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Old August 27th, 2012, 10:12 PM   #121
Depeched
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja.centy View Post
So go ahead and post the pics of German heritage in Kaliningrad & Lithuania. Fullstop.
You can say what do you want, but will be photos, of course, also and from current Poland.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #122
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I can't wait then.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 04:33 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Marbur66 View Post
Wow, I come to this thread wanting to see some nice old architecture, and surprise surprise.....it's been hijacked by nationalists and retards. Talk about typical...
Well, the pictures are what really make this thread worthwhile.

As for the commentary, I've found some of it (from both sides) to be quite educational. But then again, I've always been rather good at tuning out the background noise when listening to, or engaging in, political debate
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Old August 28th, 2012, 12:15 PM   #124
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Actually, today's Elblag has nothing to do with East Prussia because the city was almost completely wiped out during WW2 (only 6 tenement houses out of over 300 survived the war).

For example Zamkowa Street view that you've posted previously...

Elbing


Elblag


I would love to see more reconstructions there, because most of the Old Town was built under Polish rule (so no problem with "rebuilding German cultural heritage", just focus on the pre-1772 architecture when city was second largest port in Kingdom of Poland) and there were so many fine examples of Dutch Mannerism and Gothic architecture (many demolished in 19th century). At the end of 18th century some streets were as beautiful as in Danzig/Gdansk.

Amazing 17th century Royal House reconstruction (many Polish kings like Wladyslaw IV, August II, Stanislaw Leszczynski had lived in this place)


Hercules Well (built in honour of John III Sobieski), Old Town City Hall (with latin inscription over the main entrance "Sigismundus regia sceptra gerens[...]"), entrance gates (Kowalska, Mlynska decorated with Polish and Royal Prussian coat of arms), etc. should have been reconstructed as well.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 28th, 2012 at 06:16 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #125
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Here are some pics from a Russian site (www.kng750.kanet.ru) about contemporary Kaliningrad and pre-war Königsberg:

1937


1949

www.kng750.kanet.ru

1939
"Königsberg: Der Blick von Süden auf das Schloss und den Kaiser-Wilhelm-Platz."
(View from south to the castle and to the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Platz)




2005
"Kaliningrad: Der Blick von der Brücke auf das Einkaufszentrum «Staraja Baschnia» ("Der alte Turm"). Zurzeit werden hier archäologische Ausgrabungen des Schlossfundaments durchgeführt."
(View from the bridge to the shopping mall «Staraja Baschnia» / “The Old Tower”)



1939
"Königsberg: Die evangelische Kathedrale wurde als befestigte Kirche auf der Kneiphofinsel gebaut. Die Ostwand ist 3 Meter dick. Der Bau der Kathedrale begann ungefähr im Jahre 1332."
(The Protestant cathedral was erected as a fortified church… The constructions works began in 1322)



2005
"Kaliningrad: Der Blick von der Brücke auf den Dom auf der Kantinsel."
(View from the bridge to the Cathedral on the Kant-island)



1939
"Königsberg: Der Blick auf den Kneiphof, den Dom und die alte Universität von der Holzbrücke aus."
(View to the Kneiphof, the Cathedral and to the old university – seen from the wooden bridge)



2005
"Kaliningrad: Der Blick von der Brücke auf den Dom auf der Kantinsel."

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Old August 28th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Actually, today's Elblag has nothing to do with East Prussia because the city was almost completely wiped out during WW2 (only 6 tenement houses out of over 300 survived the war).
Interesting how some cities were damaged more than others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I would love to see more reconstructions there, because most of the Old Town was built under Polish rule (so no problem with "rebuilding German cultural heritage..."
Yes, God forbid anything like that might happen


.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 03:39 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Judge Roy Beam View Post
Yes, God forbid anything like that might happen
Why we should try to wake up German nationalists like Karasek?

Probably you don't know, but during East Prussian rule most of the Old Town in Elbing/Elblag was modernised (decorations, ornaments removed from the houses) or demolished (like some amazing Gothic houses for example) and I have to say that I like pre-19th century architecture much more (especially Dutch Mannerism).

Kowalska Street before modernisation in 19th century:


Kowalska Street after modernisation:


Pre-1772 facades are very well documented, so I don't really know why they shouldn't be reconstructed (ah yes, for the sake of crappy modernism, retroversion).

