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Old December 22nd, 2015, 05:35 AM   #121
zoomwhoosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza667 View Post
Inter-city services would continue on the existing line into Central
Suburban services would go on the new line to Hurstville. On the Hornsby-Strathfield section they would run on their own track pair
So intercity services would continue to run on the mains track pair thus competing with western services and adding to unreliability. Or, they'd run on the suburban track pair, creating problems with that line.

And you miss the point that if you start sharing the track north of Strathfield, the entire line including that south of Strathfield is compromised. Not only does it mean an irregular timetable in the expensive new underground line to Hurstville, but it means that unreliability of those intercities contributes to the unreliability of the Strathfield to Hurstville section.

The simple fact is that if you built a new "metro" line from Strathfield to Hurstville, you would never run non-metro trains onto it. You'd either create a true metro north of Strathfield, or keep the northern line isolated from it.

Edit: Lets take this all to the Sydney PT thread, please.

Last edited by zoomwhoosh; December 22nd, 2015 at 05:47 AM.
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Old January 26th, 2016, 01:32 AM   #122
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Given the planned route runs through Camellia and heads north taking over the existing Carlingford line. Does anyone know what will happen to the existing Rosehill station connected to the racecourse given its not part of the announced route?

Do you think they will keep it and just use it for racedays or close it down entirely?
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Old August 31st, 2016, 12:21 PM   #123
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It will be interesting to see where this western light rail "network" ends up.

Based on existing released plans there are two sections that seem quite problematic. For the eventual Macquarie Park line, the "Stage 2" extension from Carlingford to Epping and "Stage 3" extension from Epping to Macquarie Park are difficult and expensive. I think Stage 2 is actually doable despite them not knowing how yet but wont be cheap to get the line across (or under) Pennant Hills Rd to Carlingford Rd.

I personally think that Stage 3 is a waste due to duplicating the Metro but I would imagine they would look to add some more density to help justify the extension to Macquarie Park. I guess by the time they look to extend we may see the 15- 20 TPH NW Metro well patronised anyway so it may help with the justification too.

The second part that is not straight forward is the Banksown extension. Stage 1 from Bankstown Heavy Rail Station to Birong Heavy Rail Station is dead simple but disconnects the line to Bankstown (from all outer lines unless the Metro is extended from Bankstown to Liverpool) so surely it must go further to interchange with the Double Deck Heavy Rail line from Liverpool to Lidcombe via Regants Park. That may be tricky depending on how its done.

Stage 2 is mostly simple but has some real tricky parts. The line running from Camelia through Rose Hill down to Clyde just uses the existing heavy rail corridor, then it has to run over the Western Heavy Rail lines to reach Clyde street. From here its a simple straight run down Clyde street to Chester Hill. From there it gets really tricky, there are a few options to get to the heavy rail line at Birong, none look easy or cheap though.

However even TNSW themselves say that this is a long term goal as its still faster to use Heavy Rail from Bankstown to Lidcombe via Regants Park and change to get to Parramatta. So this line is relying on substantial increases in density to justify its funding. So I expect to see Sydney Trains Double Deckers running between Liverpool, Bankstown and Lidcombe for many decades yet. Probably the same to Rosehill as well.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 12:24 PM   #124
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western sydney councils have proposed another lin on the parramatta to liverpool tway, does anyone have more info, its an election promise for the upcoming council elections
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Old August 31st, 2016, 02:12 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OZ Rails View Post
It will be interesting to see where this western light rail "network" ends up.

Based on existing released plans there are two sections that seem quite problematic. For the eventual Macquarie Park line, the "Stage 2" extension from Carlingford to Epping and "Stage 3" extension from Epping to Macquarie Park are difficult and expensive. I think Stage 2 is actually doable despite them not knowing how yet but wont be cheap to get the line across (or under) Pennant Hills Rd to Carlingford Rd.

I personally think that Stage 3 is a waste due to duplicating the Metro but I would imagine they would look to add some more density to help justify the extension to Macquarie Park. I guess by the time they look to extend we may see the 15- 20 TPH NW Metro well patronised anyway so it may help with the justification too.

The second part that is not straight forward is the Banksown extension. Stage 1 from Bankstown Heavy Rail Station to Birong Heavy Rail Station is dead simple but disconnects the line to Bankstown (from all outer lines unless the Metro is extended from Bankstown to Liverpool) so surely it must go further to interchange with the Double Deck Heavy Rail line from Liverpool to Lidcombe via Regants Park. That may be tricky depending on how its done.

Stage 2 is mostly simple but has some real tricky parts. The line running from Camelia through Rose Hill down to Clyde just uses the existing heavy rail corridor, then it has to run over the Western Heavy Rail lines to reach Clyde street. From here its a simple straight run down Clyde street to Chester Hill. From there it gets really tricky, there are a few options to get to the heavy rail line at Birong, none look easy or cheap though.

