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Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM   #141
KeanoManu
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If that's the price we have to pay to allow a larger mix of different incomes in an area then I'm all for it. It should make the area feel more alive.

Keeping the poor in areas only surrounded by other poor people will keep them poor forever.
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM   #142
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SOUTH AFRICA


A69_JB by TiinaMaria, on Flickr


Gautrain (above the township) by Jean (tarkastad), on Flickr


qtown panorama by annanomsa, on Flickr


malmesburyrdp by josefcramer.com, on Flickr


Townships, Port Elizabeth by Buster&Bubby, on Flickr


Soweto Township by sea turtle, on Flickr
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Old Yesterday, 04:24 PM   #143
alexandru.mircea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeanoManu View Post
If that's the price we have to pay to allow a larger mix of different incomes in an area then I'm all for it. It should make the area feel more alive.

Keeping the poor in areas only surrounded by other poor people will keep them poor forever.
You're all for a bit of institutional racism? There recently was a very indepth Guardian investigation about a major mixed residential project in NE London and the people from the council homes were saying that the new inhabitans from the new luxury buildings would even cross the path to walk on the other side of it to that used by them, if they were non-white. That's exactly to what these segregated facilities are responding.
Also, the small commerces that used to give a lively community feel to the area (ethnic food places, barber etc) were told to either posh up or move out.
Now, I get that in terms of comfort and access to housing it's better having mixed residences than nothing, but that doesn't excuse formal segregation, in these.
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Old Yesterday, 05:00 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
You're all for a bit of institutional racism? There recently was a very indepth Guardian investigation about a major mixed residential project in NE London and the people from the council homes were saying that the new inhabitans from the new luxury buildings would even cross the path to walk on the other side of it to that used by them, if they were non-white. That's exactly to what these segregated facilities are responding.
Also, the small commerces that used to give a lively community feel to the area (ethnic food places, barber etc) were told to either posh up or move out.
Now, I get that in terms of comfort and access to housing it's better having mixed residences than nothing, but that doesn't excuse formal segregation, in these.
No-one said anything about racism.

Different doors depending on what you pay for are nothing controversial according to me.

The alternative would be to completely throw out the poor people and put them in some area with other poor people in the outskirts somewhere. So in that regard this is a good compromise.
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Old Yesterday, 05:19 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Some of those extra facilities are in the lobby areas though, 24/7 concierge, luxury designer furniture etc so without a separate door you couldn't have separate facilities.

It doesn't bother me that much having thought about it, I live in a row of terraced houses, some bigger and smarter and more expensive than others, we all have separate doors and it doesn't bother me that I can't use the fancy hallway of the big house a few doors down the street. The 'poor door' shown in that pic doesn't look any worse or more humiliating to use than my own front door or those of millions of homes around the country.

The alternative (that used to be the norm) of having dedicated blocks entirely for poor people in different locations altogether from the rich apartments seems much worse to me.
I more object to the idea that if you're poor you have to go around to the side of the building to get in, whilst the wealthy get to go in the front. If it wasn't so demeaning to put the "poor door" with the delivery entrances it would be less galling to me.
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Old Yesterday, 07:25 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeanoManu View Post
No-one said anything about racism.

Different doors depending on what you pay for are nothing controversial according to me.

The alternative would be to completely throw out the poor people and put them in some area with other poor people in the outskirts somewhere. So in that regard this is a good compromise.
The alternative would be to have them together and using the same entrance, same facilities, like in other such residences. That way it would achieve the social mixity that the authorities wanted in the first place with this thing.
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Old Yesterday, 08:07 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
The alternative would be to have them together and using the same entrance, same facilities, like in other such residences. That way it would achieve the social mixity that the authorities wanted in the first place with this thing.
But then the developers wouldn't make the lobby so luxurious, and so the rich people wouldn't choose to live there at all, they would live in other buildings with no social housing.

In the case of London many of these people going through the 'poor' entrance are probably not poor at all, they are just regular working people who can't afford the sky-high prices of open market homes in that district. Of course they could choose to live in a cheaper area away from all these super-rich people (as most of us do) but if they want cheap accommodation in prime areas of one of the most expensive cities in the world then I don't think that foregoing a concierge and having a standard door rather than a luxury lobby is such a huge humiliation myself.
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Old Yesterday, 08:11 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
The alternative would be to have them together and using the same entrance, same facilities, like in other such residences. That way it would achieve the social mixity that the authorities wanted in the first place with this thing.
Practices vary by country/city, but each place has a way by which expenses of a multi-family building are shared among residents. When you have a building with, say, 120 units, all of them built to roughly same standards, and within a common size range, dividing such expenses is not that difficult: things like electricity on common areas can be shared by internal size of each unit, cleaning and maintenance services of common areas can be divided by unit, and so amenities on-site like an internal playground, acoustic-proof play room, swimming pool...

