccans are arabs and the history of Morocco starts with the Idrissides some 1200 years ago! (Why not teaching more details of the berbers before islam? are they affraid of what would happen?)

- In Tarbia Al Wataniya (the most brainwashing machine ever) they teach us to repect and obbey a king that holds all powers

- In Tarbia Al Islamiya they teach us the principles of Islam, such as help the poors and be kind to animals. But also that man are better than women, that we should punish anyone who have sex outside marriage and worse than that some unscientific beliefs such as creation.

All of this is teached in languages (arabic and french) that moroccans doesn't speak in their homes (darija and berber) which is utterly ridiculous!!!

[Muttie]

Originally Posted by AceOfSpades

@ Muttie's logic !

According to Muttie :

- Secularism > Sharia

Correct.

- But we shouldn't push for it , because the majority may be against it , out of ignorance .

Incorrect. We should educate the people so they can see the benefits of secularism themselves and when the time is right, trough democratic elections or through revolution secularism will be achieved.

Change " secularism " with " equality of races " and " Sharia " with " White supremacy " ... See how ridiculous you sound ?! Fair play , yo !

This is not 'fair play' - this is a Chinese method of deduction. It's called projections and in no way represents anything I said.

[Muttie]

Originally Posted by TANGERIN

Là tu recommences avec ta mauvaise fois

Le referendum sur la constitution est unanimement considéré comme ayant été un plébiscite pour le roi et si tu connaissait un peu mieux le Maroc, tu saurais que les Marocains ont voté massivement oui .

Pour ton sondage qui est fait par un think tank neo-con, le taux de 83 %est la moyenne de tous les musulmans du monde avec des disparités entre 99% en Afghanistan et 8% en Azerbaïdjan ( pas de vrais chiffres pour le Maroc ) . je prefere le sufrage universel à un sondage ou je ne connais pas la forme des questions est la forme des reponses .

PEW is a renowned institute. I have no reason to doubt the figures. I do have many reasons to doubt the outcome of the referendum - because we all know that there has been a huge boycot and the state is known to fiddle around with numers and outcomes. Second the percentage I mentioned is not an 'average' - its about Morocco. You will see it if you scroll down the page. This means that the VAST majority does not want secularity. It actually wants a theocracy. Now tell me, what if there was a referendum where we all can vote about secularity. And the outcome is negative. What would you do? Still shove secularity down the throat of the population?

Tu n'as toujours pas compris

La Laïcité ne peut être imposée sans un vote clair . Pour l'instant on ne parle que d'adapter les lois Marocaines aux standards internationaux .

Explique moi comment le fait de vouloir appliquer les droits de l'homme et l'egalité entre tous les citoyens est un manque de respect envers eux ?

We can clearly see the people here DO want to introduce secularity without the support of the majority of the people. They do not follow the democratic path in which people which oppose secularity have a voice.

[Muttie]

Originally Posted by Genbank

Elite?!!! WTH

It's a pic from a class in the city, all of the people who used to live in the city (at least in Tetouan) dressed that way (except for old women)

Thank you for proving my point. In the city. Back in the 50's and 60's Morocco was not urbanized as it is now. Actually many of the peasents just now (from the 90's onwards) are moving to the big cities in Morocco. Your pictures thus don't tell anything of the state of the country.

The problem is that even in the city, it's looking more and more like Saudi Arabia!! The same colleges where you found boys and girls dressing like that are now full of veiled women and islamist students!

Thats because of urbanization. Ex-peasents are moving towards the cities (work, education etc.). Ex-peasents are more conservative then non-peasents which have lived their whole life (for generations) in the city. In fact, your image shows progress. Finaly girls from conservative families can go to school.

[TANGERIN]

Originally Posted by Muttie

PEW is a renowned institute. I have no reason to doubt the figures. I do have many reasons to doubt the outcome of the referendum - because we all know that there has been a huge boycot and the state is known to fiddle around with numers and outcomes. Second the percentage I mentioned is not an 'average' - its about Morocco. You will see it if you scroll down the page. This means that the VAST majority does not want secularity. It actually wants a theocracy. Now tell me, what if there was a referendum where we all can vote about secularity. And the outcome is negative. What would you do? Still shove secularity down the throat of the population?


