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Old May 11th, 2017, 02:36 AM   #3761
hkskyline
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Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Comparisons like these are always a bit disingenuous because other cities rely on commuter rail systems to reach into the surrounding suburbs and neighboring small towns while Shanghai relies primarily on the metro system, with the exception of one (possibly more?) commuter rail lines.

Granted, many of these commuter rail systems aren't grade separated and aren't considered rapid transit, but to boast about a city's transit development advancement using its metro system length isn't fair when said city is missing the entire other form of transit (again, with small exceptions).
The concept of commuter rail vs. conventional subway/metro rail is not really distinguished in China.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 02:54 AM   #3762
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You can include Jiaxing (~100km), Suzhou (~100km) and Kunshan (~50km) as commuting sources/destinations for example. And there are ~225km/140 stations under construction (Shanghai "Metro").
Those are impressive numbers and the pace of expansion is admirable, but to put things in perspective, the commuter rail system of NYC has Metro-North (~600km), Long Island Railroad (~500km), and NJ Transit (~1000km). Even commuter rail in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is notorious for its lack of rail infrastructure, has about 540km of route length between Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, and ACE.

Again, I realize this is an inherently flawed comparison, but so was the original article. Different cities have different implementations, and allocate transit categories differently. If you're going to compare route lengths between systems, you need to be mindful of the nuances. For example, Tokyo has inarguably the most rail transit, both in system length and installed capacity, of any city in the world, but its two subway systems only operate 300km of track, which is an extremely small fraction of the total rail network (2400km+).
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Old May 11th, 2017, 05:00 AM   #3763
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Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Those are impressive numbers and the pace of expansion is admirable, but to put things in perspective, the commuter rail system of NYC has Metro-North (~600km), Long Island Railroad (~500km), and NJ Transit (~1000km). Even commuter rail in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is notorious for its lack of rail infrastructure, has about 540km of route length between Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, and ACE.
To put things in perspective the NYC commuter rail system (NJT, LIRR and Metro North) carries less than 1 million passengers per weekday. SF's commuter system doesn't even go over 75,000 passengers per weekday. Lots of lines might look good on a map but if they are not high end infrastructure providing high quality service than throwing those in is not a bit disingenuous but flat out incorrect. By the logic of a couple of trains a day counting as good transit service means the Yangtze River Delta CRH intercity high speed rail network is now part of the Shanghai commuter rail web.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 05:57 AM   #3764
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Originally Posted by saiho View Post
To put things in perspective the NYC commuter rail system (NJT, LIRR and Metro North) carries less than 1 million passengers per weekday. SF's commuter system doesn't even go over 75,000 passengers per weekday. Lots of lines might look good on a map but if they are not high end infrastructure providing high quality service than throwing those in is not a bit disingenuous but flat out incorrect. By the logic of a couple of trains a day counting as good transit service means the Yangtze River Delta CRH intercity high speed rail network is now part of the Shanghai commuter rail web.
Well lets not also forget SI railway and PATH trains. Altogether, NYC metro region rail length is approximately comparable to that of Tokyo. You do bring up a really good point about ridership though. I have been making the argument for years whenever people mention Shanghai as having the largest subway system in the world, that it pales in comparison to NYC in terms of route length if we were to blur the distinction between commuter rail and metro. However, Shanghai's ridership on 590 km of metro is greater (~10 million) than NYC's +2,000 km of rail transit (~6 million). Great point!

I do hope one day, Shanghai has commuter rail on par with that of Tokyo and NYC to supplement its metro. I don't think it's very feasible to take local trains from out in Kunshan. But a good commuter rail system with express service should change that. I wonder why Shanghai is so reluctant to build a commuter rail network. Other cities in China seem to be doing so, in particular, the Pearl River region, Beijing, Nanjing and even Changsha just built a really nice looking commuter rail line. What's the deal with Shanghai?
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Old May 11th, 2017, 06:52 AM   #3765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
To put things in perspective the NYC commuter rail system (NJT, LIRR and Metro North) carries less than 1 million passengers per weekday. SF's commuter system doesn't even go over 75,000 passengers per weekday.
A million passengers per day doesn't seem like a lot, but commuter rail is built for thin and long corridors. Using NJT numbers to approximate across the 1M trips (3.4B passenger km / 90M annual riders = 38 km per trip on average), the NYC commuter rail system delivers 38 million passenger-kms per weekday.

To put that in perspective, the NYC Subway has 6M passengers per weekday averaging about 8km per trip, for 48 million passenger-kms per day. In other words, commuter rail accounts for 44% of daily passenger-kms delivered in the city's rail transit system, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Lots of lines might look good on a map but if they are not high end infrastructure providing high quality service than throwing those in is not a bit disingenuous but flat out incorrect. By the logic of a couple of trains a day counting as good transit service means the Yangtze River Delta CRH intercity high speed rail network is now part of the Shanghai commuter rail web.
The Altamont Corridor Express, which runs four trains per day per direction, has a daily ridership of about 5,000 people per day, which is drop in the bucket but actually quite significant when you consider that it's a one-way commuter train for people living in Stockton (pop: 300,000) to get to work in San Jose (140km away).