However even TNSW themselves say that this is a long term goal as its still faster to use Heavy Rail from Bankstown to Lidcombe via Regants Park and change to get to Parramatta. So this line is relying on substantial increases in density to justify its funding. So I expect to see Sydney Trains Double Deckers running between Liverpool, Bankstown and Lidcombe for many decades yet. Probably the same to Rosehill as well.
If the south west Metro does get extended from Bankstown to Liverpool (via the aerodrome) then the fast way to Parramatta is to change at Liverpool, (so long as the Cumberland is frequent enough). That pretty much makes all of the existing Regents Park / Villawood / Birrong DD line ripe for conversion to light rail, with a multitude of possible routes, both on the DD rail reserve as well as branching onto streets such as Clyde St as you've mentioned.

Double Deckers running short trips between Liverpool, Bankstown and Lidcombe is obviously a short term measure.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 03:06 PM   #126
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If the south west Metro does get extended from Bankstown to Liverpool (via the aerodrome) then the fast way to Parramatta is to change at Liverpool, (so long as the Cumberland is frequent enough). That pretty much makes all of the existing Regents Park / Villawood / Birrong DD line ripe for conversion to light rail, with a multitude of possible routes, both on the DD rail reserve as well as branching onto streets such as Clyde St as you've mentioned.

Double Deckers running short trips between Liverpool, Bankstown and Lidcombe is obviously a short term measure.
I don't think that is their plan, while things can change of course, although it was an option they considered they have confirmed they are not using the Lidcombe/ Sefton/ Cabramatta line for Light Rail. They have also confirmed that their plans for Light Rail to deliver increased connectivity between Parramatta and Bankstown is via Camelia/ Clyde St/ Birong and that is a long term option only due to the slow the travel times compared to the existing Heavy Rail travel times.

So it appears they are keeping the DD fast path from Liverpool to Lidcombe via Cabramatta and Regants Park long term. I would suggest Freight may have played a part in that decision. I agree that between Bankstown and Parramatta direct the fastest route would be via Bankstown Airport if they extend the Metro but that doesn't mean that they will automatically get rid of the DDs servicing the stations in between Cabramatta Lidcombe and Bankstown.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 04:16 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OZ Rails View Post
It will be interesting to see where this western light rail "network" ends up.

Based on existing released plans there are two sections that seem quite problematic. For the eventual Macquarie Park line, the "Stage 2" extension from Carlingford to Epping and "Stage 3" extension from Epping to Macquarie Park are difficult and expensive. I think Stage 2 is actually doable despite them not knowing how yet but wont be cheap to get the line across (or under) Pennant Hills Rd to Carlingford Rd.

I personally think that Stage 3 is a waste due to duplicating the Metro but I would imagine they would look to add some more density to help justify the extension to Macquarie Park. I guess by the time they look to extend we may see the 15- 20 TPH NW Metro well patronised anyway so it may help with the justification too.
At a community forum in Epping several months ago a TfNSW representative confirmed that investigations for extension of the Light Rail from Carlingford to Epping were ongoing, but there appeared to be serious obstacles to its implementation. I'm not surprised. I agree that a "Stage 3" extension from Epping to Macquarie Park, aside from the physical difficulty of traversing the Epping Town Centre, would be a complete waste as it would only duplicate the metro link.

I wouldn't be surprised if TfNSW revisited the route from the Carlingford Line at Dundas to Macquarie Park via Eastwood which is the most direct and along the existing Eastwood County Rd reservation. This was the preferred option in Parramatta City Council's original feasibility study and yet strangely didn't even rate a mention in the State Government's shortlist of route options. It is conceivable that a combined upgraded road and light rail link could be a possibility along the County Rd corridor as a major transport connection between Parramatta and Macquarie Park.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 04:54 PM   #128
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Heard on ABC radio's Tony Delroy program tonight "what the papers say". The SMH is going to have an article about plans to build a metro from the city through White Bay to Parramatta, with a possible extension to the east.

That's all I heard.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 07:57 PM   #129
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Heard on ABC radio's Tony Delroy program tonight "what the papers say". The SMH is going to have an article about plans to build a metro from the city through White Bay to Parramatta, with a possible extension to the east.

That's all I heard.
Here is a link:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/revealed-n...0160831-gr5d6m

Quote:
A new metro line between Sydney's Central Business District and Parramatta will be the next major public transport project initiated by the NSW government, but might come at the expense of parts of Parramatta's planned light rail network.

Senior sources have confirmed planning is underway for the metro line, intended to bring long-needed relief to Sydney's western rail corridor and service growth areas, such as the Bays Precinct around Rozelle and the former industrial lands at Camellia.

The project could also include a future expansion to a Badgerys Creek airport to the west, and is likely to also contemplate an eastward expansion to Maroubra and Long Bay.

