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Old February 10th, 2009, 05:27 AM   #21
Svartmetall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyronin View Post
Now you're just arguing semantics. There is no absolute definition of how many stories a low-rise or mid-rise is (though I'd consider the mostly 4-storey buildings seen in the picture to be of the former). In any event, they are not high-rises, and the point still stands. But here's another picture of the same idea, with what are obviously low-rises:
True, I am arguing semantics but there is a reason for this.

I'm actually a huge fan of mid-rise as it offers more flexibility and is far more family friendly than pure high-rise neighbourhoods. It's one reason that I like European cities so much, the ubiquitous mid-rise that makes up their suburban neighbourhoods. It's a good trade-off between the practicality of high-rise and the livability of low-rise.

As for terraced housing like you show in the picture, it's okay. Having grown up in Britain I'm used to victorian terraces everywhere and I can't say I prefer them to mid-rise apartment blocks overall. Sure, they offer privacy but they can cause the exact same social/environmental problems seen with single story sprawl.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 07:58 AM   #22
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Good to hear that people's experience of living in high-rises is generally positive. Access to amenities and services nearby make a huge difference. I think the future of housing in most cities across the globe is high-density (which includes low-rise and mid-rise blocks).

High-rise living is definitely a hard sell to families though, especially in Britain where most people's experience of housing is relatively low-rise and most families aspire to a garden for their kids to play in.

How do people feel about paying service charges? They are obviously necessary, but the costs seem to vary enormously from one building to another. I wish builders and architects would think more carefully about how they can minimise service charges wherever possible.
Highrises in London are generally council flats, and ugly. They have a stigma.

I don't mind the service charge. It's cheaper than the rediculous maintenance time/cost and utility costs house-owners spend.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:02 PM   #23
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"In any urban area, no matter how dense, keep the majority of buildings four storeys high or less. It is possible that certain buildings should exceed this limit, but they should never be buildings for human habitation."

Thats rather silly, just as the "skyscraper-only" crowd is or the pro-suburban detached-house-only crowd is. In reality, people have differing tastes - some will enjoy low-rise apartments, some high-rises, some rowhouses, or detached-houses. As such, it is economically viable to have a mixture of all of the above. And for "maximum livability" for as many people as possible, a city should include a diverse range of housing options that reflect our diverse tastes.
Absolutely agree.

On another note, I don't believe that the isolation reasoning behind the four-story argument holds at all.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #24
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Highrises have a host of issues that I am sure everyone here has mentioned so far. (Highrises are hard to service with fire protection, cast large shadows, take more elevator capacities and so on)

Midrise and even lowrise can accomodate densities and development that breed healthy neighbourhoods. I hate to flog a dead horse but Paris and London both manage to be great centers with out relying on highrise. Few places outside of the large cities of Asia really need to be built out as highrise.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:39 PM   #25
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this christopher alexander guy is a dinosaur. he makes sense from an aesthetic viewpoint, but like some other ivory tower theorists, his theories are detached from modern day construction methods and labor costs.

the differences between midrise and highrise pale in comparison to the overall density, building typology, and availability of transit. furthermore, in order to attain density and its efficiencies, many cooling climates are better suited to highrises. the streetwalls of paris and london may be aesthetically appealing, but they also trap heat. it's fine in temperate heating climates, but it's hell in other places.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:45 PM   #26
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I'm a highrise dweller and apartment owner. I mostly like it. I'll address a few points:

1. Access to open/green space. This is a matter of local planning. In my neighbourhood, the highrises are chequerboarded with small public parks and playgrounds. There is a tennis court, basketball court, baseball diamond, and a small football field, as well as two play areas for little children, with slides, swings, monkey bars, etc. These are all very popular and on any evening in good weather you can see people of all ages and races in the parks (old men on the benches, parents watching their little ones, teenagers playing basketball, etc.).

Note that if the same number of dwelling units were built in this neighbourhood as lowrise structures, we wouldn't have space for the little parks within the equivalent land area. I would see that as a real loss.

Whether the ample neighbourhoods provision of play areas makes a highrise okay for kids is something hard for me to judge, since I don't have kids, and I spent my childhood in a suburb (probably the best time to live in a low-density NA-style suburb is from age five to twelve). Street traffic would seem to me to be the biggest hazard, and that's endemic to larger communities, regardless of highrise/midrise.

