search the site
 daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 9th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #21
Sienioslaw
grumpy slav
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gdanzig
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReconstructer View Post
Still one of my favourite reconstructions, but did it always had the same street patern as pre-World War 2, or did the communists reorganized the streets after World War 2?
Most of streets in old town have the same pattern, I know only one street('groblena') that was 'moved' slightly for propaganda reasons(It was about better view over Kingschapel , which was built in dedication to Polish king - Jan III Sobieski), here is that street:

Here is the chapel:


Street before:

...and after:
__________________

Highcliff, Minsk liked this post

Last edited by Sienioslaw; February 9th, 2012 at 10:43 PM.
Sienioslaw no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 10th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #22
rychlik
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,809
Likes (Received): 6553

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
Looks fantastic, but knowing most buildings are fake makes them uninteresting. They are now just culturally hollow structures merely created to appeal us aestheticly.
Kind of an ignorant comment. These were reconstructions using traditional methods. Everything had to be re-done and the artistry and dedication should be admired on its own.
rychlik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 12:37 AM   #23
rychlik
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,809
Likes (Received): 6553

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sienioslaw View Post
Well, I cannot imagine this place filled with commieblocks

Anyway, today if someone want to put building in oldtown area, only modern architecture is allowed, let's take a look:
They look fantastic in my opinion. But what if there was desire to reconstruct a historical building? They would not let it? Why the silly rule?
rychlik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 02:02 AM   #24
Sienioslaw
grumpy slav
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gdanzig
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
They look fantastic in my opinion. But what if there was desire to reconstruct a historical building? They would not let it? Why the silly rule?
Yes indeed a silly rule, but our officials are bureaucrats, and holding strong on paragraphs of assigned international documents such as Venice Charter, where in article XV we can find:

Quote:
ARTICLE 15. Excavations should be carried out in accordance with scientific standards and the recommendation defining international principles to be applied in the case of archaeological excavation adopted by UNESCO in 1956. Ruins must be maintained and measures necessary for the permanent conservation and protection of architectural features and of objects discovered must be taken. Furthermore, every means must be taken to facilitate the understanding of the monument and to reveal it without ever distorting its meaning.

All reconstruction work should however be ruled out "a priori." Only anastylosis, that is to say, the reassembling of existing but dismembered parts can be permitted. The material used for integration should always be recognizable and its use should be the least that will ensure the conservation of a monument and the reinstatement of its form.
I belive if someone now wants to rebuild historical building, then he could face many issues from conservatives society(I mean guys caring about historical ancestry) , well now they are hmm... maybe not blocking(because I didn't hear about such example) but strongly favorizing filling free space of old town with modern architecture - only inspiring with old trends. They just think that Gdansk have enough of fake old buildings(we have in polish word such as 'makieta' - which have a pejorative meaning in case describing the building, they like using this word...), and we should start move on and start going further. Not sure if this is good way, especially when we see now examples of ungoing reconstructions on west - like in Dresden, when they also building in modern way but also reconstructing some buildings in nice proportions per quarter. I wish the Gdansk follow that way, because If we look at afterwar reconstruction of Gdansk, we will see that they made a lot of errors in rebuild process - today we could avoid them, and rebuilded buildings could be more valuable. But first there must be will of continuation of that process. And as far I live in Gdansk I don't see it. Sadly.

Btw. I'm pleasantly surprised, this thread live for about two days, and we avoided discussion such as 'Danzig ist DEUTSCH!!!1' etc.
Sienioslaw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 02:59 AM   #25
rychlik
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,809
Likes (Received): 6553

I can't believe a country like Poland has to follow some international law in regards to historical reconstructions. Seems absurd.



