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Old February 26th, 2010, 11:56 PM   #41
Steely Dan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srsmn View Post
Hmmm....I wonder what our number would be in the Twin Cities with St. Paul
's downtown considered?

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if more than 13 or 14% of our metro's office space was in downtown St. Paul, although it would surprise me a bit if we were to pass Chicago on that list...
according to grub and ellis, if you combine all of minneapolis and st. paul (not necessarily just the CBDs, they're not terribly specific so it's hard to tell if they're always comparing apples to apples) you get 38,404,999 SF. so dividing that by 70,722,393 you get 54.3%.

the reason i didn't combine them on the first list is because if you make the argument that st. paul should be included as a second CBD for the twin cities, then the st. louisians could make a claim that clayton should be included as a second CBD for their metro because in a way, that's exactly what clayton has grown into being. so i just limited it to one CBD per metro, but because of the twin cities' wacky bi-polar nature, it does make direct apples to apples comparisons more challenging.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 04:52 AM   #42
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The number they gave for the Detroit CBD seems awfully low. Every other market report I've ever seen puts it at twice that size (25 million). They must have a crazy-strict view of what they consider to be downtown Detroit. 12 million seems like they only include the financial district, and "CBD North" must be any office space north of that but south of the Fisher.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 07:27 AM   #43
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I would assume that if they included the area stretching from the Riverfront to the actual train station, Detroit would have a lot more than 12 million sq. ft. Hell, the Ren Cen (2.2 million sq. ft.) accounts for nearly 20% of that 12 million.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 08:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
according to grub and ellis, if you combine all of minneapolis and st. paul (not necessarily just the CBDs, they're not terribly specific so it's hard to tell if they're always comparing apples to apples) you get 38,404,999 SF. so dividing that by 70,722,393 you get 54.3%.

the reason i didn't combine them on the first list is because if you make the argument that st. paul should be included as a second CBD for the twin cities, then the st. louisians could make a claim that clayton should be included as a second CBD for their metro because in a way, that's exactly what clayton has grown into being. so i just limited it to one CBD per metro, but because of the twin cities' wacky bi-polar nature, it does make direct apples to apples comparisons more challenging.
well, from what I understand, Clayton is a suburb, while St Paul developed along with Minneapolis.
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Old February 28th, 2010, 02:36 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
according to grub and ellis, if you combine all of minneapolis and st. paul (not necessarily just the CBDs, they're not terribly specific so it's hard to tell if they're always comparing apples to apples) you get 38,404,999 SF. so dividing that by 70,722,393 you get 54.3%.

the reason i didn't combine them on the first list is because if you make the argument that st. paul should be included as a second CBD for the twin cities, then the st. louisians could make a claim that clayton should be included as a second CBD for their metro because in a way, that's exactly what clayton has grown into being. so i just limited it to one CBD per metro, but because of the twin cities' wacky bi-polar nature, it does make direct apples to apples comparisons more challenging.
That makes absolutely no sense. Clayton is a city of about 13,000 people that wasn't even founded or incorporated until over 100 years after St. Louis. St. Paul's history actually predates that of Minneapolis; it's been the state capital since Minnesota was admitted to the Union in 1858, and has always been a core city of the Twin Cities area.

If people from St. Louis are going to call Clayton analogous to St. Paul, we could just as easily say that Bloomington should be included in that calculation. People from Detroit could say that Southfield should be included, too, and pretty soon the entire point of this thread is dead and mute.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 02:52 AM   #46
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Interesting Skyline!
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Old March 10th, 2010, 07:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srsmn View Post
That makes absolutely no sense. Clayton is a city of about 13,000 people that wasn't even founded or incorporated until over 100 years after St. Louis. St. Paul's history actually predates that of Minneapolis; it's been the state capital since Minnesota was admitted to the Union in 1858, and has always been a core city of the Twin Cities area.

If people from St. Louis are going to call Clayton analogous to St. Paul, we could just as easily say that Bloomington should be included in that calculation. People from Detroit could say that Southfield should be included, too, and pretty soon the entire point of this thread is dead and mute.
i understand the historical differences between st. paul and clayton. my point in excluding st. paul from the original list was to have as close of an apples to apples comparison as possible by only including the single largest CBD in a given metro area, but as i've stated several times, the twin cities bi-polar nature makes such an apples to apples comparison difficult. the fact is that downtown minneapolis and downtown st. paul don't form a single CBD, they are two seperate entities.
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Old March 10th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i understand the historical differences between st. paul and clayton. my point in excluding st. paul from the original list was to have as close of an apples to apples comparison as possible by only including the single largest CBD in a given metro area, but as i've stated several times, the twin cities bi-polar nature makes such an apples to apples comparison difficult. the fact is that downtown minneapolis and downtown st. paul don't form a single CBD, they are two seperate entities.
Fair enough, I guess.
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Old March 12th, 2010, 06:08 AM   #49
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Being from St Louis, I find it interesting how some cities' highrises are largely concentrated in the CBD-- such as in the case of Columbus and Indianapolis.

In St Louis, there are pockets of high rises on an east-west axis stretching all the way from the Mississippi River to the suburbs:
At the east end of the axis is downtown St Louis.
A mile or so west, Grand Center and SLU. Includes the Continental Building (286'), Council House East (280'), and Desloge Towers (250').
A few blocks further, the Central West End. Includes the Park East Tower (330'), Chase Park Plaza (310'), and Barnes-Jewish Hospital South (270').
At the city limits, some highrise apartment buildings, including the Dorchester (260').
A mile an a half west, the impressive Clayton skyline (see list earlier in this thread).
Lastly, Richmond Heights/Brentwood, including the University Club Tower (326').

I have always imagined what downtown St Louis would look like if most (or all) of these highrises had been built in the CBD. The density would be amazing!
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Old September 13th, 2010, 06:52 PM   #50
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grub & ellis finally added data for cleveland, so here are how midwest metros stack up for the percentage of metro office space located in the CBD. cleveland really stacks up well, it has significantly more office space downtown than its midwestern peers.



major midwest metros ranked by percentage of office space located downtown*:

city - CBD office SF / total metro office SF = % office space downtown
  1. cleveland - 21,705,078 / 39,043,259 = 55.6%
  2. chicago - 128,437,405 / 235,929,928 = 54.4%
  3. milwaukee - 12,483,388 / 28,455,226 = 43.9%
  4. cincinnati - 11,919,525 / 36,997,992 = 32.2%
  5. indianapolis - 14,709,070 / 46,910,163 = 31.4%
  6. columbus - 12,289,446 / 40,984,243 = 30.0%
  7. kansas city - 14,551,688 / 50,557,630 = 28.8%
  8. st. louis - 14,808,672 / 52,949,533 = 27.9%
  9. detroit - 12,354,069 / 69,320,236 = 17.8%

source: http://www.grubb-ellis.com/


* the twin cities are not included because their dual-CBD nature makes direct comparisons to traditional single-CBD metros very difficult.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 07:54 AM   #51
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That is no surprise whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that St. Louis, Detroit, and Kansas City have suburban skylines and downtowns more so than the other cities mentioned.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 02:04 PM   #52
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It's amazing how different the numbers are from company to company.

For example, Collier's says the numbers are:

Detroit - 30,239,406 CBD / 151,002,223 Metro (162,710,814 when you include Ann Arbor) <source>
Columbus - 12,353,730 CBD / 40,574,182 Metro <source>
Cincinnati - 11,919,525 CBD / 36,997,992 Metro <source>

They also have Chicago's CBD at 131,254,269 and while they have a report on the suburbs, I don't think it covers the entire suburban area, but rather just the northern and western suburbs. <source>

Interestingly, the numbers for Cincinnati are exactly the same, but the numbers for Detroit are more than double that of what is reported by Grubb-Ellis.

The vacancy rate for the various CBD's are:
Cincinnati - 18.3%
Detroit - 17.7%
Chicago - 17.2%
Columbus - 15.6%
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Old September 14th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColDayMan View Post
That is no surprise whatsoever. It's not a coincidence that St. Louis, Detroit, and Kansas City have suburban skylines and downtowns more so than the other cities mentioned.
does kansas city really have noteworthy suburban skylines? on the list of tallest midwest suburban buildings on the previous page, not a single entrant was from the KC metro. now, in looking at the stats, there sure does seem to be a crapload of non-CBD office space in KC, but i'm guessing that the vast majority of it is located in lowrise campus-like office parks.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
grub & ellis finally added data for cleveland, so here are how midwest metros stack up for the percentage of metro office space located in the CBD. cleveland really stacks up well, it has significantly more office space downtown than its midwestern peers.



major midwest metros ranked by percentage of office space located downtown*:

city - CBD office SF / total metro office SF = % office space downtown
cleveland - 21,705,078 / 39,043,259 = 55.6%
chicago - 128,437,405 / 235,929,928 = 54.4%
milwaukee - 12,483,388 / 28,455,226 = 43.9%
cincinnati - 11,919,525 / 36,997,992 = 32.2%
indianapolis - 14,709,070 / 46,910,163 = 31.4%
columbus - 12,289,446 / 40,984,243 = 30.0%
kansas city - 14,551,688 / 50,557,630 = 28.8%
st. louis - 14,808,672 / 52,949,533 = 27.9%
detroit - 12,354,069 / 69,320,236 = 17.8%

source: http://www.grubb-ellis.com/
RE: Grubb-Ellis - this is ONLY "leasable class A space".

It does not include govt owned office space (unless leaseable). It also does not include class B or C space, which older downtowns like Kansas City, Detroit, STL, Cleveland, Cinci, etc. has a butt load of. Nor does it include privately owned buildings that are not leased. If a company owns the building and is the main tenant, that space is not counted in the above figures.

KC has millions of sq ft in older warehouses that are not rehabbed to class A. The West Bottoms alone probably has 6 million sq ft that is leaseable at class B or C only. The Crossroads District - same deal.

