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Old February 24th, 2006, 06:01 AM   #1
*UofT*
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Lets Open up Makkah and Madina, Time for expansion of Infrastructure!

Why doesn't Saudi Arabia build exceptional infrastructure in the Holy cities of Makkah and Madina and open it up to the world community at large. Lets share the best of Islam has to offer and further educate the world of what Islam is about. Lets preserve Islamic heritage sites and have people visit them. Imagine a Saudi Arabia that is able to capitalize on these ventures, and at the same time share what the best the world has to offer to all peoples?

I understand During Hajj we would have to keep it strictly for Muslims, but during other months why not have Makkah and Madina bustling with people??, Makkah and Madina have always been the center point of Human trade/commerce and the place where ideas have came together.

Imagine the Industry the Saudi's can create in opening up their cities and borders and inviting the world to truly understand that country. We would all be better off when the world is able to view our religion in its entirety!. Imagine Japanese Tourists learning about Islam in Makkah and visiting places where some of Islam's most noticeable events took place.

Really have to start reminding ourselves that the best Dawah is education to those that are ignorant of your religion. These days most of the world is Ignorant of Islam.

You may call it a booming tourism industry, I call it a Booming Dawah industry and hey the prophet too was a Merchant
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Old February 24th, 2006, 08:01 AM   #2
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^ Non muslims arent allowed to enter Makka and Madina not because Saudi Arabia wants to but because Allah didnt allow them

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean spritually. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 08:15 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smussuw
^ Non muslims arent allowed to enter Makka and Madina not because Saudi Arabia wants to but because Allah didnt allow them

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean spritually. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

Ohh yah right i never knew this
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Old February 24th, 2006, 10:37 AM   #4
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yeah more islamic hatred of foreigners dressed up as prophecy
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Old February 24th, 2006, 11:02 AM   #5
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I understand what UofT is talking about. What about promoting and spreading Islam around the world, so that new Muslims can come to Makkah and worship as they want. During the Hajj more than 3-4 million people from ALL the world's country's visit Makkah. Then they share their experience to the rest of the world.

Lets show the world that Islam is the greatest relegion in the world!!!
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Old February 24th, 2006, 04:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smussuw
^ Non muslims arent allowed to enter Makka and Madina not because Saudi Arabia wants to but because Allah didnt allow them

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean spritually. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
what do u mean allah didn't let them. god never tells anyone what to do and what not
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Old February 24th, 2006, 04:11 PM   #7
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dont bother persian just be glad that you are persian
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Old February 24th, 2006, 04:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persian
what do u mean allah didn't let them. god never tells anyone what to do and what not
Makkah and Medina are meant to be a sanctuary for Muslims.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 05:41 PM   #9
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Actually Smussuw the quote talks about "Idolalters" ?, From my knowledge most of the world's religions can't be considered Idolaters?, This could be in reference to the pagans that inhabited Makkah in Pre-Islamic times.

I am serious about this issue, because opening up the cities with more traffic and better infrastructure is a WIN-WIN situation.

I think during the Ottoman era, Non Muslims were allowed entry to the Grand Mosque can anyone verify this?
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Old February 24th, 2006, 05:47 PM   #10
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^ No, no... the Quran specifically states that Makkah (and the Great Mosque) is only for Muslims (who are pure)... There is a specific verse from the Quran, plus a specific Hadeeth..

Also, as a Muslim I would be offended if I saw a non-Muslim in Makkah and Madinah, which are Islam's two Holiest sites. They are places which are meant to be reserved for Muslims only--not some sort of Disneyland opened to all how want to come..
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Old February 24th, 2006, 06:07 PM   #11
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Care to cite that Quranic verse or hadeeth?
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Old February 24th, 2006, 06:27 PM   #12
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Not true

There's nothing in the Quran that says, directly or indirectly, that non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca or Medina. The 'aya smussuw refers to, talks about the Holy Mosque in Mecca not the city. What it says is: from that year onwards, pagans are not allowed to enter and perform pagan rituals. Heck, non-muslims are even allowed to enter the prophet's mosque, not only the city.