We can clearly see the people here DO want to introduce secularity without the support of the majority of the people. They do not follow the democratic path in which people which oppose secularity have a voice.

Moi je vois quelqu'un qui fait de la gymnastique intelectuelle pour refuser aux Marocains le minimum de droits qui leur permetteraient de devenir des citoyens et de vivre dans la dignité .

[Mister79]

Originally Posted by Genbank

Of course they are not dumber than ours, at least they went to Attaturk's secular schools and universities where they learned that State and Faith are two different things.

The economic growth of Turkey didn't start with the islamists in 2002. The reforms started way before when turks decided to open the economy, to fight corruption and to have a strong and free judicial system all of that guaranteed by all the rationality and pragmatism of a Democratic Secular State. In other words, the success of Turkey has nothing to do with Allah or whatsoever but with the same things that did China (even if democracy is still absent), Brazil, South Korea and others...DEMOCRACY, LIBERAL ECONOMY and HUMAN DEVELOPPEMENT! and Morocco is failling in the whole three:

- Democracy: There is none.
- Liberal Economy: For the king holdings and friends.
- Human Developpement: In big cities only (= less than 50% of the Moroccan population)

What you are saying about Turkey is not true. The Turkish army was for decades in power and their was no real independent judicial system. It was the army who controlled the country.
If you look to the GDP of Turkey in the sixties, seventies, eighties etc it wasn't that big. Secularism didn't brought them prosperity..

The real economic boom of Turkey started after 2000 when they started to open the economy. Before that everything was in hands of the army, elite etc. Before 2000 Turkey had only 1 billion dollar FDI a year, their export was one big joke.
The economic reforms of the AK made of Turkey an economic power and its was the AK who reduced the power of the army and made Turkey more democratic.

DEMOCRACY, LIBERAL ECONOMY and HUMAN DEVELOPPEMENT! and Morocco is failling in the whole three:

- Democracy: There is none.
- Liberal Economy: For the king holdings and friends.
- Human Developpement: In big cities only (= less than 50% of the Moroccan population)

I agree 100%
Morocco needs major economic reforms just like Turkey did to get higher growth and to lift people out of poverty. Their is no other alternative.
Also reduce the power of the palace..
This things are far more important than secularism..

The AK reduced the power of the army and open the economy, that is what Morocco needs. A party that can stand up against the regime and force them to reform.

[Mister79]

Originally Posted by doukali

So, at least the Islamists are not as dumb as you describe them!

Attaturk's economic reforms were destroyed by the military regimes Turkey had until the Islamists took over.

Better still, the Islamists are actually responsible for this huge improvement in the Turkish economy compared to before.

So dont give all the credit to Attaturk and instead give a lot of it to the Islamists.

We don't agree much, but you are 100% right. It was the AK who saved Turkey, before 2000 Turkey was allmost bankrupt and in big economic crisis.

Turkey before 2000 , 1 billion dollar FDI, now allmost 15-20 billion dollar a year, In 1980 they exported for 3 billion dollar products and 90% was agriculture products, now its is more than 130 billion dollar,
their debt has declined, their middle class is booming, they have developed big construction companies in just a couple years who build in the whole world (they earned 600 million dollar in 2000 and in 2015 they will earn 40 billion dollar) , their export to Africa, Middle East has boomed, they don't depend much on the IMF anymore as in the past..

Only the AK and Kemal Dervis deserve the credit for that. Erdogan is a real muslim, he isn't greedy, he doesn't want to make a fortune, but he wants the best for his country and people. And that is why Turkey is growing as never seen before.
Turkey will overtake the GDP of many EU countries.
This is what economic reforms and good leadership can do with a country in just a couple years..

Morocco is investing billions since 1999 in projects, but not much has changed. No major economic reforms, no real development, little growth, weak private sector, no jobs..