If you look at this picture, the area rebuilt and renovated is quite huge. Nothing to be ashamed of. And trust me, the average tourist can't tell if something was reconstructed with "mistakes". I think Poland has done the best job at reconstructing their cities.
rychlik no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 03:00 AM   #26
Hut_17
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 504
Likes (Received): 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Post-war reconstruction of Gdańsk (Polish city on the Baltic coast)

1946



Now

Amazing
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Hut_17 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 09:57 AM   #27
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,255
Likes (Received): 3282

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sienioslaw View Post
'Danzig ist DEUTSCH!!!1' etc.
Throughout its long history Gdańsk faced various periods of rule from different states before 1945...
997-1308: as part of Poland
1308-1454: as part of territory of Teutonic Order
1454-1466: Thirteen Years' War
1466-1793: as part of Poland (15th to mid 17th Century is called Polish Golden Age. It's the time when most of Gdansk Old Town was built. Please see the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Golden_Age)
Gdansk during this period

1793-1805: as part of Prussia
1807-1814: as free city
1815-1871: as part of Prussia
1871-1920: Imperial Germany
1920-1939: as a free city
1939-1945: Nazi Germany
1945-now: territory of Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gda%C5%84sk

Between 1952 and the late 1960s Polish artisans restored much of the old city's architecture, up to 90% destroyed in the war.

BTW I'm just wondering if all interiors have been restored to the pre-war look?
__________________

Highcliff, C-mere, Mr.RoRo, Urbanista1 liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 10th, 2012 at 02:52 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 10:26 AM   #28
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,255
Likes (Received): 3282

Town Hall (Ratusz)
Before WW2



After WW2 (reconstruction work has begun)



Now

__________________

Highcliff liked this post
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 12:25 PM   #29
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,255
Likes (Received): 3282

Some videos about pre-war and post-war Gdansk.

http://www.danzig-online.pl/mm/videostart.html

I would recommend this video "Zobacz film o Gdańsku z 1946 r. (5 MB - 1:48 min)".
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #30
Locke
Guac Bowl Merchant
 
Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,774
Likes (Received): 4487

When I visited Gdansk I didn't even realise how much had been rebuilt, it's really a first class reconstruction effort because it does look like it's been there for hundreds of years.
__________________
Thinking big is not a matter of cost, curiosity, or ideology. It may be a matter of survival.
Locke no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 01:44 PM   #31
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,255
Likes (Received): 3282

Many people still don't understand why Poland is so poor compared to the other countries and why cities are not so good looking as other cities in the Western Europe. We have to remember that all Polish big cities were completely destroyed and looked similar to this after WW2...



Poland was also excluded from Marshall Plan after WW2, so country didn't have enough funds to recover. There is still a lot to do.
__________________

Highcliff, GersonLDN liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 10th, 2012 at 01:49 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #32
uunxx
Registered User
 
uunxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,396
Likes (Received): 495

Poland was included in Marshall plan only political situation made it impossible to take money from smelly capitalists. Anyway Polish cities destroyed in the war look better than destroyed cities in the western Europe where nobody bothered with total reconstruction. Given political and financial situation at times of reconstruction it was just tremendous effort.
uunxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #33
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,991
Likes (Received): 4421

The Soviet Union which occupied Poland after WWII renounced compensation on behalf of Poland, claiming for ideological reasons it didn't need it. Poland had no say. Actually not all Polish cities were destroyed, Torun, Krakow, Lodz for example and Poznan, except for parts of old town was not in very bad shape. Warsaw and Gdansk were the worst from what I understand.
__________________
Happiness is a more effective means of measuring the success of a city or country than per capita income. Designing cities for people leads to greater happiness.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Highcliff liked this post
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #34
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,255
Likes (Received): 3282

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
The Soviet Union which occupied Poland after WWII renounced compensation on behalf of Poland, claiming for ideological reasons it didn't need it. Poland had no say. Actually not all Polish cities were destroyed, Torun, Krakow, Lodz for example and Poznan, except for parts of old town was not in very bad shape. Warsaw and Gdansk were the worst from what I understand.
As far as I know, from the list of Polish cities with population over 100k before WW2, only Lodz, Lwow (now Lviv, Ukraine), Krakow and Wilno (now Vilnius, Lithuania) weren't badly damaged.

"and Poznan, except for parts of old town was not in very bad shape" - The battle of Poznan (1945) left over half (90% in the city center) of Poznań severely damaged by artillery fire and the effects of infantry combat in the city blocks.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #35
Sienioslaw
grumpy slav
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gdanzig
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 155

Let's focus on Gdansk only, ok?

Time to introduce some mess into this thread - Could you belive that there are ruins of medieval tower, which was built in XV century, and survived all sick wars, even death of city in 1945, but fall during commie times?

Well that tower is 'Baszta pod zrębem'(germ. Trumpfturm), and was destroyed around 1970's and 1980's by lack of maintaince and conservation truly shocking for me...

