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Old October 30th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #141
wlbkng
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Modern history of Tamil Nadu

Friends,

I have doubts about modern Tamilnadu.. i.e after independence. Those who know the correct answers please clarify.. But don't guess or assume as I want to know the true.

* While carving state of TN(then Madras state), who were the negotiators(apart from Rajaji)? Except linguistic basis what are the other factors which played role in carving our state?

* The reason why I have posted this is why those people did not have an idea of the rivers and origin.. as only the source of the river is in other states while it flows in TN and always we have probs with other states for water.. why did we lose such big forests in kerala(where literally no big population is there to be divided on a linguistic basis) where many rivers originate..

* This point may be a bit absurd. If we could go till Hosur, why we did not negotiate for b'lore? i know this is too stupid from today's point of time but it is not so by that time.

* What about chittor, tirupathi, sriharikota etc? i know andra people tried to take madras into andra and make it as capital but what made to lose tirupathi, chittor etc.? in that time i reckon that there were large amount of tamil community in tat place..

* why did we lose kolar gold fields, and other areas etc...
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Old November 1st, 2010, 10:03 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by wlbkng View Post
Friends,

I have doubts about modern Tamilnadu.. i.e after independence. Those who know the correct answers please clarify.. But don't guess or assume as I want to know the true.

* While carving state of TN(then Madras state), who were the negotiators(apart from Rajaji)? Except linguistic basis what are the other factors which played role in carving our state?

* The reason why I have posted this is why those people did not have an idea of the rivers and origin.. as only the source of the river is in other states while it flows in TN and always we have probs with other states for water.. why did we lose such big forests in kerala(where literally no big population is there to be divided on a linguistic basis) where many rivers originate..

* This point may be a bit absurd. If we could go till Hosur, why we did not negotiate for b'lore? i know this is too stupid from today's point of time but it is not so by that time.

* What about chittor, tirupathi, sriharikota etc? i know andra people tried to take madras into andra and make it as capital but what made to lose tirupathi, chittor etc.? in that time i reckon that there were large amount of tamil community in tat place..

* why did we lose kolar gold fields, and other areas etc...
I also wonder why we lose part of palakkad dist, Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority. My uncle resides in a village in KL-TN border which falls under Palakkad district. Malayalees are less than 10%(even less than this). you can rarely notice a Malayalam speaking people in these areas(except the bakery and tea shops).. Those ppl depends on CBE completely.

Kanyakumari dist ppl fought and they are merged with TN after formation of KL. Donno why ppl from other parts which i mentioned didnt fought.
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Old November 1st, 2010, 08:53 PM   #143
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I also wonder why we lose part of palakkad dist, Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority. My uncle resides in a village in KL-TN border which falls under Palakkad district. Malayalees are less than 10%(even less than this). you can rarely notice a Malayalam speaking people in these areas(except the bakery and tea shops).. Those ppl depends on CBE completely.

Kanyakumari dist ppl fought and they are merged with TN after formation of KL. Donno why ppl from other parts which i mentioned didnt fought.
actually i heard something like to get kanyakumari we ceded munnar...
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Old November 4th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
I also wonder why we lose part of palakkad dist, Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority.Kanyakumari dist ppl fought and they are merged with TN after formation of KL. Donno why ppl from other parts which i mentioned didnt fought.
Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.

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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
I also wonder why we lose Munnar(and part of Idukki dist) in KL where tamils are considered as majority.
Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.

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Originally Posted by wlbkng View Post
actually i heard something like to get kanyakumari we ceded munnar...
For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.
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Old November 5th, 2010, 08:32 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.



Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.



For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.
Palakkad going to kerala makes sense as the Tamils (mostly Brahmins) living there are descendants of migrants from TN. It has historically been a Malayalam speaking district...and even most tamil brahmins in palakkad can speak malayalam fluently.
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Old November 6th, 2010, 11:52 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.



Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.



For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.
In the ensuring discussions, don't miss out on Shencottah region which was transferred to TN. Shencottah was once the border town of Travancore state and even now the arch with the conch symbol stands at the entrance of Shencottah.

Regards,
Subbu
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Old November 6th, 2010, 01:35 PM   #147
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shencottah too? hmm learning point for me.... but does anyone know how come we went so close to bangalore(i mean till hosur) but we dint get b'lore... similarly we did not get kolar, chittor, pulicat and sriharikota where there were no clear linguistic majority during independence i suppose.. anyone know why.. also why did we lose katchatheevu as a gift to SL.. and now our own people aint allowed to go der even for fishing.. what is the significance of that island?
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Old November 6th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Eventhough part of erstwhile Travancore, Kanyakumari dist had a predominant Tamil population, especially of Nadars. Nairs & Nadars were the majority communities in KK dist, the former being the landlords and the latter subtenants to the former. While Nairs spoke Malayalam, Nadars are Tamil speaking who migrated to Travancore during 16th Century AD.

Since Tamil speaking people were absolute majority, KK dist was merged with TN, eventhough regarding geography, climate, history or social indices, it resembled more of Kerala.

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.



Tamils in Munnar or parts of Idukki are mainly migrant plantation workers. Of course they form a 'lingusitic minority' and sometimes a 'decisive' factor in elections, but not a majoity population in the whole of the district. Most of them live in plantation quarters. Also population is comparably sparse. We also use to hear stories in newspapers that large number of them have migrated back to the villages in their home State when crisis hit the tea sector.



For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.
Kerala was ruled by the Tamil Chera kings for a very long time before the Kerala Rajas took over.

So there is no surprise that Tamils are in large numbers there...just that they had migrated to places closer to TN in the past few centuries.

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chera_Dynasty)

Old Chera kingdom - Kerala during the Sangam period

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Old November 7th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlbkng View Post
Friends,

I have doubts about modern Tamilnadu.. i.e after independence. Those who know the correct answers please clarify.. But don't guess or assume as I want to know the true.

* While carving state of TN(then Madras state), who were the negotiators(apart from Rajaji)? Except linguistic basis what are the other factors which played role in carving our state?

* The reason why I have posted this is why those people did not have an idea of the rivers and origin.. as only the source of the river is in other states while it flows in TN and always we have probs with other states for water.. why did we lose such big forests in kerala(where literally no big population is there to be divided on a linguistic basis) where many rivers originate..

* This point may be a bit absurd. If we could go till Hosur, why we did not negotiate for b'lore? i know this is too stupid from today's point of time but it is not so by that time.

* What about chittor, tirupathi, sriharikota etc? i know andra people tried to take madras into andra and make it as capital but what made to lose tirupathi, chittor etc.? in that time i reckon that there were large amount of tamil community in tat place..

* why did we lose kolar gold fields, and other areas etc...
blore, kolar, chittoor, tirupati etc are located in a region where people speaking telugu, kannada and tamil are residents. but there is a bigger majority of telugu speakers in chittor, tirupati, sriharikota etc and kannda speakers in blore, kolar etc. since i am more familiar with history of ktaka, i am in a better position to explain why tn didnt get blore or kolar. when these reqions were under mysore state, under a treaty, the maharaja of mysore gave some land near blore, which is the cantonment of the present to the british, for their offices. kolar was given mainly for gold mining. During this time, a lot of laborers who were tamils, migrated to this region for employment. thats how the number of tamils in these areas increased to some extent. after independence, since blore was more commercially developed, the capital of mysore state was moved to blore from mysore. its obvious that no one will give away their capital. frankly speaking, this region has 60% kannadigas, nd 20% each of telugu tamil speakers. same is the case with chittoor, tirupati, sriharikota etc., where the majority( >70%) speak telugu.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 06:55 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post

Palakkad has some 25% Tamils, mostly Tamil Brahmins, who migrated from Thanjavur or so, by invitation by the ruling Rajas. Infact Trivandrum city also has about 15% Tamils, mostly brahmins, who were brought by the Travancore Rajas for the Pooja/Works related to Sri Padmanabha Swamy Temple.
East of palakkad district which is near to TN borders has around 75% tamil speaking population. I can very well see this because my uncle resides in village that is part of palakkad dist. Tamils living in these areas are not migrant population. Most of them are dependent on either CBE or Pollachi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
For the loss of Kanyakumari, Kerala was given Palakkad. Infact it is not fair to say gain or loss, but those regions where Tamil or Malayalam speakers were majority, were merged with the respective state. Thats all.
Merging of KK dist is not a loss to KL. It was merged after having agitations by nesamony and his supporters. We dont have good leader in the TN bordering areas in palakkad dist for doing this.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 09:18 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by ChennaiIndian View Post
Kerala was ruled by the Tamil Chera kings for a very long time before the Kerala Rajas took over.

So there is no surprise that Tamils are in large numbers there...just that they had migrated to places closer to TN in the past few centuries.

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chera_Dynasty)

Old Chera kingdom - Kerala during the Sangam period.

Are we speaking about the period during reorganization of states or about the period 1000 years back??

Tamil & Malayalam in its present form took shape several centuries later from the ‘Proto’ language that was used during that times.