BTW, Elblag Old Town in 1970s:


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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Probably you don't know, but during East Prussian rule most of the Old Town in Elbing/Elblag was modernised (decorations, ornaments removed from the houses) or demolished (like some amazing Gothic houses for example)...
You might not know it but "historiciste re-modelings" of buildings took place in many German cities in the 19th and early 20th century. East-Prussians cities weren't an exception here. And it wasn't only a German phenomenon.

...
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
You might not know it but "historiciste re-modelings" of buildings took place in many German cities in the 19th and early 20th century. East-Prussians cities weren't an exception here. And it wasn't only a German phenomenon.

...


Of course, I know that...But it doesn't mean that I liked this process. I'm not a big fan of modernism. The Royal Route in Gdansk/Danzig looks so much better with pre-1793 facades and I really believe that Elblag/Elbing would have been more beautiful with reconstructed pre-1772 tenement houses.

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 28th, 2012 at 05:46 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
Here are some pics from a Russian site (www.kng750.kanet.ru) about contemporary Kaliningrad and pre-war Königsberg:

1937


1949

www.kng750.kanet.ru

1939
"Königsberg: Der Blick von Süden auf das Schloss und den Kaiser-Wilhelm-Platz."
(View from south to the castle and to the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Platz)




2005
"Kaliningrad: Der Blick von der Brücke auf das Einkaufszentrum «Staraja Baschnia» ("Der alte Turm"). Zurzeit werden hier archäologische Ausgrabungen des Schlossfundaments durchgeführt."
(View from the bridge to the shopping mall «Staraja Baschnia» / “The Old Tower”)



1939
"Königsberg: Die evangelische Kathedrale wurde als befestigte Kirche auf der Kneiphofinsel gebaut. Die Ostwand ist 3 Meter dick. Der Bau der Kathedrale begann ungefähr im Jahre 1332."
(The Protestant cathedral was erected as a fortified church… The constructions works began in 1322)



2005
"Kaliningrad: Der Blick von der Brücke auf den Dom auf der Kantinsel."
(View from the bridge to the Cathedral on the Kant-island)



1939
"Königsberg: Der Blick auf den Kneiphof, den Dom und die alte Universität von der Holzbrücke aus."
(View to the Kneiphof, the Cathedral and to the old university – seen from the wooden bridge)



2005
"Kaliningrad: Der Blick von der Brücke auf den Dom auf der Kantinsel."

There are plans to rebuild the houses of the Kneiphof (around the Königsberger Dom). But I don't know if that's still going to happen

http://www.altstadt.com/

Also Kaliningrad wants to rebuild the former Königsberger Schloß, and at this subject I also don't know if that's still going to happen....
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Old August 28th, 2012, 06:16 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
The Royal Route in Gdansk/Danzig looks so much better with pre-1793 facades.
You have to consider that buildings on these old black and white pictures generally look a bit shabby. With the industrial revolution in the second half of the 19th century started also a huge air pollution that blackened many facades!

That's why restored historic towns in central Europe look better today than before WWII.

P.S.: I don't think at all that Karasek is a nationalist - quite the contrary. He's an expert, especially for Silesia and his knockledge differs sometimes from the - let's say - "official Polish truth" ...
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Old August 28th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JValjean View Post
You have to consider that buildings on these old black and white pictures generally look a bit shabby. With the industrial revolution in the second half of the 19th century started also a huge air pollution that blackened many facades!

That's why restored historic towns in central Europe look better today than before WWII.
Not only that. Europeans just started process of modernisation, which has been associated with removing ornaments, simplification, dividing tenement houses into flats, etc. Please compare tenement houses on both sides of the Golden House...

Danzig/Gdansk before WW2 (most ornaments removed from neighbouring tenement houses in 19th century)


Danzig/Gdansk after WW2


Now (rebuilt to the pre-1793 state)


It was the same with Elbing/Elblag. However on a larger scale and many of Gothic or Mannerist structures have been just demolished.

Another example of terrible modernisation from 19th century in Elbing/Elblag...


And street view before reckless demolition (most of the buildings date back to 16-18th century)

Last edited by RS_UK-PL; August 28th, 2012 at 10:49 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReconstructer View Post
There are plans to rebuild the houses of the Kneiphof (around the Königsberger Dom). But I don't know if that's still going to happen

http://www.altstadt.com/

Also Kaliningrad wants to rebuild the former Königsberger Schloß, and at this subject I also don't know if that's still going to happen....
Speaking of which...