Don't take my word for it, I'll even give you a fatwa by none other than Bin Baz, one of the most conservative scholars you can find:

سئل الشيخ عبد العزيز بن باز عن حكم دخول الكافر المساجد فأجاب: "أمّا المسجد الحرام؛ فلا يجوز دخوله لجميع الكفرة؛ اليهود، والنصارى وعباد الأوثان، والشيوعيين، فجميع الكفرة لا يجوز لهم دخول المسجد الحرام؛ لأنّ الله سبحانه وتعالى يقول: ﴿يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا﴾ [التوبة: 28]، فمنع سبحانه من دخولهم المسجد الحرام، والمشركون يدخل فيهم اليهود والنصارى عند الإطلاق، فلا يجوز دخول أي مشرك المسجد الحرام، لا يهودي، ولا نصراني، ولا غيرهما، بل هذا خاص بالمسلمين. وأمَّا بقية المساجد فلا بأس من دخولهم للحاجة والمصلحة، ومن ذلك المدينة، وإن كانت المدينة لها خصوصية، لكنها في هذه المسألة كغيرها من المساجد، لأنّ الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم ربط فيها الكافر في مسجد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، وأقرَّ وفد ثقيف حين دخلوا المسجد قبل أن يسلموا، وهكذا وفد النصارى دخلوا مسجده عليه الصلاة والسلام، فدلَّ ذلك على أنه يجوز دخول المسجد النبوي للمشرك, وهكذا بقية المساجد من باب أولى إذا كان لحاجة، إما لسؤال، أو لحاجة أخرى، أو لسماع درس ليستفيد، أو ليسلم ويعلن إسلامه، أو ما أشبه ذلك.

والحاصل: أنَّه يجوز دخوله إذا كان هناك مصلحة، أمَّا إذا لم يكن هناك مصلحة؛ فلا حاجة إلى دخوله المسجد، أو أن يخشى من دخوله العبث في أثاث المسجد، أو النجاسة فيمنع"
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Old February 24th, 2006, 06:34 PM   #13
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SURE!!

The following is a quote from http://islam.about.com/od/hajj/f/mecca.htm :


The ban on non-Muslim visitors is mentioned in the Qur’an as follows: "Oh you who believe! Truly the idolaters are unclean; so let them not, after this year, approach the Sacred Mosque...." (9:28). This verse specifically refers to the Grand Mosque in Mecca; later scholars have included Madinah in this ruling as well. There are some Islamic scholars who would permit exceptions to this general rule, for trade purposes or for people who are under treaty permission. There is also some debate about the exact area and borders of the restricted area(s). The government of Saudi Arabia, which controls access to the holy sites, has decided upon a strict ban on both cities in their entirety.
Restricting access to Mecca and Madinah is intended to provide a place of peace and refuge for Muslim believers and preserve the sanctity of the holy cities.
At this time, millions of Muslims visit the cities each year, and additional tourist traffic would simply add to the congestion and detract from the spirituality of the pilgrimage visit.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 06:47 PM   #14
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I understand During Hajj it should be only be open to Pilgramages, But I honestly think the best way of Dawah is to have people visit and understand Islam.

Again that quote Halwala mentions "Idolaters", These are people with many God's and is probably mentioning the PRE-Islamic Pagans. Most of the World's religion's can't be classified as Idolaters.

Imagine what it could mean for the cities as well, WE ARE IN DIRE NEED TO BUILD WORLD CLASS CITIES IN MAKKAH AND MADINA.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 06:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiJazzey
Not true

There's nothing in the Quran that says, directly or indirectly, that non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca or Medina. The 'aya smussuw refers to, talks about the Holy Mosque in Mecca not the city. What it says is: from that year onwards, pagans are not allowed to enter and perform pagan rituals. Heck, non-muslims are even allowed to enter the prophet's mosque, not only the city.

Don't take my word for it, I'll even give you a fatwa by none other than Bin Baz, one of the most conservative scholars you can find:

سئل الشيخ عبد العزيز بن باز عن حكم دخول الكافر المساجد فأجاب: "أمّا المسجد الحرام؛ فلا يجوز دخوله لجميع الكفرة؛ اليهود، والنصارى وعباد الأوثان، والشيوعيين، فجميع الكفرة لا يجوز لهم دخول المسجد الحرام؛ لأنّ الله سبحانه وتعالى يقول: ﴿يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلا يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَذَا﴾ [التوبة: 28]، فمنع سبحانه من دخولهم المسجد الحرام، والمشركون يدخل فيهم اليهود والنصارى عند الإطلاق، فلا يجوز دخول أي مشرك المسجد الحرام، لا يهودي، ولا نصراني، ولا غيرهما، بل هذا خاص بالمسلمين. وأمَّا بقية المساجد فلا بأس من دخولهم للحاجة والمصلحة، ومن ذلك المدينة، وإن كانت المدينة لها خصوصية، لكنها في هذه المسألة كغيرها من المساجد، لأنّ الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم ربط فيها الكافر في مسجد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، وأقرَّ وفد ثقيف حين دخلوا المسجد قبل أن يسلموا، وهكذا وفد النصارى دخلوا مسجده عليه الصلاة والسلام، فدلَّ ذلك على أنه يجوز دخول المسجد النبوي للمشرك, وهكذا بقية المساجد من باب أولى إذا كان لحاجة، إما لسؤال، أو لحاجة أخرى، أو لسماع درس ليستفيد، أو ليسلم ويعلن إسلامه، أو ما أشبه ذلك.