2. If you like gardening, or garage tinkering, or woodwork, or other practical but "messy" hobbies, then any sort of apartment living has some real drawbacks. In my neighbourhoods, there is a community garden three blocks away, where you can obtain a small plot for a nominal fee, but I imagine that can't be nearly as satisfactory as having your own backyard.

Myself, I like not having to mow any damned lawn, so I like apartment living partly for that reason.

3. Noise. In my experience highrises do not immunize you from street noise. I find that sound carries a considerable distance and there are no barriers to prevent it from reaching an upper-floor apartment. I find sound carries less at ground level. Acoustics probably vary from place to place depending on numerous other factors.

But noise is more bothersome inside the building. Reinforced concrete still conveys the bass range of stereos and home theatre systems. Unfortunately over the past twenty years or so, watts-per-channel keep getting cheaper, so that today a small stereo sitting on a bookshelf puts out more volume than most buildings' sound insulation was ever designed to contain.

In a highrise, within say a fifty-foot sphere, you have more than a dozen neighbours and there's no avoiding the noise of everyday life.

It's not nearly as quiet as a detached house in a low-density residential neighbourhood.

4. Privacy. On the middle or upper floors, privacy isn't bad, providing other highrises are not very close beside you, in which case the opposite would apply. Due to the chequerboard arrangement of the highrises in my neighbourhood, you would need binoculars to practice voyeurism.

5. Detachment from neighbours, street, etc. Contemporary urban life is an anonymous and atomized life. I don't personally know most of the people in my building. I never even see most of them. However, that in itself is not necessarily dangerous, providing the street has enough use, and enough regular users, that there are always people around outside who can potentially involve themselves in any goings-on.

In my neighbourhood, there is a good age mix, so there are almost always retired adults walking or sitting in the parks. Because this neighbourhood is located near a commuter rail station, there are always people walking to and fro on the sidewalks. And nowadays many of them are packing cellphones.

I don't feel detached from the streets, since I spend a fair amount of time perched on my balcony, just watching life go by. Once I saw a car break-in, and I called the police. Once I went downstairs and out the door to tell off a guy riding a "pocket motorcycle" inside the park. I guess I'm turning into a bit of a busybody, but since most of my worldly goods are invested in my condomium, I feel a bit justified.

So much depends on varied social characteristics: age mix, income mix, family size mix, and so forth. Mixing is good because it ensures that streets and amenities are kept occupied through most of the day. This neighbourhood was mandated to include some rental housing and some social housing co-ops, so it's not all condos at the same market price level.

6. Fire protection. Hard to say until I see it tested in a fire, but the buildings here are all well-equipped with sprinklers, high-pressure standpipes, smoke/heat alarms, and other features. The only gas lines are those running to the boilers in the basement. In a serious earthquake it could be bad since water pressure would be lost, but these new highrises are still probably safer than many of the three and four-storey woodframed apartment buildings which comprise much of Vancouver's rental housing stock.

Aside: here in British Columbia our provincial gov't is changing the building code to permit woodframe buildings up to six storeys, which I think is a dangerous folly being done only to bolster our ailing forest-products sector.

7. Finally, part of condominium living is the building's management committee. I find that general meeting turn-out is usually low. A small number of volunteers have to bear much of the burden of responsibility. Most of the management work is contracted out to a professional property manager, but it is essential for residents to become well-informed about maintenance and governance issues (I was told that 80% of the total lifetime cost of a highrise building is operating, maintenance, and renovation). However, most residents, even when they are condo owners, nevertheless conduct themselves as if they were tenants, and assume that the building somehow runs itself. Committees are pesky things, but with property held in common, there is no avoiding it. If you don't take part in gov't, you submit to be governed by others.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 10:07 PM   #27
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^you make some good points. the whole strata council thing has its issues. there will always be problems with unequal burdens/appropriations, and there will always be the potential for corruption. of course, all multi-unit dwellings share these problems. detached single-family houses do allow for some greater freedom, but then you'd be wedded to that damned lawnmower.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 01:46 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Highrises in London are generally council flats, and ugly. They have a stigma.

