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Old August 24th, 2012, 11:00 PM   #41
Judge Roy Beam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
But can we refine then who are these East Prussians and are they the only ethnic group that left any archeological or historical landmarks of note, surely the Dutch left their mannerist architectural tradiitons in Gdansk which should be acknowledged, and what about the vernacular architcture of the Masurians and Kashubs.
The Gdansk area isn't included on the OP's map and is presumably outside the realm of both his and the Versailles Treaty's definition of East Prussia.

I agree nonetheless that Masurian and other architecture should be acknowledged as such whenever examples of the same appear here or elsewhere.

But then again, I was under the impression that making observations of that nature was already standard practice and applied to any and all threads on this forum.


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Originally Posted by Urbanista1 View Post
Late 19th century Prussian style architecture is not only cultural trace worth speaking about here nor the only culture period that is worth discussing in this area. If the author wants to make the case for a German speaking East Prussia, I have yet to hear a convincing case for it.
Nonsense.

Who built the Teutonic castles, the churches that sprang up around them, the walls (now mostly gone) surrounding both and the old towns within those walls?
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Old August 25th, 2012, 12:03 AM   #42
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Prussians were not Germans, many ethnic group resided in what is referred to as East Prussia here prior to Germanization and the influx of other peoples. Don't forget Germany is a very young state, since 1871 I believe. Prussians and Germans did share the same language and culture which merged even more during Hitler's reign of terror.
To discuss seriously on such a basis is ridiculous and senseless. Go and read something about the history of East-Prussia or read at least the posts of others who responded to your posts. Otherwise you’re just spamming!

And no Germans never were an ethnic homogenous group. Different Germanic tribes mixed up in the early Middle Ages with Gallo-Roman people, a fair share of Slavonic folks, Jews, some Baltic people and others. Later the unifying link at the development of the idea of a German Nation was the German language as the bearer of a common culture: header "Kulturnation" …

But why am I answering to your posts you’re stuck in your anti-German and Holy-Poland clichés anyway …
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Old August 25th, 2012, 12:05 AM   #43
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Allenstein/Olsztyn/Alštynas

current state - Poland















[/IMG]





























I am looking to our one of most powerful enemy castle with Lithuania flag

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Last edited by Depeched; August 25th, 2012 at 12:10 AM.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 01:13 AM   #44
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Nice to see some more pictures in here

Good job!
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Old August 25th, 2012, 01:22 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
To discuss seriously on such a basis is ridiculous and senseless. Go and read something about the history of East-Prussia or read at least the posts of others who responded to your posts. Otherwise you’re just spamming!

And no Germans never were an ethnic homogenous group. Different Germanic tribes mixed up in the early Middle Ages with Gallo-Roman people, a fair share of Slavonic folks, Jews, some Baltic people and others. Later the unifying link at the development of the idea of a German Nation was the German language as the bearer of a common culture: header "Kulturnation" …

But why am I answering to your posts you’re stuck in your anti-German and Holy-Poland clichés anyway …
ok, now be careful, I didn't call you names, you don't know me very well and I take exception at any suggestions that I am anti-anything. As for the Holy Poland mindset you accuse me of, every nation including Germany could be considered guilty of such ethno-centric self-glorification, but I'm not above criticizing Poland on the Polish sites very openly.

Regardless, I found your description of what the German nation is very edifying and refreshing. I'm getting to know the German nation more as I have the Polish nation over the last while. We are also a mix of people unified by a concept of Polishness and language of course.

I'm mostly taking offense at the closing of former threads on Polish Wilno and Polish Lwow while allowing threads like this one about German-influenced East Prussia to go forward.

The other issue is that although surviving architectural landmarks do underscore the Teutonic presence of this region, the history of this region is more complicated than that and deserves much more study and understanding. don't want the etymological roots of Prussia neatly subsumed under the term German without some elaboration of the history. Depeched mentioned that this was the most beautiful part of Germany built on former Balt and Slavonic lands and that's it....not so fast.

Originally Baltic tribes inhabited Prussia, who spoke their own a language, which was a Baltic language, Old Prussian that finally died out in 1800's I believe. This language is not be confused with the Germanic Low and High Prussian dialects of German. A lot of the place names in this region and river names are Old Prussian btw which have been slavicized or Lithuanized.