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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
East of palakkad district which is near to TN borders has around 75% tamil speaking population. I can very well see this because my uncle resides in village that is part of palakkad dist.
Friend, please speak based on ‘statistics’ only which would be available with the local bodies. I am not fully denying that there could be considerable population of Tamils close to the border in Palakkad. It might not have been a majority during the time of reorganization. And I think it doesn’t matter if some villages have higher population, it would be atleat on the basis of Taluks.

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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
Merging of KK dist is not a loss to KL. It was merged after having agitations by nesamony and his supporters. We dont have good leader in the TN bordering areas in palakkad dist for doing this.
Not only leaders, the number of followers too matter. And it is about absolute numbers only. As I said earlier, some taluks of present day KK dist were having more number of Tamils (Mostly Nadars). Malayalees were mainly the Nairs and even though they were the landlords, they were the minority.

The Tamils of Palakkad, mostly Brahmins were not a majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsubbu.mdu View Post
In the ensuring discussions, don't miss out on Shencottah region which was transferred to TN. Shencottah was once the border town of Travancore state and even now the arch with the conch symbol stands at the entrance of Shencottah.

Regards,
Subbu
Ya, Shencottah was the border town of Travancore. Now the border is in the ‘S’ Curve where you leave the ghats and enter the plains. Even though under the control of Travancore, Shencottah was predominantly Tamil as well as part of the Tamil Nadu plains. If you check ‘google earth’ images, you can find the difference in the topography and geology between the two states, esp near this border.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 10:00 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Are we speaking about the period during reorganization of states or about the period 1000 years back??

Tamil & Malayalam in its present form took shape several centuries later from the ‘Proto’ language that was used during that times.
we cannot consider the history thats 1000 yrs back for dividing states. Only ancient tamil was spoken in TN and KL in those days. Later tamil spoken in malai nadu(Chera) became the present day malayalam and TN adopted the present day tamil. I think malayalam has more ancient tamil words than we(tamils) use for conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Friend, please speak based on ‘statistics’ only which would be available with the local bodies. I am not fully denying that there could be considerable population of Tamils close to the border in Palakkad. It might not have been a majority during the time of reorganization. And I think it doesn’t matter if some villages have higher population, it would be atleat on the basis of Taluks.
I'm talking about the regions of Kozhinjampara and Chittoor in the present day Palakkad dist. Chittor has more malayalam speaking population. Atleast 60-70% of people are malayalees in chittoor town. In case of other towns in these areas, tamils are the majority. When you go towards palakkad, density of malayalam speaking people will increase.

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Originally Posted by sudheeshnairs View Post
Not only leaders, the number of followers too matter. And it is about absolute numbers only. As I said earlier, some taluks of present day KK dist were having more number of Tamils (Mostly Nadars). Malayalees were mainly the Nairs and even though they were the landlords, they were the minority.

The Tamils of Palakkad, mostly Brahmins were not a majority.
Tamils of palakkad(brahmins are more compared to others) got decreased in palakkad after the merger. I heard this from a friend who is a malayalee and native of palakkad.

In govt offices/panchayat/taluk offices they use notice boards in both malayalam and tamil. Compared to other states, KL scores here. In transporation, KeSRTC follows it well. KeSRTC buses have display boards in tamil too.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #153
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My God, I want AP,Karnataka,Kerala and TN should put up a joint front,with common goals to preserve our way of life and act as pressure group to develop our region.Free borders and intermingling (by Marriage)can even lead to formation of a federation sort of thing ,ultimately resulting in great prosperity to our people and region as whole...

Time being let us forget about north of Vindhyas and unite.

Why bother over Palaghat,Mysore,Bangalore,Thirupathi etc.?

Justice Party in TN, the forerunner to the present Dravidian Parties was formed by Mr G N Chetty,Dr Natesan and Dr Nair, You have major roads named after them in T Nagar,Chennai.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 12:16 PM   #154
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That would be awesome. If four states join hands together for development, then it would be a win-win situation for all. building infrastructure will be the core for development.

Building high speed rail links and road network b/w
chennai-b'lore-mangalore (already proposed til b'lore),
chennai-tirupati-kurnool-hyderabad,
bangalore-bellary-raichur-palamooru-hyderabad,
chennai-salem-coimbatore-kochi-trivandrum,
trivandrum-kochi-kozhikode-mysore-bangalore,
chennai-trichy-madurai-kanyakumari
vizag-rajamundry-vijayawada-guntur- kavali-nellore-chennai-pondy-thanjavur-ramanathapuram-thoothukudi-nagaercoil (along the east coast)
goa-udupi-mangalore-mahe-kochi (along west coast)

* We can promote investment all together.. promote industrial regions and townships near the bordering regions b/w the states.