I don't mind the service charge. It's cheaper than the rediculous maintenance time/cost and utility costs house-owners spend.
Same here in Germany. In the whole of western Europe, highrise-living is highly stigmatized. The stereotype of a highrise dweller is usually unemployed and lower-class. High-rise developements are related to high crime-rates and other undesired conditions by most of the people.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 04:55 AM   #29
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I also live in a highrise. The 18th floor, actually the top floor of my apartment. To be honest, I find mostly advantages to living in a highrise than a lowrise apartment. Obviously, living in a house is a different thing altogether and a completely different lifestyle, but when comparing apartments themselves, I'm quite happy where I am.

I suppose I am lucky as my apartment is sort of the penthouse of my building. It's not a true penthouse as there are other apartments on my top floor, but I do have the largest apartment in the building and the only one with a rooftop terrace that overlooks the city with a 270° view. This is of course a great advantage. The large terrace is perfect for summer BBQ's or winter New Year's Eve parties where I have one of the best views in the city.

I find it extremely quiet as well. There is the constant quiet rumble of the city below, but it is so quiet as to be only background noise when outside and silent when inside. As for neighbours, my building is very well insulated with thick walls and even thicker floors. I guess the underfloor heating adds to the sound dampening. I rarely ever hear neighbours, and certainly not their music or TV, only sometimes when people are drilling holes in the support walls which requires hammer drills do we get bothered a bit.

i don't feel isolated either. I meet far more people than suburban dwellers do. There are neighbours we greet in the lifts all the time, and as the local supermarket is right downstairs I also meet them there as well.

All apartments really have service charges in Germany, and I guess because this building is shared by so many people the costs are rounded down. We have two janitors who work full time, so unlike lowrise apartments, things get fixed quickly. The building is well maintained and secure (security camera's etc) with a nice private park at the bottom as well.

No, I don't live in an exclusive apartment, but it certainly is middle class. There is an identical building close by which is run by different management and is much more run down and more working class in tennants.

Oh, and the privacy. That other highrise is behind my building, so on either my terrace or 2nd balcony I have complete privacy. The only time people see me is when they fly past in helicopters or airships.

if I moved to a lowrise apartment, I would lose the great views, lose the privacy, lose the peace and quiet, possibly lose the lift (which makes a great deal of difference when bringing shopping home, whether that is a few cases of beer or something larger) and often lose the sunlight. With no other highrises in my way there are no shadows either.

I guess the trick is to find the right apartment. I've been quite lucky in this one and I guess we will move eventually and probably to a lowrise. It's the view I will miss the most.

What I see when I look out the window or sit on the terrace.








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Old February 11th, 2009, 05:08 AM   #30
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I like Frankfurt's skyline a lot, actually it is one of my personal favorites. The only grip that I have with it is the fact that the skyscrapers aren't cluttered enough, there is too much space between them.

But...what a view, I'd be jealous for sure.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 05:01 PM   #31
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I also live in a highrise. The 18th floor, actually the top floor of my apartment. To be honest, I find mostly advantages to living in a highrise than a lowrise apartment. Obviously, living in a house is a different thing altogether and a completely different lifestyle, but when comparing apartments themselves, I'm quite happy where I am.

I suppose I am lucky as my apartment is sort of the penthouse of my building. It's not a true penthouse as there are other apartments on my top floor, but I do have the largest apartment in the building and the only one with a rooftop terrace that overlooks the city with a 270° view. This is of course a great advantage. The large terrace is perfect for summer BBQ's or winter New Year's Eve parties where I have one of the best views in the city.

I find it extremely quiet as well. There is the constant quiet rumble of the city below, but it is so quiet as to be only background noise when outside and silent when inside. As for neighbours, my building is very well insulated with thick walls and even thicker floors. I guess the underfloor heating adds to the sound dampening. I rarely ever hear neighbours, and certainly not their music or TV, only sometimes when people are drilling holes in the support walls which requires hammer drills do we get bothered a bit.

i don't feel isolated either. I meet far more people than suburban dwellers do. There are neighbours we greet in the lifts all the time, and as the local supermarket is right downstairs I also meet them there as well.

All apartments really have service charges in Germany, and I guess because this building is shared by so many people the costs are rounded down. We have two janitors who work full time, so unlike lowrise apartments, things get fixed quickly. The building is well maintained and secure (security camera's etc) with a nice private park at the bottom as well.