والحاصل: أنَّه يجوز دخوله إذا كان هناك مصلحة، أمَّا إذا لم يكن هناك مصلحة؛ فلا حاجة إلى دخوله المسجد، أو أن يخشى من دخوله العبث في أثاث المسجد، أو النجاسة فيمنع"

HiJazzey bin baz also said stupid things like the earth not being round... i personally don't like to listen to a guy who doesnt know what he is talking about...

and it is well cited that its mecca and medina that are haram from non-muslims. please review your resources.

Chritisians are also idolaters because they dont believe in one god,remeber when they say : in the name of god and the holy spirit and mary and his son (something like that i don't know it word by word)

Last edited by safqa_tijariya; February 24th, 2006 at 07:05 PM.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 07:49 PM   #16
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No there is a difference between the People of the Book and Idolaters your confusing two very distinct entities, regardless of the matter.

what do you guys think of the expansion in Makkah?? All i see are Buildings being constructed around it?, kind of leaves you to wonder if there is room for expansion?
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Old February 24th, 2006, 08:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *UofT*
Again that quote Halwala mentions "Idolaters", These are people with many God's and is probably mentioning the PRE-Islamic Pagans. Most of the World's religion's can't be classified as Idolaters.
As far as I know even christians are included as idolaters because they believe in trinity.

I agree though about ur point in developing Meeca they should have a master plan for it. A friend suggested that someone should give Sheikh Mohammed a plan to develop mecca and send it to King Abu Dhabi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiJazzey
Not true
There's nothing in the Quran that says, directly or indirectly, that non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca or Medina. The 'aya smussuw refers to, talks about the Holy Mosque in Mecca not the city. What it says is: from that year onwards, pagans are not allowed to enter and perform pagan rituals. Heck, non-muslims are even allowed to enter the prophet's mosque, not only the city.
The whole city is a Haram and most of the Islamic scholars supported this view as far as I know. but who knows, it all depend on how Islamic scholars interpret it. We are too ignorant to give fatawas about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by safqa_tijariya
HiJazzey bin baz also said stupid things like the earth not being round... i personally don't like to listen to a guy who doesnt know what he is talking about...
I am curious about ur Islamic school.

First of all you dont have the right to talk about respected Islamic scholars even if u think that they were wrong in some of their points. You dont even have .00001% of their islamic science.

uve said the same thing about Mohammed Abul wahhab. I wonder who is ur perfect Islamic scholar

Last edited by smussuw; February 24th, 2006 at 08:13 PM.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 08:15 PM   #18
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Okay, So why don't we try to draw up Plans into how Makkah should be built?

I'm serious!, If there is anyone here who has close ties to the Royal Family in the UAE or even Saudi I"m sure we can do something.

Lets start discussion on how to expand it and i'm quite serious, from my knowledge the royal families actually read all letters and suggestions with regards to the two Holy Mosques.

Send it to whomever and get whoever to build it, BUT we definetly need to start thinking how to build a world class city.

You guys realize per square meter of Makkah is more expensive than any real estate in Manhattan, Hong Kong or anywhere else in the world.

Yet you have rusty buildings from the 70's that are only 7 storey's tall surrounding the Holy Mosque!.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 08:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Non muslims arent allowed to enter Makka and Madina not because Saudi Arabia wants to but because Allah didnt allow them

O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean spritually. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.




Ohh yah right i never knew this
Quote:
Originally Posted by *UofT*
Ohh yah right i never knew this


Jeeze, even I knew this. It was a great progressive idea but unfortunatly some like smussuw are still back in the 7th centuary and like the discrimination and exclusivity that it provides the likes of him.

Why act like "the other" is too dirty or too much a threat this day in age to dare enter the city I am not sure. You would think this day in age the xeno-phobia of it all would be widely considered a past historical necessity or reality but some want to live long in the past.

The only loser of the edict is really Islam itself when forigners are banned from even trying to appreciate or get an understanding of the experiance such an important place in Islam, all this as a result of arrogence and discrimination.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 08:35 PM   #20
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Nomar, the talk has been civil so far

Don't ruin this thread with a flame bait, As you can see there are differing intrepretations as to where the boundary of the "Muslim refuge" lies, and exactly which groups of people are not allowed entrance to the City.

From my knowledge during the Ottoman era, there were plenty of Chinese and far eastern visitors to Makkah and Madina.

You have to understand in the Pre - Islamic era there were plenty of Idolaters that called Makkah their home, The verse in the Quran can quite simply mean those Idolaters and not modern day religious groups.

Anyways This is my vision of Makkah
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