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Old March 20th, 2017, 07:30 PM   #15041
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Originally Posted by koko_vp View Post
Well, no government want to spend hundreds of millions for fence, cameras, cars, equipment and helicopters, but when you have a rising Dictator for neighbour, which is constantly threatening the European union and using the refugee crysis to put pressure against Europe, that's what happen. Personally I have friends in Turkey and I feel really bad, because of the way Turkey is heading. But enough of geopolitics, the national security is not something to be underestimated. One more great benefit from the fence is that stops the herds of infected wild animals from Turkey carrying Foot-and-mouth disease (Aphthae epizooticae), causing hundreds of thousand euro in losses to the Bulgarian farmers.
That fence reminds me of the fence between the state of SFRY and the People's Republic of Bulgaria and I have seen it, and it was not a pleasant view compared to this one. Although that fence was not that evil, it was clear that it was made to take a life by any means if you try to cross it illegally. Also the guards from the Eastern Bloc side states had permissions to shoot.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #15042
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Then what you say about the fences between H/SLO and A/SLO.
There's no fence between Slovenia and Hungary. There are short fences between Slovenia and Austria, which Austrians should just remove, since they don't stop anyone and the Balkan route has been closed down anyway. They also insist on unnecessary border control, meanwhile Italy rescues thousands of Africans every month.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 10:26 PM   #15043
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The main differences between Cold War border fortifications and the current anti-immigration ones, is that the latters don't prevent normal people from both sides, with valid documents, to travel freely. Apart the Serb-Hungarian border, that was closed for some days following some disorders in 2015, all other borders remained open to all nationalities during migrant crisis. Crossing non-Schengen borders is allowed only at designated border crossings, anyway, so border fortifications don't affect normal travellers.
Cold War borders were another thing, instead, as for Warsaw Pact (and Albanian) citizens, it was impossible to go to Western countries unless they were privileged members of the party.
However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 11:15 PM   #15044
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There are short fences between Slovenia and Austria, which Austrians should just remove, since they don't stop anyone and the Balkan route has been closed down anyway.
Let's pay closer attention to former chancellor Faymann, he clearly explained those structures aren't fences , but "winged doors" (Türl mit Seitenteilen)

On the serious side, I wouldn't bet too much on the Balkan route definitely being closed down. Spring is coming, the EU-Turkey deal is uncertain, masses might be on the move once again. Even those already in Greece are in the tens of thousands.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 11:27 PM   #15045
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Even without Turkey there are around 70 000 people "stuck" in Bulgaria, Greece, Macedonia up to Serbia (10 000).

This another reason for upgrading fences in Hungary and Slovenia. Croatia is doing just fine with illegal pushbacks to Serbia and police brutality, it has a bad reputation among migrants.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 12:20 AM   #15046
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The main differences between Cold War border fortifications and the current anti-immigration ones, is that the latters don't prevent normal people from both sides, with valid documents, to travel freely. Apart the Serb-Hungarian border, that was closed for some days following some disorders in 2015, all other borders remained open to all nationalities during migrant crisis. Crossing non-Schengen borders is allowed only at designated border crossings, anyway, so border fortifications don't affect normal travellers.
Cold War borders were another thing, instead, as for Warsaw Pact (and Albanian) citizens, it was impossible to go to Western countries unless they were privileged members of the party.
However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.


I do not remember the border but I read an article about one where fence didn't exist any more but animals were absolutely different in one and another side of the same forest.
Reason?, many decades with a fence, they used to move always in the same caves, trees and so on.