The problem is that when you have a building that will house people with vastly different incomes, there is a conflict about which amenities are reasonable or not.

For a family making £ 200.000/year in London, paying for a concierge in the ground floor, latest famous-name design furniture replaced at the first noticeable scratches, on-site "premium" gym and warm-water swimming lane can be nice perks they are willing to pay for, and consider a positive thing.

For a family making £ 50.000/year living in the same building, the extra couple thousand pounds per year these services would add to their building expense bill (or whatever it is called in UK) can be a strain on the budget, or things they would really not want to spend money in. They could well live with an elevator (lift) that doesn't have mirrors that crack and are replaced every other year, or not have a doorman at night.

In New York, there were some bitter conflicts about use of amenities like rooftop barbecue areas and exercise rooms in some recent projects that were built with extra charges paid only by some units who then retained exclusive rights to use them (mostly excluding long-term rent-stabilized units whose dwellers couldn't possible afford the couple 10K $$ on extra expenses without serious hardship).

I don't say I like or think separate doors and the like are awesome, but from an economic point of view it is easy to understand them, and I don't think the residents of affordable units are shortchanged in any way. Let's look at the alternatives:

- charge for these common amenities' expenses equally to all residents (or per area, or per number of dwellers), which would deny in part the affordability intentions of the designated units for reasons I explained above

- put the building common expenses under the same affordability scheme (meaning: higher-income/market rate dwellers would have to permanently subsidize the charges for the affordable-housing dwellers)

- convince the government to further subsidize expense budgets for lower income tenants, which would be a very tough sell politically ("they are getting a nice house in a very good area for a far discounted rental price; why should they get posh halls and gold-plated elevators charges subsidized further")?
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Old Yesterday, 09:48 PM   #149
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Quote:
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But then the developers wouldn't make the lobby so luxurious, and so the rich people wouldn't choose to live there at all, they would live in other buildings with no social housing.
You're massively underrating the London property market. Everything sells extremely well, and the demands comes from investors all over the world. It's currently *the* ultimate premium product in terms of urban property and the hundreds of high rise residential projects proves it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
In the case of London many of these people going through the 'poor' entrance are probably not poor at all, they are just regular working people who can't afford the sky-high prices of open market homes in that district. Of course they could choose to live in a cheaper area away from all these super-rich people (as most of us do) but if they want cheap accommodation in prime areas of one of the most expensive cities in the world then I don't think that foregoing a concierge and having a standard door rather than a luxury lobby is such a huge humiliation myself.
Yes, but it's not to up to us but to those actually going through it all to decide for themselves. Personally I think that solutions with separate exits and separate everything could be done without them being improper or, on a symbolic level, humiliating, but if those involved feel the segregation principle itself discriminating, then it's their prerogative and it's between them, the authorities and the developers to solve the issue.
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Old Today, 06:04 AM   #150
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Various social housing projects in Brazil


U por PAC 2, no Flickr
Those houses are not part of any social program for poor people. This is one of the villages built to accommodate the workers (and their families) of Belo Monte Dam (3rd largest of the world), very close to there:


UHE Belo Monte (PA) by PAC 2, on Flickr


UHE Belo Monte (PA) by PAC 2, on Flickr
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Old Today, 10:35 AM   #151
Jonesy55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
Yes, but it's not to up to us but to those actually going through it all to decide for themselves. Personally I think that solutions with separate exits and separate everything could be done without them being improper or, on a symbolic level, humiliating, but if those involved feel the segregation principle itself discriminating, then it's their prerogative and it's between them, the authorities and the developers to solve the issue.
And the taxpayer funding the housing benefit can have an opinion too....

That's me!
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Old Today, 01:00 PM   #152
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But then the developers wouldn't make the lobby so luxurious, and so the rich people wouldn't choose to live there at all, they would live in other buildings with no social housing.

In the case of London many of these people going through the 'poor' entrance are probably not poor at all, they are just regular working people who can't afford the sky-high prices of open market homes in that district. Of course they could choose to live in a cheaper area away from all these super-rich people (as most of us do) but if they want cheap accommodation in prime areas of one of the most expensive cities in the world then I don't think that foregoing a concierge and having a standard door rather than a luxury lobby is such a huge humiliation myself.
Is that cheap looking thing really a luxury development? Don't the rich in London/UK value quality architecture?
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Old Today, 01:50 PM   #153
Jonesy55
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I don't think I've actually seen a pic of the whole building.

I would imagine they are like any other segment of society, some care about architecture, most don't. Certainly if they are an investment buyer from Russia, China, Greece, Egypt etc just looking for somewhere to park their wealth they probably don't...
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