* Bring common syllabus for schools. they should improve and standardise the current syllabus in schools to a common yet advanced one. apart from each state's own mother tongue n english, students shud be encouraged to learn another south indian lang(better if it is part of system)

* We should promote package tourism b/w the states for travellers from our states/rest of india/abroad...

* e-governance should be implemented based on a common system and many offices should be linked b/w each states.. for e.g police dept should be upgraded to the highest standards possible and linked with each other to help finding crimes etc.

* Greater autonomy should be given to this region in order to take decisions on investments, partnerships, railways etc.

I hope others will have lot of proposals to put forward.. Well this is a dream but when it comes into force, it will be awesome!!
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Old November 8th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
we cannot consider the history thats 1000 yrs back for dividing states.
Yes, I was mentioning that only. The divisions were mainly based on the language being spoken by the ‘majority’ people at the time of reorganisation.

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Only ancient tamil was spoken in TN and KL in those days. Later tamil spoken in malai nadu(Chera) became the present day malayalam and TN adopted the present day tamil.
The evolution of the languages from the ‘Proto’ language took place in the last 1000 years. It was not the ‘Tamil’ spoken in Chera , but the ‘Proto’ language which transformed to Malayalam of Kerala later, with the influence of Sanskrit. (We had pages long debates in chaibar sometime back also).

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I think malayalam has more ancient tamil words than we(tamils) use for conversation.
I am not sure about Tamil words since I do not know much about Tamil, but there are lots of Sanskrit words. Malayalam was heavily Sanskritised through the ages and today, over eighty percent words of modern Malayalam are from pure Sanskrit.

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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
Tamils of palakkad(brahmins are more compared to others) got decreased in palakkad after the merger. I heard this from a friend who is a malayalee and native of palakkad.
That is more to do about ‘Brahmins’ rather than being Tamil. Same is the case with Namboothiris (Kerala Brahmins) too.

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Originally Posted by dhandapanik View Post
In govt offices/panchayat/taluk offices they use notice boards in both malayalam and tamil. Compared to other states, KL scores here. In transportation, KeSRTC follows it well. KeSRTC buses have display boards in tamil too.
Trivandrum city has Tamil medium schools for the minority Tamils. But in KK district, where there were similar number of Malayalees, the Malayalam medium schools were shut down and now practically nil or a very few schools exist.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #156
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My God, I want AP,Karnataka,Kerala and TN should put up a joint front, Time being let us forget about north of Vindhyas and unite.
I beg to differ. I would like to want the whole region till the Himalayas in the north and not till Vindhyas to unite and put up a joint front.

Personally speaking, I do keep only two mindsets, on a macro level I am an Indian and on a micro level I am a Mallu, nothing more than that.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 06:45 PM   #157
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The evolution of the languages from the ‘Proto’ language took place in the last 1000 years. It was not the ‘Tamil’ spoken in Chera , but the ‘Proto’ language which transformed to Malayalam of Kerala later, with the influence of Sanskrit. (We had pages long debates in chaibar sometime back also).

Here, i beg to differ.. there was no such evolution for Tamil before 1000 years. coz, the evolution of tamil was even very much earlier, present day modern tamil is not much different from its old tamil. (except in modern day lettters used for writing)
the proto / meta language for tamil is always tamil (some say old tamil, dramila, proto tamil etc etc.... but it was always tamil it is mentioned in Tolkappiyam a 300 BC literature also)
this said, i wud love to know what is the so called "proto" language for malayalam.??!!

sanskritization of malayalam took place only after 12th or 13th century. one can refer to any national/international indologists for this.

this said, again, one can take any word in malayalam and if they can arrive at
its etymology it shud fall under eiter proto tamil or prakrit or sanskrit (and again sanskritization of malayalam took place only after 12th century) the word "malayalam" itself is a good example.

these words can trigger another array of debates and hence i am stopping here, thanks,
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Old November 8th, 2010, 09:48 PM   #158
MegaStructure
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Old November 8th, 2010, 09:51 PM   #159
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^Such classifications are strictly for academic use, and are hardly relevant when it comes to politics, although politicians love to interpret/misinterpret scholarly studies to pursue their agenda.

Middle "Indo-Aryan" languages for example were built on a "Dravidian" substratum, while "Dravidian"" languages borrow a lot of vocabulary from "Indo-Aryan" languages. To define a certain territory/race/culture as "Dravidian" just doesn't stand up to academic scrutiny.

Last edited by MegaStructure; November 8th, 2010 at 09:57 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 10:33 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaStructure View Post
i can say this tree diagram is somewhat ok... but not fully correct. i dont want to go in details.

but my question even in my previous post was "what is that proto-dravidian" language? anyone interested can dig into that....

from the proto-dravidian itself, tamil is coming but all along with an attachment
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