No, I don't live in an exclusive apartment, but it certainly is middle class. There is an identical building close by which is run by different management and is much more run down and more working class in tennants.

Oh, and the privacy. That other highrise is behind my building, so on either my terrace or 2nd balcony I have complete privacy. The only time people see me is when they fly past in helicopters or airships.

if I moved to a lowrise apartment, I would lose the great views, lose the privacy, lose the peace and quiet, possibly lose the lift (which makes a great deal of difference when bringing shopping home, whether that is a few cases of beer or something larger) and often lose the sunlight. With no other highrises in my way there are no shadows either.

I guess the trick is to find the right apartment. I've been quite lucky in this one and I guess we will move eventually and probably to a lowrise. It's the view I will miss the most.

What I see when I look out the window or sit on the terrace.









I only have a look like that when I am walking up the taunus, stunning! I think I also move to the city when I can afford it.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 12:41 AM   #32
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I only have a look like that when I am walking up the taunus, stunning! I think I also move to the city when I can afford it.
What area do you live in at the moment?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #33
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it's good to have options. everybody has their preference. as long people who choose to live in a detached house pay the full cost of the extra infrastructure.

what do you do if you live in a city that's all midrise and you want to live in a highrise or a house?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:19 AM   #34
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In Hong Kong, a dense highrise residential environment was a factor in allowing SARS to spread throughout a few buildings (Amoy Gardens) like wildfire. This has implications to a centralized sewage system relied upon by thousands of residents.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 08:37 AM   #35
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It was probably a flawed sewage system. I haven't heard of that sort of problem in the US.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:02 PM   #36
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sewers would have had nothing to do with the spread of SARS. it was spread the same way as influenza - breathing in droplets form infected people coughing or sneezing.

the only way highrise living would have an effect is if people caught it sharing elevators with infected people. obviously you can't go through life without have close contact with other people unless you become a hermit.

population density is only a factor in the spread of disease in slums and refugee camps, etc. where there isn't proper sanitation. highrises with proper ventilation and sewage systems are fine.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:21 PM   #37
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sewers would have had nothing to do with the spread of SARS. it was spread the same way as influenza - breathing in droplets form infected people coughing or sneezing.

the only way highrise living would have an effect is if people caught it sharing elevators with infected people. obviously you can't go through life without have close contact with other people unless you become a hermit.

population density is only a factor in the spread of disease in slums and refugee camps, etc. where there isn't proper sanitation. highrises with proper ventilation and sewage systems are fine.

SARS was also spread though fecal matter. People not washing their hands after using a bathroom. Legionnaires is always a concern in shared spaces but if the hot water is kept at a certain temperature, it's unlikely to occur -hence why hot water in apts. is almost always hotter than a single family residence.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 05:12 AM   #38
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That SARS "outbreak" was caused by ventilation from bathrooms that carried droplets of disease into the internal air shaft that all bathrooms shared along that edge of the building. Some units changed the ventilators to ultra-powerful models, which sucked the disease out and also carried into other units at a more rapid pace.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:41 PM   #39
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Main-Taunus-Kreis
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:02 PM   #40
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I live in apartment on the first floor of a 4-story apartment row, so not really an high-rise, though the idea of an apartment is the same.

I really like the fact that I don't have a garden to maintain, I don't like gardening. I also like it's good accessible, although it doesn't have an elevator. I share one separate hallway with my neighbors, so no people walking by my place all the time (which can be annoying when you're trying to sleep or so.) There's also enough parking space nearby.

Some disadvantages to me is that I have to walk down a stair, and like 100m to dump my garbage. It's more convenient when it's closer to my apartment, though not that bad.

Another disadvantage is the fact there's sometimes noise from my neighbors, for instance if their washing machine is centrifugating, I can clearly hear that.

Some people complain about the lack of social cohesion in suburban neighborhoods, but it's also near-zero in my apartment building.

I think it also depends on what kind of apartment building you're living. In Europe, they're mostly either social housing or really upscale apartments, not much in between. Another disadvantage of apartments is that if you're buying one, they're almost as expensive as a suburban home, yet you have much fewer square meters living area. If you can choose between a € 190.000 80m2 apartment, or a € 230.000 150 m2+garden rowhouse, the choice is quite easy if you are able to afford both.
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