But one option being considered is cutting back the scope of the proposed light rail line between Parramatta and Strathfield via Olympic Park, though it is understood no decision has yet been made on that idea.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 01:18 AM   #130
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At a community forum in Epping several months ago a TfNSW representative confirmed that investigations for extension of the Light Rail from Carlingford to Epping were ongoing, but there appeared to be serious obstacles to its implementation. I'm not surprised. I agree that a "Stage 3" extension from Epping to Macquarie Park, aside from the physical difficulty of traversing the Epping Town Centre, would be a complete waste as it would only duplicate the metro link.

I wouldn't be surprised if TfNSW revisited the route from the Carlingford Line at Dundas to Macquarie Park via Eastwood which is the most direct and along the existing Eastwood County Rd reservation. This was the preferred option in Parramatta City Council's original feasibility study and yet strangely didn't even rate a mention in the State Government's shortlist of route options. It is conceivable that a combined upgraded road and light rail link could be a possibility along the County Rd corridor as a major transport connection between Parramatta and Macquarie Park.

TNSW hasn't really detailed their exact reasons for choosing the Carlingford option, I suspect its as simple as the line being there and there being an existing (although old) costed plan to take rail from Carlingford to Epping. It can be done and I think that it opens good opportunities for redevelopment along the length of Carlingford Rd but time will tell.

So far they said only the following:

6.2.4 Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Carlingford and Epping

Without a strong public transport connection from Macquarie Park into Western Sydney, significant congestion will continue on the arterial road links such as Epping Road, Carlingford Road and Pennant Hills Road. The PTCS showed that a light rail connection to Macquarie Park could present a significant opportunity to support planned land use changes, to extend the Global Economic Corridor and to strengthen Greater Parramatta as Sydney’s second CBD.

This route to Macquarie Park via Carlingford was selected over the other Macquarie Park route (via Eastwood) as it presented fewer environmental and construction risks. Furthermore, the analysis showed that there was a significant opportunity to replace the indirect and low frequency Carlingford heavy rail line service with a frequent light rail service, which would greatly enhance accessibility to Parramatta and the wider public transport network.

6.3.6 Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood

This route was assessed as the weaker of the two route options to Macquarie Park. Compared to the Macquarie Park via Carlingford and Epping route (see 6.2.4), this route presented a lower level of public
transport demand and offered fewer opportunities for urban renewal.


Parramatta to Macquarie Park

TfNSW’s assessment showed that light rail would help to meet strong and growing transport demand in the Parramatta to Macquarie Park corridor and could link key residential, education and commercial precincts, including the WSU Rydalmere Campus, the Rydalmere Industrial Precinct and Telopea. The majority of these Parramatta Light Rail – How the preferred network was determined 32 benefits were found to be between Parramatta and Epping due to Sydney Metro North West providing a new fast transport connection between Epping and Macquarie Park.

Investigations also showed a number of engineering challenges and high costs in constructing light rail beyond Carlingford, due to a change in grade between the heavy rail line and Carlingford town centre, and the impact on a number major road intersections and structures.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 04:05 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by OZ Rails View Post
TNSW hasn't really detailed their exact reasons for choosing the Carlingford option, I suspect its as simple as the line being there and there being an existing (although old) costed plan to take rail from Carlingford to Epping. It can be done and I think that it opens good opportunities for redevelopment along the length of Carlingford Rd but time will tell.

So far they said only the following:

6.2.4 Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Carlingford and Epping

Without a strong public transport connection from Macquarie Park into Western Sydney, significant congestion will continue on the arterial road links such as Epping Road, Carlingford Road and Pennant Hills Road. The PTCS showed that a light rail connection to Macquarie Park could present a significant opportunity to support planned land use changes, to extend the Global Economic Corridor and to strengthen Greater Parramatta as Sydney’s second CBD.

This route to Macquarie Park via Carlingford was selected over the other Macquarie Park route (via Eastwood) as it presented fewer environmental and construction risks. Furthermore, the analysis showed that there was a significant opportunity to replace the indirect and low frequency Carlingford heavy rail line service with a frequent light rail service, which would greatly enhance accessibility to Parramatta and the wider public transport network.

6.3.6 Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood

This route was assessed as the weaker of the two route options to Macquarie Park. Compared to the Macquarie Park via Carlingford and Epping route (see 6.2.4), this route presented a lower level of public
transport demand and offered fewer opportunities for urban renewal.


Parramatta to Macquarie Park

TfNSW’s assessment showed that light rail would help to meet strong and growing transport demand in the Parramatta to Macquarie Park corridor and could link key residential, education and commercial precincts, including the WSU Rydalmere Campus, the Rydalmere Industrial Precinct and Telopea. The majority of these Parramatta Light Rail – How the preferred network was determined 32 benefits were found to be between Parramatta and Epping due to Sydney Metro North West providing a new fast transport connection between Epping and Macquarie Park.