Here is some archival photos:

1620:


1970's:


1975:


1982:


now:


And nobody wants to do anything about it excepts of project such as:
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Sienioslaw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #36
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,991
Likes (Received): 4421

good to see some of it still exists. Under Venice Charter this would not be a reconstruction, but a major repair job, as it was not deliberately destroyed, but collapsed from structural failure from poor maintenance. hope they "repair" this tower, would add to Gdansk's beauty.
__________________
Happiness is a more effective means of measuring the success of a city or country than per capita income. Designing cities for people leads to greater happiness.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Highcliff liked this post
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #37
RS_UK-PL
Registered User
 
RS_UK-PL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: R-L1029
Posts: 2,255
Likes (Received): 3282

St Mary's Gate (Brama Mariacka)

Before WW2



After WW2



2005



Now

__________________

Highcliff, Minsk liked this post

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; February 10th, 2012 at 07:15 PM.
RS_UK-PL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #38
Mr Bricks
Registered User
 
Mr Bricks's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 6,192
Likes (Received): 714

Quote:
Originally Posted by rychlik View Post
Kind of an ignorant comment. These were reconstructions using traditional methods. Everything had to be re-done and the artistry and dedication should be admired on its own.
Not really. If you can't understand what I mean you really need to pick up a few history and art books.
__________________
Helsinki
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Helsinki Projects

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Mr Bricks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 08:22 PM   #39
Urbanista1
Here and Now
 
Urbanista1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,991
Likes (Received): 4421

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bricks View Post
Not really. If you can't understand what I mean you really need to pick up a few history and art books.
These reconstructions are very rich in meaning, it shows Poland's dedication to rebuilt it's historic soul. Can you imagine if none of it was rebuilt, what this nation would look like. Authenticity is something only those few countries who have never suffered catastrophic wars or other non man-made disasters can be smug about. These reconstruction do bear the sign of their times, as well as the time periods they were trying to recreate. God forbid, but if Spain's magnificent Alhambra or the El Escorial were to be destroyed, wouldn't the Spanish people rebuild it? ofcourse they would, and they would use present-day technology just like the British did when rebuilding St. George's Hall in Windsor Castle. These would be as true to the original as possible. When you look at some reconstructions in Poland, they had to also reconcile the new communist ideology that was imposed on Poland post war, which meant some details were simplified and the overall look had a look more akin to socialist realism, but this didn't happen in all cases. Only some of the interiors give away the truth usually, but look at the palaces of Warsaw which had their interiors restored faithfully to the original despite the communsit contempt for the bourgeous, not to mention the royal castle in Warsaw which has spectacular interiors and this was not easy under communism. The latter makes these reconstructions even more special I feel. The reconstructions in Poland actually used traditional tools, methods and techniques that reconstruction today would not. Hundreds of ancient crafts from carpentry, stucco, stone masonry, glassmaking etc were revived and mastered to rebuild the old town in Warsaw and these techniques were used in Gdansk and in other cities too. The reconstruction of Elblag or Dresden today does not use ancient techniques and materials so much, except in unique cases and many rebuilt structures are retroversions (same footprint, height, proportion, silhouette maybe, but different materials and style), although I do like the overall effect in both cases, they are by no means as faithful a recontsruction as these cities in Poland.
__________________
Happiness is a more effective means of measuring the success of a city or country than per capita income. Designing cities for people leads to greater happiness.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Highcliff liked this post

Last edited by Urbanista1; February 10th, 2012 at 08:34 PM.
Urbanista1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2012, 08:37 PM   #40
Sienioslaw
grumpy slav
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gdanzig
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 155

Schlieffen House
I belive it's pretty rare situation in architecture when original facade of building, and his copy exist, but we have such situation in case of Schlieffen House building - builded in 1520, demolished(?) in 1820 due to a poor condition, but facade of building was saved&disassembled, next bought by king of Prussia and incorporated in Kavaliershaus in Berlin. It's not end of story, because during Gdansk reconstruction, they decided to rebuild Schlieffen house in his late-gothic form, so they measured in Berlin original facade and make 1:1 copy and then placed it on his 'old' place

Original facade in Berlin:


Copy in Gdansk:
__________________

Highcliff, kuzmiak liked this post
Sienioslaw no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
gdańsk, gdansk

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu