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Old May 10th, 2007, 05:30 PM   #61
ikrys
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It looks like!
Generaly most of roads are in preparing right now, are designed with that space, for example -7m (2x3,5m) for future lanes +4m of regular space and it gives 11meters for now, Iam talking about expresways and motorways as well -2x2 with lefted space for future 2x3,
Its a new idea to fix future problems with groving trafic
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Old May 11th, 2007, 12:00 AM   #62
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Very good! We see here in The Netherlands, that they haven't looked to the future, and now some motorways are impossible to widen.
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Old May 11th, 2007, 04:32 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inz_Krys View Post
Its a new idea to fix future problems with groving trafic
It's not that new

In Italy some highway's stretches have been built with this system: e.g. the branch from Modena to Verona of 'Brennero highway' (A22) built in '70s I think
Unfortunately traffic on that highway increased to a congestion level since 20 years at least, but they didn't build the 3d lane yet even if they left the space just to make it easier

Just recently they decided to upgrade the highway to a 3 lanes one
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Old May 15th, 2007, 07:40 PM   #64
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http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...&t=h&z=15&om=1

here is a link to the Polish Russian Border and it shows what was a German Autobahn from the 1930's. There is only one carriageway left. You can follow it all the way to Kallingrad (Königsberg) in Russia. I think it's crazy. It's got loads of private access onto it now and normal T junctions.
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Old May 16th, 2007, 12:00 PM   #65
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There are few motorways under construction right now. The last part of A4 towards the border with Germany (50 km), A4 from Krakow to Szarów (20km ) , A1 from Gdansk to Grudziadz (90km) , A1 Sosnica - Belk (15.5 km)

Few more are under bidding right now. But it's just not enough. It's going way to slow
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Old May 21st, 2007, 08:30 AM   #66
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Poles vote in referendum on controversial highway

WARSAW, May 20, 2007 (AFP) - Residents of the Bialystok region of northeastern Poland were voting on Sunday in a referendum on a plan to build a highway through virgin forest that is strongly opposed by the European Union.

The project in the Rospuda Valley has been taken to the European Court of Justice by the European Commission, which supports the case of environmental groups that it will destroy the area's fragile ecosystem.

The road is backed by the major political parties, and the ruling conservatives gathered the necessary 50,000 signatures required by law for the referendum to be held.

A recent opinion poll showed that 88 percent of locals want the road, in particular the 17,000 inhabitants of the town of Augustow, who will be bypassed by thousands of trucks which currently pass through their streets.

The regional head of the ruling Law and Justice Party, Mariusz Kaminski, told AFP his party hoped the referendum result would help sway the opinion of the European Court of Justice.

The planned stretch of highway near the Lithuanian border is part of a corridor called the Via Baltica, linking Warsaw with the three Baltic states.

Opponents of the Augustow bypass were given a boost last month when a Polish administrative court annulled the construction permit, obliging the government to consider the more costly option of putting part of the road in a tunnel.
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Old June 1st, 2007, 04:08 AM   #67
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Referendum Over Highway Through Rare Peat Bog in Poland Ruled Invalid

May 21, 2007 — By Associated Press

WARSAW -- A referendum on whether to build a highway through a rare peat bog protected by European Union habitat laws failed to muster the necessary voter turnout and has been declared invalid, election officials said Monday.

Turnout for the local referendum on the planned construction of a 500-meter (yard) stretch of highway through the Rospuda River valley was only 21.56 percent, said Bogumila Karniewicz, deputy head of the referendum commission in nearby Bialystok, northeastern Poland.

Ninety-three percent of voters backed the highway's construction, but turnout was far short of the 30-percent threshold needed for the referendum to be valid, Karniewicz said.

The result deals a blow to Poland's ruling Law and Justice party, which sponsored the referendum in an attempt to strengthen its hand in its dispute with the European Commission over the project.

The commission has taken Poland to Europe's top court to prevent the construction of the highway.

While even a valid result would have no legal impact on the court's ruling, Poland's government had hoped to use strong popular backing from the referendum to bolster its case before the court.