In the 13th century, these Baltic peoples were conquered by the crusading German Teutonic Knights, invited by Poland to christianize tbe pagans and subdue the Prussians since the crusading Knights of Dobrin hired earlier by the Polish dukes of Masovia didn't have much success. A considerable part of these lands was known as Chelmo Land part of a province ruled by Masozian dukes who were Polans that subdued other tribes. It was Conrad 1 of Masovia who enlisted the support of the Knights in subduing the Prussians and in return they were to get Chelmno Land as their fiefdom, but it became the base of their monastic state and later conquest of East Prussia when they turned on Poland, continuously conquering more lands. This is when the Germanization begins, but there was still considerable Polonization from the south as well as extant Prussian tribes, Pomeralians etc and a huge influx later of Dutch, Scottish etc during the Protestant Reformation mixed into the population base. The German Junkers did play a big part as the noble landowning class who led the Ostseidlung Christianization drive into Prussia.

The influence of the knights faded after the Polish-Lithuanian army defeated the Knights at the Battle of Grunwald in 1410 and after the HOLy Roman Emperor cut his support of the kinghts then in 1525 Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg became Duke of Prussia as a vassal of Poland.

From what I read, after the Second Peace of Thorn of 1466, Prussia was split into the western Royal Prussia, a province of Poland, and the eastern part, since 1525 called Duchy of Prussia, a fief of the Crown of Poland up to 1657. These were under the Polish crown until the union of Brandenburg and the Duchy of Prussia in 1618 that led to the proclamation of the Kingdom of Prussia in 1701. So for most of its history up to this point, this area was under Polish rule, but yes, heavy Germanic influence.

This area didn't become part of Germany until Bismarck unites the Germans in 1871and the rest is history, as they say.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 01:22 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
Allenstein/Olsztyn/Alštynas

current state - Poland

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/5773/imgp1870a.jpg
Well, well. Look at that little Samogitian scoundrel... 'Current state Poland' for Olsztyn?

And who said that Wilno won't be ours again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Po...Wilno_1919.jpg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20081022164659
http://www.dcstamps.com/wp-content/u...Wilno_1920.jpg

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Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
I am looking to our one of most powerful enemy castle with Lithuania flag

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/8434/imgp2004.jpg
Forza mighty Lietuva!
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Old August 25th, 2012, 01:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
And who said that Wilno won't be ours again...
Who needs Wilno, let's go for Moskwa once again.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 02:10 AM   #48
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Just for reasons of completion I'd like to post this map that I already tried to post before (which didn't work)

German Confederation (1815 - 1866)


Source: wikipedia

The parts of Prussia that were outside of the German Confedaration became part of it in the years 1848 to 1851. Hitler wasn't involved here.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #49
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An iconic and "famous" landmark of Kaliningrad:

The House of Soviets


Source: wikipedia
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Old August 25th, 2012, 04:28 AM   #50
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Pretty isn't it?

Today it is, of course, the most visible legacy of that city's postwar fate.

But the most profound transformation can no longer be seen.

According to the census of May 1939, Königsberg had a population of 372,164.

Upon surrendering to the Red Army in 1945 approximately 120,000 survivors remained (most having already fled or perished).

Disease, starvation and revenge then took their toll during the ensuing four years leaving only 20,000 to be expelled in 1949-50.

Wikipedia Link

War sucks.



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Last edited by Judge Roy Beam; August 25th, 2012 at 07:32 AM.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:08 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
Well, well. Look at that little Samogitian scoundrel... 'Current state Poland' for Olsztyn?

And who said that Wilno won't be ours again...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_army_in_Wilno_1919.jpg
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20081022164659
http://www.dcstamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Zeligowski_Wilno_1920.jpg



Forza mighty Lietuva!
You maybe forgot what it mean occupy other state capital, what just destroyed our relationships between our states about 20 years and later. Vilnius never was part of Poland, exept 1920 - 1939.

As I see, this thread reveal that poles have a lot of complexes about historical questions. And with this you have a lot of problems with all neighbors.

By the way, we can add a lot etnic maps, and so what?
There is a question about loyality to state. Look deeper. Do you think that mosurians and other slavonics very wanted to "back" for his Great mother Poland? I don't think so. What is showed plebiscite after WWI.
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Last edited by Depeched; August 25th, 2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:24 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Depeched View Post
You maybe forgot what it mean occupy other state capital, what just destroyed our relationships between our states about 20 years and later. Vilnius never was part of Poland, exept 1920 - 1939.

As I see, this thread reveal that poles have a lot of complexes about historical questions. And with this you have a lot of problems with all neighbors.
Occupy?

Source - Wikipedia (History of Vilnius)
"In the years 1920-1939 Poles made up 65% of the population, Jews 28%, 4% Russians, 1% Belarusians, 1% Lithuanians. Lithuanians therefore were a very marginal minority (less than 3% immediately after World War I, and less than 1% later in 1930s)."
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #53
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Occupy?