No argument from me that rail transit in the SF Bay Area is insufficient and underfunded, but my point is that commuter rail systems deliver a lot of value for commuters and to discredit them as infrequent services carrying a relatively small number of passengers betrays the outsized impact they have in moving people long distances during peak commute hours.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 11:56 AM   #3766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Those are impressive numbers and the pace of expansion is admirable, but to put things in perspective, the commuter rail system of NYC has Metro-North (~600km), Long Island Railroad (~500km), and NJ Transit (~1000km). Even commuter rail in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is notorious for its lack of rail infrastructure, has about 540km of route length between Caltrain, Capitol Corridor, and ACE.

Again, I realize this is an inherently flawed comparison, but so was the original article. Different cities have different implementations, and allocate transit categories differently. If you're going to compare route lengths between systems, you need to be mindful of the nuances. For example, Tokyo has inarguably the most rail transit, both in system length and installed capacity, of any city in the world, but its two subway systems only operate 300km of track, which is an extremely small fraction of the total rail network (2400km+).

150km radius ...

Jinshan Railway (50km)
Suzhou Rail Transit 120km (+45km under construction)
Changzhou Metro 70 km under construction
Wuxi Metro 56km (+33km under construction)
Hangzhou Metro 81km (+180km under construction)
Shanghai Metro 225km under construction
Hangzhou 160km (2x) - high-speed and slow rail
Changzhou 170km (3x) - Shanghai–Nanjing Intercity High-Speed Railway, Beijing–Shanghai/Jinghu High-Speed Railway and slow rail
30km maglev

1167km (530km high-speed) "commuting"/other metro rails
588km Shanghai Metro
553km under construction in the area


Slow
Fast

http://chinatrain12306.com/travel/hangzhou.htm



Beijing–Shanghai/Jinghu High-Speed Railway
Shanghai–Nanjing Intercity High-Speed Railway

https://www.travelchinaguide.com/chi...hai-suzhou.htm
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Last edited by skyridgeline; May 11th, 2017 at 12:11 PM.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 03:31 AM   #3767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
A million passengers per day doesn't seem like a lot, but commuter rail is built for thin and long corridors. Using NJT numbers to approximate across the 1M trips (3.4B passenger km / 90M annual riders = 38 km per trip on average), the NYC commuter rail system delivers 38 million passenger-kms per weekday.

To put that in perspective, the NYC Subway has 6M passengers per weekday averaging about 8km per trip, for 48 million passenger-kms per day. In other words, commuter rail accounts for 44% of daily passenger-kms delivered in the city's rail transit system, which is nothing to sneeze at.

The Altamont Corridor Express, which runs four trains per day per direction, has a daily ridership of about 5,000 people per day, which is drop in the bucket but actually quite significant when you consider that it's a one-way commuter train for people living in Stockton (pop: 300,000) to get to work in San Jose (140km away).

No argument from me that rail transit in the SF Bay Area is insufficient and underfunded, but my point is that commuter rail systems deliver a lot of value for commuters and to discredit them as infrequent services carrying a relatively small number of passengers betrays the outsized impact they have in moving people long distances during peak commute hours.
Commuter rail is for thin and long corridors hence directly comparing it with subways is incorrect. If you are going to bring in regional commuter rail then you can't discount the intercity HSR network around Shanghai. If we are going to be comparing importance and value then why not throw in the massive Shanghai bus network that has over a thousand routes and carries 10 million passengers per day? They deliver a lot of value for commuters and to discredit them as low infrastructure services betrays the outsized impact they have in moving people around the city. The article in question just said Shanghai leads the world on one well defined (but not absolute) criterion of transit, not "Shanghia's transit network is the best in the world." Side note, it mentions the creation of a 90 min commuter belt transit system with neighboring cities in the next 5 years. So I guess there is your commuter rail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Well lets not also forget SI railway and PATH trains.
To be honest I would consider PATH and SI trains to be actual rapid transit.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 07:12 AM   #3768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Commuter rail is for thin and long corridors hence directly comparing it with subways is incorrect. If you are going to bring in regional commuter rail then you can't discount the intercity HSR network around Shanghai. If we are going to be comparing importance and value then why not throw in the massive Shanghai bus network that has over a thousand routes and carries 10 million passengers per day? They deliver a lot of value for commuters and to discredit them as low infrastructure services betrays the outsized impact they have in moving people around the city. The article in question just said Shanghai leads the world on one well defined (but not absolute) criterion of transit, not "Shanghia's transit network is the best in the world." Side note, it mentions the creation of a 90 min commuter belt transit system with neighboring cities in the next 5 years. So I guess there is your commuter rail.