Poland's government says the road is needed to relieve heavy truck traffic clogging the nearby town of Augustow and that it would provide an economic boost to a rapidly developing region.

Opponents say building the highway across the habitat of rare plants and animals would wreak havoc with ecosystems and destroy the area's pristine beauty.

Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski has said that caving in to pressure would be a bad precedent for the whole project to build some 7,000 kilometers (4,000 miles) of badly needed highways in Poland by the year 2020.

No heavy equipment is at the site and construction has been temporarily halted to respect a ban on disturbing the peace from March to July, when storks and other birds lay their eggs.

Source: Associated Press
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 04:31 PM   #68
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Ninety-three percent of voters backed the highway's construction
Enough support to build this road i think.

One must see this from the local point of view, Eastern Poland always has been the poorer part of the country, and economic development will be welcome here, i think.
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Old June 2nd, 2007, 09:27 PM   #69
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maybe

pictures taken (27-05-2007) by @vampi_r from Forum of Polish Skyscrapers


north view, southern part of forest, We can see the N2000 over there
and there are no road works now until september2007 becouse of bird breed period



Augustow bypass
by vampi_r
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Old June 4th, 2007, 07:59 AM   #70
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Very sad do destroy the nature for a highway. Cant they just build around it.
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Old June 4th, 2007, 03:39 PM   #71
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Really - why they don't built it as proposed in alternative option? OK, I imagine - it might slow it down and EU money will be lost... If there is any.

Balts are interested in this road - this is our "life road" to Western Europe. But environmental interests are very important too.
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Old June 4th, 2007, 11:01 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatis View Post
Really - why they don't built it as proposed in alternative option? OK, I imagine - it might slow it down and EU money will be lost... If there is any.
no!! all is for polish money (KFD-country fund for Roads from oil and petrol taxes)
GDDKiA variant of the Augustow bypass have been preparing since 1992 I gues
In 1992 there were now N2000 in Rospuda Valley..for designers there were just a trees and river..oh, and a peat bog as well
Since 2004 Poland is in EU,and got N2000 from this time....All procedures where in progress for this time, I mean 2004(diferent from EU procedures)
Now Poland has money for works,but the European Comision wants to back us to begin of the proces and do all in accordance with EU law (procedures)
If we stop built that bypass, people in this town will have to wait minimum 5-years for other road

Quote:
Balts are interested in this road - this is our "life road" to Western Europe. But environmental interests are very important too.
Via Baltica is under prepar,but there is no variant chosen so far
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Old June 4th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #73
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but the European Comision wants to back us to begin of the proces and do all in accordance with EU law (procedures)
Those procedures suck. We have them for years, and by the time you'll finally through such a procedure, the plans are outdated. Example of this is the Dutch A2 between Utrecht and Amsterdam, now 2x3 lanes, would be widened to 2x4, but procedures takes so much time, they decided to widen to 2x5 lanes at once. Same counts futher south, but then from 2x2 lanes tot 2x4 lanes.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 02:34 PM   #74
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In 1992 there were now N2000 in Rospuda Valley..for designers there were just a trees and river..oh, and a peat bog as well
Since 2004 Poland is in EU,and got N2000 from this time....All procedures where in progress for this time, I mean 2004(diferent from EU procedures)
Now Poland has money for works,but the European Comision wants to back us to begin of the proces and do all in accordance with EU law (procedures)
Sorry, I am "old bureaucrat" who was involved to some extent in Natura 2000 site selection in Latvia. Natura 2000 sites should protect at least 10% of protected biotopes of each kind represented in respective country - if to put it simply. When planning Natura 2000 site network in Poland your bureaucrats had a possibility to compare their list with the plans of road builders. If the road touches proposed Natura 2000 site there is done one of the two: a) road project is changed. b) bureaucrats quickly find another site with similar value to protect and don't include the project site in Natura 2000 site.

In a case a) Brussels never hear about such problem, road builders get a time and design the road elsewhere (it takes 1 - 2 years) and nature values are protected. Project comes a bit slower but this is better than now.