Additionally the federal Govt is one of Kansas City's major employers. Downtown KC contains several million sq ft of Govt owned office space that is not included. Throw in state and local govt towers/buildings and it's a huge percentage of space not leasable -maybe as much as 30%.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 01:31 AM   #55
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Midwest suburban buildings 250' and taller by metro area:


St. Louis:
  1. 409'/30 floors - The Plaza in Clayton, Clayton, MO
  2. 326'/23 floors - University Club Tower, Richmond Heights, MO
  3. 312'/24 floors - The Sevens Building, Clayton, MO
  4. 309'/23 floors - Pirre Laclede Center II, Clayton, MO
  5. 305'/25 floors - Ameristar St. Charles Hotel, St. Charels, MO
    299'/27 floors - Trianon Condos, Clayton, MO - ON HOLD
  6. 275'/19 floors - Interco Corp. Tower, Clayton, MO
  7. 266'/23 floors - Clayton on the Park, Clayton MO
  8. 263'/18 floors - National City Center, Clayton, MO
  9. 262'/24 floors - Park Tower, Clayton, MO
  10. 262'/17 floors - Maryland Walk, Clayton, MO



Detroit:
  1. 402'/32 floors - 3000 Town Center, Southfield, MI
  2. 395'/28 floors - 1000 Town Center, Southfield, MI
  3. 370'/28 floors - 2000 Town Center, Southfield, MI
  4. 346'/25 floors - National City Center, Troy, MI
  5. 331'/25 floors - American Center, Southfield, MI
  6. 328'/33 floors - 5000 Town Center, Southfield, MI
  7. 270'/20 floors - 4000 Town Center, Southfield, MI
  8. 260'/29 floors - 9 Mile Tower, St. Clair Shores, MI
  9. 256'/18 floors - Travelers Tower, Southfield, MI
  10. 253'/21 floors - One Town Square, Southfield, MI



Chicago:
  1. 418'/31 floors - Oak Brook Terrace Tower, Oak Brook Terrace, IL
    409'/35 floors - 708 Church Street, Evanston, IL - APPROVED
  2. 395'/26 floors - The Gallagher Center, Itasca, IL
  3. 277'/22 floors - Chase Building, Evanston, IL
  4. 276'/25 floors - Sherman Plaza, Evanston, IL
  5. 270'/20 floors - Zurich Towers 1, Schaumburg, IL
  6. 270'/20 floors - Zurich Towers 2, Schaumburg, IL
  7. 266'/19 floors - Esplanade 1, Downers Grove, IL
  8. 265'/28 floors - Optima Views, Evanston, IL
  9. 263'/21 floors - 425 Woodfield Corp. Center, Schaumburg, IL



Twin Cities:
  1. 381'/24 floors - 8500 Tower, Bloomington, MN
  2. 300'/24 floors - Wells Fargo Plaza, Bloomington, MN
  3. 263'/16 floors - 601 Carlson Parkway, Minnetonka, MN
  4. 263'/16 floors - 701 Carlson Parkway, Minnetonka, MN



Cincinnati:
  1. 308'/19 floors - RiverCenter I, Covington, KY
  2. 293'/21 floors - The Ascent, Covington, KY
  3. 292'/17 floors - RiverCenter II, Covington, KY



Cleveland:
  1. 264'/28 floors - Winton Place Apartments, Lakewood, OH
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Old September 15th, 2010, 02:52 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
does kansas city really have noteworthy suburban skylines? on the list of tallest midwest suburban buildings on the previous page, not a single entrant was from the KC metro. now, in looking at the stats, there sure does seem to be a crapload of non-CBD office space in KC, but i'm guessing that the vast majority of it is located in lowrise campus-like office parks.
I was thinking Overland Park, Olathe, and sections of the city south of downtown (Crown Center; the Plaza).
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Old September 15th, 2010, 04:58 AM   #57
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Bloomington:









Richfield:

[IMG]http://t3.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNxY48zF18MZS8Nyt4Knhb2zjQfiGyR8rhsG4VjXaGNq-XQrQ&t=1&usg=__MqZqzJxkVj0WYA40MHljsAWZTZU=[/IMG]

[IMG]http://t0.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTp2ZM-ZKFxgfI1bO0LXHIPDK6rmIVxdwhninvHUtyH8q_Ie8&t=1&usg=__SZ3ijFKJv9J9W4kxsBrm6x4Z5hg=[/IMG]

richfields actually got like a cluster of buidlings to form a downtown area, i just cant find it online.. plus theres a ton along 494 on the opposite side of all the bloomington buildings.. i just cant find them online either
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Old September 15th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #58
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Lots of Twin Cities suburbs have a few midrise buildings, but none of them have a real "skyline", in my opinion.
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Old September 15th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #59
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The skyline of Eden Park and Hyde Park east of downtown Cincinnati.
image hosted on flickr

Suburban Cincy skyline by Queen City Kid, on Flickr
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Old September 16th, 2010, 12:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
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Lots of Twin Cities suburbs have a few midrise buildings, but none of them have a real "skyline", in my opinion.

but the one in richfield i think might count.. possibly, cause like its not just like one or two buildings there, its actually quite a few.


all i know for like area wise is that lyndale goes through it.
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