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Old December 16th, 2015, 03:58 PM   #121
alexandru.mircea
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^ I think that map of the of extended Paris metro area is based, on its Southern reach, on the reach of regional trains that go down as much as northern Burgundy or northern Centre. But I think Rouen (to the West) has a much better case for being considered an extension of the Paris metro than Orléans, it's got much more of an consistent and constant exchange with it IMO.
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Old December 16th, 2015, 04:09 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
^ I think that map of the of extended Paris metro area is based, on its Southern reach, on the reach of regional trains that go down as much as northern Burgundy or northern Centre. But I think Rouen (to the West) has a much better case for being considered an extension of the Paris metro than Orléans, it's got much more of an consistent and constant exchange with it IMO.

Yes to be honest my understanding of the Paris metro area and how far it reaches/which direction it reaches is fairly limited so I was taking an educated guess but thanks for your input.

Edit - If I take out Orleans and add in Eure and Seine-Martime NUTS3 regions to the North West instead - you get to a total population of 15,048,279 and a GDP of 705bn EUR but this is now an area covering 36,070 km2 which is way too big.

I was having another slow news day at work today so extended these to include a few other EU metro areas - again these will need to be tweaked to make them more accurate but interesting food for thought nonetheless... (apologies if the data is difficult to read and I couldn't include Stockholm on the map - too far North)



Western Europe Metro Areas
by Stephen Hetherington, on Flickr
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Old December 17th, 2015, 06:48 PM   #123
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It's indeed 'Rhein-Ruhr' and 'Randstad' so the red squiggles tell the truth!
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Old December 17th, 2015, 07:55 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by julesstoop View Post
It's indeed 'Rhein-Ruhr' and 'Randstad' so the red squiggles tell the truth!
Haha - yep, I created the table in about 30 seconds quality control was non-existent.
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Old December 17th, 2015, 11:47 PM   #125
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How about Rhône-Alpes? GDP is around 200 000 (millions) Euros now.. Côte d'Azur is 130 000..
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Old December 17th, 2015, 11:51 PM   #126
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GDP - World's Metro Areas

Alsace 53 632
Aquitaine90 796
Auvergne 33 756
Bourgogne 42 731
Bretagne 83 407
Centre 67 122
Champagne-Ardenne 37 113
Corse8 173
Franche-Comté28 593
Ile-de-France 612 323
Languedoc-Roussillon63 944
Limousin 17 307
Lorraine 56 346
Midi-Pyrénées 79 855
Nord-Pas-de-Calais103 226
Basse-Normandie 36 370
Haute-Normandie49 815
Pays de la Loire 101 229
Picardie 45 681
Poitou-Charentes45 016
Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur 142 358
Rhône-Alpes 196 995
France de province1 383 464
France métropolitaine1 995 786
Guadeloupe8 033
Martinique8 352
Guyane3 806
La Réunion16 319
DOM36 510
France (=Métropole+Dom) 2 032 297
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Old December 18th, 2015, 01:00 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Fro7en View Post
How about Rhône-Alpes? GDP is around 200 000 (millions) Euros now.. Côte d'Azur is 130 000..
No problem

Updates:

I have added Rhône-Alpes - you were right it is roughly 200m but covers a vast area so is probably not a functional metro area as I have shown it on the map.

I looked at Côte d'Azur if I take the NUTS3 regions (Gard, Herault, Alpes-Maritimes, Bouches-du-Rhone and Var) from Montpellier to Monaco along the coast - the population is 7,727,676 with a combined GDP of 173bn and per capita GDP of 22,504 EUR.

I have edited Paris to exude the Orleans area but to include the areas to the North towards Rouen.

I felt I was being stingy with Frankfurt so have extended it slightly to the South.

I had Madrid as stupidly big and realized the surrounding areas were contributing very little population or GDP so have trimmed it, same with the inland part of Barcelona.

I have added Dublin, Prague, Warsaw, Vienna-Bratislava and Brussels-Antwerp.