In a case b) Brussels never hear about such problem, nature values are protected (elsewhere) and road is built.

OK, environment bureaucrats did not contact road bureaucrats. Natura 2000 site was approved for Rospuda valley and it came as surprise for road builders. At that moment (if Poland entered in EU in a honest way - and I am sure it did - it had to happen at very latest in 2003) road builders had to understand harsh reality and as fast as possible start to design road in another site. Natura 2000 site is holy cow and better don't touch it. Here in Riga Natura 2000 site stopped 1 billion EUR port development project.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 07:44 PM   #75
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Quote:
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Sorry, I am "old bureaucrat" who was involved to some extent in Natura 2000 site selection in Latvia. Natura 2000 sites should protect at least 10% of protected biotopes of each kind represented in respective country - if to put it simply. When planning Natura 2000 site network in Poland your bureaucrats had a possibility to compare their list with the plans of road builders. If the road touches proposed Natura 2000 site there is done one of the two: a) road project is changed. b) bureaucrats quickly find another site with similar value to protect and don't include the project site in Natura 2000 site.

I dont know many facts about that case but..
Governmental proposal of N2000 network sent (3,7% of the countrys area)
by the Polish Ministry of Enviromental to the European Commission in may 2004 doesnt include Rospuda Valley and many others.
The list was trown open for public cosultation for the period of 5 days
However none of the numerous comments to the list was taken into account
Environmental created SHADOW LIST in 2004 and sent to EC in 12.2004 (5-10% of the countrys area)I gues -proposal necessary for the good functioning of N2000 network, it included Rospuda valley(Augustow Forest)
Quote:
OK, environment bureaucrats did not contact road bureaucrats. Natura 2000 site was approved for Rospuda valley and it came as surprise for road builders. At that moment (if Poland entered in EU in a honest way - and I am sure it did - it had to happen at very latest in 2003) road builders had to understand harsh reality and as fast as possible start to design road in another site. Natura 2000 site is holy cow and better don't touch it. Here in Riga Natura 2000 site stopped 1 billion EUR port development project.
In Poland many of existing projects are backed to the chosing variants perod,bicouse of the shadow list, for example bypass of my familiar city-Lublin and many many others
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Old June 5th, 2007, 07:49 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
Those procedures suck. We have them for years, and by the time you'll finally through such a procedure, the plans are outdated. Example of this is the Dutch A2 between Utrecht and Amsterdam, now 2x3 lanes, would be widened to 2x4, but procedures takes so much time, they decided to widen to 2x5 lanes at once. Same counts futher south, but then from 2x2 lanes tot 2x4 lanes.
Good solution is to built Augustow bypass in route of Viabaltica(2x2 or 2x3) which is just in prepare(chosing variants period),and just live that outdated variant(1x2) trough N2000
Im sure that the Commission stop that built in September after the "bird breed period"
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Old June 5th, 2007, 08:02 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris1491 View Post
Those procedures suck. We have them for years, and by the time you'll finally through such a procedure, the plans are outdated. Example of this is the Dutch A2 between Utrecht and Amsterdam, now 2x3 lanes, would be widened to 2x4, but procedures takes so much time, they decided to widen to 2x5 lanes at once. Same counts futher south, but then from 2x2 lanes tot 2x4 lanes.
Things were so much better under Hitler, we didn't have those procedures or democracy. Just kill the people who live next to these roads.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 08:18 PM   #78
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Things were so much better under Hitler, we didn't have those procedures or democracy. Just kill the people who live next to these roads.
What a stupid comment
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Old June 5th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #79
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Your criticism on these procedures is stupid In your warped vision you think that it is your democratic right to ruin the place where other people, or wildlife, live. You moan on end about a lack of motorways whilst you live in a country with a ridiculous amount of motorways. Just because you're too lazy and drive a car, people should move and live somewhere else.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #80
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No, i said the procedures are ridicilously long. They should argue it is okay or not okay to build a road in a decent amount of time, not years and years.
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