No fence... but they had "their" territory.... and was just before international that territory
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Old March 21st, 2017, 12:24 AM   #15047
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The main differences between Cold War border fortifications and the current anti-immigration ones, is that the latters don't prevent normal people from both sides, with valid documents, to travel freely. Apart the Serb-Hungarian border, that was closed for some days following some disorders in 2015, all other borders remained open to all nationalities during migrant crisis. Crossing non-Schengen borders is allowed only at designated border crossings, anyway, so border fortifications don't affect normal travellers.
Cold War borders were another thing, instead, as for Warsaw Pact (and Albanian) citizens, it was impossible to go to Western countries unless they were privileged members of the party.
However, I'm concerned about the possible effects that border fences can have on wildlife and biodiversity. Since they can't be crossed by terrestrial animals, they may change the environmental equilibrium of the area in some decades.
SFRY was not part of the so called "Warsaw Pact" and it had those privileges, so its citizens could go to the Western countries without a visa. Unlike Bulgarians and Romanians, I was able to pass without questions or bureaucracies just everywhere.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 12:36 AM   #15048
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SFRY was not part of the so called "Warsaw Pact" and it had those privileges, so its citizens could go to the Western countries without a visa. Unlike Bulgarians and Romanians, I was able to pass without questions or bureaucracies just everywhere.
I know that, I was not saying that Yugoslavia was in Warsaw Pact, but that people from Warsaw Pact countries and Albania (that wasn't in Warsaw Pact but it had a hardcore communist regime) were usually forbidden to travel west.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 01:16 AM   #15049
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Not true.
Any evidence is acceptable, driving licence, bus passes etc.
Bus passes? Do you have to be a British resident to have a bus pass?
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Old March 21st, 2017, 03:25 AM   #15050
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SFRY was not part of the so called "Warsaw Pact" and it had those privileges, so its citizens could go to the Western countries without a visa. Unlike Bulgarians and Romanians, I was able to pass without questions or bureaucracies just everywhere.
Now it's the opposite.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 02:38 PM   #15051
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Really? I don't know what about the citizens of Serbia entering EU, but the EU citizens can enter Serbia without passports, an identity card is enough.

Of course except for those from countries where no personal identity cards are issued. But they need a passport to travel anywhere, even in Schengen.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 02:55 PM   #15052
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Bus passes? Do you have to be a British resident to have a bus pass?
The UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe. Do not be surprised about anything. Such as proving your identity by showing your gas bill.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 03:30 PM   #15053
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But they need a passport to travel anywhere, even in Schengen.
If you are talking about Serbia, we can travel with ID to Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 05:00 PM   #15054
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If you are talking about Serbia, we can travel with ID to Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
While MKD citizens can enter Serbia, Albania, Montenegro and Kosovo with a valid biometric ID.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:37 PM   #15055
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The UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe. Do not be surprised about anything. Such as proving your identity by showing your gas bill.
Whilst I believe you have your tongue firmly in your cheek, you must also provide photo ID too. If you can't then you need to provide a bank statement and two utility bills.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:38 PM   #15056
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AFAIK.... in 1973, for being qualified to football world cup Germany'74, Spain and Yugoslavia met in the same group. Both countries hadn't either embassies, either diplomatic relations.

At the end, France collaborated and was the country who gave visas for coaches and players to travel to the another country and would offer their embassies for any issues.

At the end, 2:2 in Spain, 0:0 in Yugoslavia and in the final board, tied in points and goal average, thus a tie break match in Germany. Yugoslavia won and played in the world cup.


By the way, first curious case... it was easier to be played in Belgrade and Madrid because embassy reasons... but they were played in Zagreb and... Las Palmas (hopeful, yugoslavians didn't have any problem there).

In another group, for same world cup, Northern Ireland had to play all matches as local in England. I do not know reason. They chose Coventry, London and Sheffield.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 06:49 PM   #15057
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In another group, for same world cup, Northern Ireland had to play all matches as local in England. I do not know reason. They chose Coventry, London and Sheffield.
It was because of 'The Troubles'. At that time the Provos were bombing Belfast just about every day so it was deemed unsafe.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 07:20 PM   #15058
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The UK is the largest outdoor museum in Europe. Do not be surprised about anything. Such as proving your identity by showing your gas bill.
Proving your identity is one thing, proving your nationality - another thing.

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Originally Posted by Alex_ZR View Post
If you are talking about Serbia, we can travel with ID to Macedonia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
What about travelling to the EU?
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Old March 21st, 2017, 07:56 PM   #15059
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What about travelling to the EU?
Passport is needed.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 09:26 PM   #15060
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Originally Posted by OulaL View Post
... never seen a speed limit not divisible by 5.
Maybe it's typically from the Balkans?
At the Croatian border crossing Karasovići towards Montenegro there is also a speed limit of 8 km/h
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