Investigations also showed a number of engineering challenges and high costs in constructing light rail beyond Carlingford, due to a change in grade between the heavy rail line and Carlingford town centre, and the impact on a number major road intersections and structures.
I think you're correct in suggesting that the only reason why the Carlingford option was chosen was because the existing rail line is already there and previous plans had been for a rail link (underground) to Epping. However, circumstances have now changed. It's not as straight forward to construct a surface light rail link. For a start, apart from the change in grade from the Carlingford Line to Carlingford Rd and the means of constructing it without expensive tunnelling, Carlingford Rd would have to be widened from its current 4 lanes to at least 6 lanes to accommodate the light rail tracks. This would involve expensive wholesale resumptions along the total length of Carlingford Rd. Most of the southern side of Carlingford Rd within a reasonable distance of Pennant Hills Rd has already been developed with 5 storey blocks of units. There is potential for similar redevelopment on the northern side, now under the administration of Parramatta Council. Beyond that, there is current redevelopment taking place closer to the Epping Town Centre. With an intermediate light rail stop between Carlingford and Epping unlikely, there is no incentive for higher density redevelopment on the rest of the corridor.

The statement that "This route to Macquarie Park via Carlingford was selected over the other Macquarie Park route (via Eastwood) as it presented fewer environmental and construction risks" is laughable. The so called "environmental risks" would no doubt refer to the crossing of Brush Farm Park. This has been part of the County Road reservation for over 60 years and it's a bit late in the day to now declare it off limits. The former RTA had proposed an arch bridge across the gully which would avoid any major impact on the reserve below. If the government was really so concerned, then they should abolish the County Road reservation altogether, but I can't see that happening any time soon. As for "construction risks", I suggest there are none compared with the route from Carlingford to Epping. It's a complete furphy. When you consider that the Eastwood option is along an existing 6 lane corridor (Kissing Point Rd) and the reserved 6 lane with median Eastwood County Road corridor, there's no comparison. It's the most direct route as well. It was the preferred option in Parramatta City Council's independent feasibility study which was prepared by reputable transport consultants. The Carlingford/Epping route was eliminated in the early stages of the investigation. I would put more credence in that report than I would with anything coming out of TfNSW.

TfNSW's assertion that the Eastwood route is the weaker of the two options because of lower public transport demand and offered fewer opportunities for urban renewal is questionable. Have they ever been to Eastwood? It's the largest retail/commercial centre on the Northern Line between Strathfield and Hornsby and yet hasn't been able to realise its full potential because of the lack of support by Ryde Council to update the Town Centre Master Plan. The light rail route via Eastwood would be a catalyst for urban renewal. As well as within the Town Centre itself, there are significant redevelopment opportunities along the County Road corridor (First Ave & Rutledge St). It offers the same benefits as a route via Carlingford and Epping, with a more direct extension of the Global Economic Corridor. It also connects directly with the NW metro at Macquarie University, without the need to change at Epping, as well as interchanging with suburban and intercity train services on the Northern Line. It's a no-brainer.

A route via Eastwood doesn't preclude the conversion of the Carlingford Line as far as Carlingford to light rail which would be complementary.

Last edited by woodies; September 1st, 2016 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Additional comment
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Old September 1st, 2016, 05:07 PM   #132
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Old September 30th, 2016, 04:03 PM   #133
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Any further news on light rail link from Parramatta to Strathfield in view of proposed metro link from CBD to Parramatta?
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 06:56 PM   #134
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Change of course looms for multibillion-dollar Parramatta light rail

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/change-of-...29-grrg7s.html

The planned multi-million-dollar Parramatta light rail project is expected to be built in two stages, reflecting a growing priority within government for a new metro line linking Sydney's central business district and the west.

Instead of constructing the light rail line in one fell swoop as originally planned, sources say there is now a push within the transport bureaucracy to defer the construction of a section of the line between Camellia and Strathfield.



A change in tack would mean the first stage to be built would be from Westmead to Carlingford via Parramatta and Camellia.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 12:06 PM   #135
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If the line is to be duplicated by a metro between Camellia and Strathfield maybe they should look at an extension between Camellia and Rhodes via the new green bridge and Wentworth Point instead.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 12:37 PM   #136
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Or head south from Camellia............
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 01:20 PM   #137
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 05:44 PM   #138
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Or perhaps revive original recommendation to Macquarie Park via Eastwood, with a branch to Carlingford.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 06:33 PM   #139
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South from Camellia would be the future branch to Bankstown. Give it time
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 06:51 PM   #140
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Q: Why does Parramatta need a light rail?

A billion dollars for a suburban rail line is a bit rich considering. The Parramatta area already has a functioning bus system and doesn't have too much traffic. Surely if they needed a little more transport they could just add a few more bus services?
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