Source - Wikipedia (History of Vilnius)
"In the years 1920-1939 Poles made up 65% of the population, Jews 28%, 4% Russians, 1% Belarusians, 1% Lithuanians. Lithuanians therefore were a very marginal minority (less than 3% immediately after World War I, and less than 1% later in 1930s)."
Ethnic question is other thing. Question what was pole after WWI is olso intresting thing. But you could create other thread.
You shoud remember what was in 1918-1920.
What is more, This thread is not about Poland expansion ideas. We are talking about East Prussia.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:31 AM   #54
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Quote:
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Ethnic question is other thing.
You shoud remember what was in 1918-1920.
What is more, This thread is not about Poland expansion ideas. We are talking about East Prussia.
The 1916 German census of the Vilnius Region:
Poles — 58.0%
Lithuanians — 18.5%
Jews — 14.7%
Belarusians — 6.4%
Russians — 1.2%
Other — 1.2%
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #55
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Oh, come on, do you really want to steal Vilnius from Lithuania? Let's brag about Polishness of Wilno and then we'll talk about how Gdańsk is not German. If we want to be treated seriously we should have some limits.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:55 AM   #56
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Göttkendorf, after 1946 Gutkowo near Olsztyn, monument for German soldiers of WWI. Someone tried to knock down german notes.



Gothic church







Near church from all old crosses removed german notes, left only one where is written in polish. I can't imagine why?
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Old August 25th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #57
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Oh, come on, do you really want to steal Vilnius from Lithuania? Let's brag about Polishness of Wilno and then we'll talk about how Gdańsk is not German. If we want to be treated seriously we should have some limits.
I didn't start this topic

Poland didn't occupy Vilnius, Lviv, Hrodna, etc. because these cities were inhabited by a Polish majority.

BTW, today's Gdansk has nothing to do with Germany, you should already know that. Danzig died in 1945 (90% destroyed) and the reconstruction of Gdansk after the war was not tied to the city’s pre-war appearance, instead its politically motivated purpose was to rebuild an idealized pre-1793 state (when the city was under Polish crown)...

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Old August 25th, 2012, 12:18 PM   #58
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Territorial disputes and the arguments advanced by both sides can be incredibly fluid if nothing else.

Take the case of Gdansk/Danzig for instance. In 1918 the German government spoke of an overwhelming German majority residing therein while the Polish government countered by pointing out the city's long and rich history as an integral part of the Polish nation.

Meanwhile, with respect to Vilnius/Wilno the argument was reversed. Here it was the Polish government that spoke of an overwhelming Polish majority residing therein while it was left to the Lithuanian government to counter by pointing out the city's long history as an integral part of and indeed the historical capital of Lithuania.

Who's right, who's wrong? In the end, it all comes down to which side of the fence you're sitting
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Old August 25th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Roy Beam View Post
Territorial disputes and the arguments advanced by both sides can be incredibly fluid if nothing else.

Take the case of Gdansk/Danzig for instance. In 1918 the German government spoke of an overwhelming German majority residing therein while the Polish government countered by pointing out the city's long and rich history as an integral part of the Polish nation.

Meanwhile, with respect to Vilnius/Wilno the argument was reversed. Here it was the Polish government that spoke of an overwhelming Polish majority residing therein while it was left to the Lithuanian government to counter by pointing out the city's long history as an integral part of and indeed the historical capital of Lithuania.

Who's right, who's wrong? In the end, it all comes down to which side of the fence you're sitting


OT: Pre-war Danzig/Gdansk was completely destroyed during WW2 and today's Gdansk is a really crappy copy of what was there before It was a such a beautiful city...

Link: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1486666

Elbing/Elblag: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1515133

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 25th, 2012 at 12:42 PM.
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Old August 25th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #60
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Quote:
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Poland didn't occupy Vilnius, Lviv, Hrodna, etc. because these cities were inhabited by a Polish majority.
Sure, but while the other cities where indeed Polish, Vilnius is historical Lithuanian capital, so no wonder Lithuanians are sensitive about it. While the atitude of the whole thread is controvesial, I find it nitpicking to dispute one word "occupy" here (applies to Vilnius only, not the other cities).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
BTW, today's Gdansk has nothing to do with Germany, you should already know that. Danzig died in 1945 (90% destroyed) and the reconstruction of Gdansk after the war was not tied to the city’s pre-war appearance, instead its politically motivated purpose was to rebuild an idealized pre-1793 state (when the city was under Polish crown)...
I agree, you don't have to explain it to me.

Great photos BTW.
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