Of course, I'm not exactly holding my breath on this, but damn!
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Old August 29th, 2012, 02:56 AM   #134
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Beautiful shots



Elbing/Elblag 1945




More: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1515133
Poles did a great job there, in this particular city. In Klaipėda, commie *******s destroyed all the pretty, large churches (10) and only three tiny, like in a village, old churches, survive to our days... The last graceful church of historical Memel - Anglican church, was destroyed in 1982... Bastards

As an example...
Anglican church, built 1863, destroyed 1982.

http://uostas.info/miestas/pasimatymai/miestaszmones/138-anglikonubanycia.html

I just...

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Old August 29th, 2012, 03:29 AM   #135
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AFAIR, we were talking about Prussian tolerancy.
Three local Lithuanians, who were declaring Protestant faith, established a Lithuanian language school in Vilna in 1539. Sigismund I the Old threatened them with death, they were sentenced to die in absentia later, so they escaped to Koenigsberg and established the University there instead of Vilnius. The cathedral of Lithuanian language was soon opened in the University. The gravestone of Rapalionis in the Cathedral of Koenigsberg in the most prestigious place near the kings, was written in Lithuanian language.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 04:22 AM   #136
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K. Henenberger, 1684, Prussia Vetus.
Full map with remaining names of the ancient lands and tribes: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv...zoom.r=.langEN

Fragments. Kleipėda on Curonian lands, bordering Samogitia.


Barta.


Ramovė.


Tvangstė.



Jaustytė.


This is where Lithuania is.




One of the oldest border in Continental Europe, unchanged from 1423.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 09:19 AM   #137
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Here's map of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland (with capital in Krakow), Grand Duchy of Lithuania (with capital in Vilnius), fiefs and dependencies. As I wrote before, in 15-18th century Royal Prussia was a part of Kingdom of Poland (cities like Elbing/Elblag, Danzig/Gdansk were Polish between 1454/1466-1772/1793) and Ducal Prussia (1525-1657) was a fief of the Crown.

For Elbing/Elblag and Danzig/Gdansk these were times of prosperity, so that's why in my opinion they should be rebuilt to reflect this.

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Old August 29th, 2012, 10:39 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
I would love to see more reconstructions there, because most of the Old Town was built under Polish rule (so no problem with "rebuilding German cultural heritage..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS_UK-PL View Post
Why we should try to wake up German nationalists like Karasek?
It makes me a German nationalist if I say that the international trading city Gdanzig didn't became rich because of the "Polish rule", but because of the access to the Polish market? And that the wealth of the Renaissance era can hardly be considered Polish when the city republic was almost completely independent, had only a Polish minority, and architecture and culture are closely linked to the other regions of the Hanseatic League, but not to Poland? I'm not even saying that the city was German!
And I'm also not the one who constantly brings up national categories here, and in other threads, and prefers one era of the city over the other.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 11:16 AM   #139
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It makes me a German nationalist if I say that the international trading city Gdanzig didn't became rich because of the "Polish rule", but because of the access to the Polish market? And that the wealth of the Renaissance era can hardly be considered Polish when the city republic was almost completely independent, had only a Polish minority, and architecture and culture are closely linked to the other regions of the Hanseatic League, but not to Poland? I'm not even saying that the city was German!
And I'm also not the one who constantly brings up national categories here, and in other threads, and prefers one era of the city over the other.
Zamosc was designed and built in accordance with the Italian theories of the "ideal town," on the basis of a plan of Bernardo Morando. Would you say it's not a Polish city?

Danzig/Gdansk and Elbing/Elblag were very international cities and encouraged Flemish-Dutch, German, etc. immigration to the Slavic lands because of the economic growth. However, people who spoke German like Johannes Hevelius considered themselves as citizens of the Polish world (civis Orbis Poloniae).
That's why we have so many examples of Polish symbols in these cities, that's why for example in Elbing/Elblag port first Polish galleon "Smok" was built, etc. These cities weren't Polish in today's, nationalistic meaning...They were more like today's London with mish-mash of ethnic groups.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 11:58 AM   #140
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It seems that you're denying that those cities - together with Königsberg - had over centuries a vast German-speaking majority.

On wikipedia there's a List_of_mayors_of_Danzig from 1342 to 1939

All the names on this list can be recognized as German names. That doesn't minimize the role of Poland at the positive development of Danzig under Polish rule.
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