I have added per-capita GDP on the table - One interesting point here is that the Inner West London per capita GDP is 185,000 EUR!!

(Total GDP data in the table is in millions)




European Metro Area Comparison
by Stephen Hetherington, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old December 18th, 2015, 03:05 PM   #128
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Nice!
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Old December 18th, 2015, 03:37 PM   #129
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Just one question, you designed the London metro as reaching the surroundings of Southampton and even a bit further away, but you left the city of Southampton out? If yes, why's that?
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Old December 18th, 2015, 03:46 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
Just one question, you designed the London metro as reaching the surroundings of Southampton and even a bit further away, but you left the city of Southampton out? If yes, why's that?
I am limited by the NUTS3 level of geography here - the bit stretching down to Southampton is the county of Hampshire - whilst the Northern half of this county is definitely in London's metro area - places like Aldershot and Baisingstoke are prime London commuter territory - the Southern parts are probably a little too far, I personally don't consider Portsmouth and Southampton part of London's metro area - if I did include them it would increase the GDP by 15bn EUR but I think that is a bit of a stretch. In an ideal world I could split this area in two and exclude the Southern half. Equally, if I include them I would also have to include Cambridge which would boost it by 25bn on its own but again, it's a bit too far in my opinion.

That's the primary limitation of what I've done, Eurostat only goes down so far before I have to use individual country statistics which, as interesting as it would be, would take me a few weeks - although I could probably get a job at Brookings or Oxford Economics if I did bother!
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Old December 18th, 2015, 07:52 PM   #131
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IBGE released today the 2013 GDP for all the 5,600 municipalities in Brazil. I'll added them up forming the metro areas, convert to USD using the IMF/World Bank average exchange rates for that year, and then post together with the US ones as I do every year since 2008.
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Old December 18th, 2015, 10:22 PM   #132
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To me the metro areas seem to be much too generous, not only in the case of London and Paris, but especially in the case of Lyon.

For Germany you can use these definitions, as the prealpine rural areas aren't really part of Munich anymore:

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Old December 19th, 2015, 12:03 AM   #133
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To me the metro areas seem to be much too generous, not only in the case of London and Paris, but especially in the case of Lyon.

For Germany you can use these definitions, as the prealpine rural areas aren't really part of Munich anymore:

To be honest Chris, it wasn't intended to be an academic study into the precise definition of the metro areas.

As for Germany looking at your maps, it seems like I've got Berlin, Frankfurt and Rhine-Ruhr pretty much right and been slightly generous to the South for Munich.

Regarding your point on London - how would you better define London using NUTS3 geography? I've gone with the rule that if a decent chunk of the NUTS3 region falls within the metro area then I have included the whole thing.

The problem is that NUTS3 geographies are completely inconsistent across borders, for example if you look at Spain, the areas of each geography are huge, whereas for Germany, it is split into very small areas - That vast swathes for Barcelona and Stockholm include only 3 NUTS regions whereas the relatively small Rhine-Ruhr area is made up of about 15 - You either end up under representing an area or over representing, I went for over as the peripheral regions don't really affect the GDP or the population data.

As for Rhone-Alpes, I put that in at the request of Frozen and used the official definition of this region - I personally don't consider it a true metro area.

Last edited by Blackpool88; December 19th, 2015 at 12:10 AM.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 02:38 PM   #134
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The Rhône Alpes area is highly industrialised and densely populated for France though.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 03:30 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackpool88 View Post
To be honest Chris, it wasn't intended to be an academic study into the precise definition of the metro areas.

As for Germany looking at your maps, it seems like I've got Berlin, Frankfurt and Rhine-Ruhr pretty much right and been slightly generous to the South for Munich.

Regarding your point on London - how would you better define London using NUTS3 geography? I've gone with the rule that if a decent chunk of the NUTS3 region falls within the metro area then I have included the whole thing.