To be honest I would consider PATH and SI trains to be actual rapid transit.
Agreed, PATH and SI are definitely real rapid transit but they're never counted in the NYC subway system because of different fare structure and disconnection with the rest of the network respectively.

The issue with counting the HSR network is whether it is feasible for use as a true commuter rail network from a fare structure perspective? Like can someone feasible live in Suzhou or Wuxi and commute to downtown Shanghai for work on a daily basis? I'm assuming it is feasible from a timing perspective, as I recall, it takes just under 30 minutes from Suzhou and little over 40 minutes from Wuxi. But are the fares feasible for daily commutes? It seems to cost around RMB 40 for a one way fare, equating to 80 RMB per day, which is roughly $12 a day. This translates to approximately $250-$300 a month, which is comparable to an unlimited monthly pass for zone 7 of the LIRR, or 40 miles from penn station at the farthest. However, purchasing power of those living in NYC suburbs I'm sure are much higher on average than those in Shanghai. Spending RMB 1,600 to 2,400 a month just on the commute alone seems out of reach for many commuters. Seems like the HSR wasn't priced for daily commuter use and much more for less frequent, mid-distance trips. Perhaps if they implemented a monthly pass that provides significant discounts over pay-per-ride, then it may be feasible to consider the HSR "commuter rail".

Also, the coverage is more consistent with that of a mid-long distance intercity rail than actual commuter rail. Commuter rail networks are generally denser but cover less area.

Last edited by drunkenmunkey888; May 12th, 2017 at 07:17 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2017, 03:55 AM   #3769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Agreed, PATH and SI are definitely real rapid transit but they're never counted in the NYC subway system because of different fare structure and disconnection with the rest of the network respectively.

The issue with counting the HSR network is whether it is feasible for use as a true commuter rail network from a fare structure perspective? Like can someone feasible live in Suzhou or Wuxi and commute to downtown Shanghai for work on a daily basis? I'm assuming it is feasible from a timing perspective, as I recall, it takes just under 30 minutes from Suzhou and little over 40 minutes from Wuxi. But are the fares feasible for daily commutes? It seems to cost around RMB 40 for a one way fare, equating to 80 RMB per day, which is roughly $12 a day. This translates to approximately $250-$300 a month, which is comparable to an unlimited monthly pass for zone 7 of the LIRR, or 40 miles from penn station at the farthest. However, purchasing power of those living in NYC suburbs I'm sure are much higher on average than those in Shanghai. Spending RMB 1,600 to 2,400 a month just on the commute alone seems out of reach for many commuters. Seems like the HSR wasn't priced for daily commuter use and much more for less frequent, mid-distance trips. Perhaps if they implemented a monthly pass that provides significant discounts over pay-per-ride, then it may be feasible to consider the HSR "commuter rail".

Also, the coverage is more consistent with that of a mid-long distance intercity rail than actual commuter rail. Commuter rail networks are generally denser but cover less area.
I know a commuter market exists between Suzhou/Kunshan into Shanghai. Kunshan to Shanghai fares range from 25 to 15 RMB. There are arrangements in some workplaces to work longer hours and only commute for 4 days of the 7 day in a week.
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Old May 15th, 2017, 11:10 AM   #3770
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From Jiaxing (does not have its own airport) to Shanghai Hongqiao Airport ...




Full-speed pass through @ 1:40 (hold on to your skirt ).
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 11:58 PM   #3771
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After looking at a map I feel line 2 should have been built differently between Loushanguan Lu and Jing'ansi. Instead of hopping to Changning Road in between Tianshan Road and West Nanjing Road I would have built it along West Yan'an Road, with two intermediate stops: Kaixuan Lu (where Yan'an Xilu sits now, since line 2 was built first it would have got naming rights) and Jiangsu Lu (not where it is now but at the intersection of Jiangsu Road and West Yan'an Road). What is now Yan'an Xilu on lines 3 and 4 would be Kaixuan Lu, and there would be an extra stop on line 11 between Jiangsu Lu and Longde Lu, which would be Changning Lu. But the plans in the mid 90s were definitely different, as line 2 was built to Zhongshan Gongyuan and may have been planned to continue along Changning Road. This, of course, would have affected my "shanzhai" version, as it would make impossible a joke and a not-so coincidental alignment I have in the area.

BTW, I use different translations when referring to a thing or another. I render station names in pinyin (Renmin Guangchang), while streets and places get translated (People's Square).
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Old July 8th, 2017, 04:35 PM   #3772
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Line 17 begins dynamic and load testing.



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