The problem is that NUTS3 geographies are completely inconsistent across borders, for example if you look at Spain, the areas of each geography are huge, whereas for Germany, it is split into very small areas - That vast swathes for Barcelona and Stockholm include only 3 NUTS regions whereas the relatively small Rhine-Ruhr area is made up of about 15 - You either end up under representing an area or over representing, I went for over as the peripheral regions don't really affect the GDP or the population data.

As for Rhone-Alpes, I put that in at the request of Frozen and used the official definition of this region - I personally don't consider it a true metro area.
My definitions aren't scientific as well as there simply aren't any official definitions for metropolitan areas in Germany.

Concerning London, I would exclude some peripheral areas. Paris in my opinion is represented the best way by using the Ile de France region. One might make a point of including Oise, but I wouldn't go further than that:




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The Rhône Alpes area is highly industrialised and densely populated for France though.
Rhone Alpes might be highly industrialized, but at 145 inh/km² it is rather sparsely populated. It is definitely too sparsely populated to consider it as one metropolitan area.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 06:54 PM   #136
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Maybe so. Do you know what the gdp of the Lyon metropole is?
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Old December 19th, 2015, 09:42 PM   #137
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My definitions aren't scientific as well as there simply aren't any official definitions for metropolitan areas in Germany.

Concerning London, I would exclude some peripheral areas. Paris in my opinion is represented the best way by using the Ile de France region. One might make a point of including Oise, but I wouldn't go further than that:






Rhone Alpes might be highly industrialized, but at 145 inh/km² it is rather sparsely populated. It is definitely too sparsely populated to consider it as one metropolitan area.
That graphic you showed is more arbitrary than mine, you exclude Brighton, Hove etc, which have a very strong relationship with London yet include Kent all the way to Dover, which doesn't have much in common.

In terms Paris, I agree. I had included the Orleans NUTS area but was challenged by a forumer to include the Rouen region which I did. If you read the entire thread you could possibly understand some of its evolution.

I have created some graphics at local authority level showing commuter rates and population at each percentage threshold for London which I will post on Monday.

To call me out and then post something like that as your repost seems slightly hypocritical at best and completely wrong at worst.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 10:24 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackpool88 View Post
That graphic you showed is more arbitrary than mine, you exclude Brighton, Hove etc, which have a very strong relationship with London yet include Kent all the way to Dover, which doesn't have much in common.

In terms Paris, I agree. I had included the Orleans NUTS area but was challenged by a forumer to include the Rouen region which I did. If you read the entire thread you could possibly understand some of its evolution.

I have created some graphics at local authority level showing commuter rates and population at each percentage threshold for London which I will post on Monday.

To call me out and then post something like that as your repost seems slightly hypocritical at best and completely wrong at worst.
There is lots of greenery and agricultural land that separate Brighton/Hove from London and it is simply too far away. Regarding Kent, as you already said the NUTS 3 regions are a bit oddly shaped to form the London area perfectly, so just treat the faraway areas as a compensation for those areas that actually are in the London area but are not included in my definition.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 03:15 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Chrissib View Post
There is lots of greenery and agricultural land that separate Brighton/Hove from London and it is simply too far away. Regarding Kent, as you already said the NUTS 3 regions are a bit oddly shaped to form the London area perfectly, so just treat the faraway areas as a compensation for those areas that actually are in the London area but are not included in my definition.
Chris - I just read my response again and it sounded like I was being arsey, I didn't mean to be I welcome the input.

I do think that on that map you have under-counted London though. I think that my definition is fairly accurate in terms of the GLA metro area definition.

Last edited by Blackpool88; December 20th, 2015 at 10:27 PM.
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Old December 20th, 2015, 03:28 PM   #140
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Blackpool, I loved your definitions. I, for one, prefer wider over very strict ones. However, some seemed way to big to me (the Rhone one). I also believe your first definition on Paris (30,000 km²) are more reasonable than the second one.

BTW, what was the average EUR/USD conversion for 2012?
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