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Old Yesterday, 07:51 AM   #241
gandhi.rushabh1992
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Whatever.

This project has no socio-economic basis and no basis in Hindu scriptures. Moreover, Amitabh Kant is no genius, he is dreamer who thinks that all monetary transactions in India will be digital in 2 years time. This should show you how out of touch he is. Modi should put in credible people in important/influential positions.
So childish

Sad you cant even troll properly.
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Old Yesterday, 11:24 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Arjun_M View Post
We may not need something so extreme. Motorised LHB coaches in EMU formation are enough, at 160 km/h maximum speed. Maybe the speed can go up to 200 km/h wherever needed. Still, 50% axles have to be powered.
I don't think we need more than 2 regular locos for a semi-HS train maxing out at 200 kmph. At these speeds, powered axles might be unnecessary, IMO...Ofcourse for HS speeds (225 kmph+), motorized axles will be needed, and given current LHB coach designs, it will be more complex than merely modifying designs to incorporate local traction (and learning how to mould aluminum, ofcourse)...my gut feel is that the learning curve is a lot steeper than it looks in the first instance...
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Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM   #243
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To run higher-speed trains with locomotives, IR has deleted most of the stops and reduced the number of coaches drastically. It still hasn't helped enough. They need a higher top speed to cover distances faster- higher than any track in the network will allow. The generous distribution of traction in an EMU can cover many long distances a lot faster.

ICF have already designed the new Kolkata Metro train, which has all the features needed. They may be developing a similar product on the LHB platform, under the Train-18 initiative. Steel is good enough for now. Once they acquire the technology to build aluminium shells or just shells from an external provider, they can proceed further.
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Old Today, 04:21 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by blackgold27 View Post
who cares a f*** about u. japan has bullet train. that doesnt mean japan doesnt have any poor people. there are lot of issues in japan too. but they have bullet train because there are people who can pay the high price of ticket for such bullet trains & there are customer for those bullet trains. in india they have done some study & they have customers thats why they are building bullet trains. shivaji statue is also required otherwise how can people remember the greatness of those heroes without which we would not enjoy freedom today. if u dont like shivaji statue then dont stay in mumbai. go to some different city. we will finance shivaji statue.
Please watch your language. How to behave, act , and think is all written in India's ancient texts and your behavior on this forums is inconsistent with that. Moreover with your vulgar language "don't give a f---" you are trying to copy/imitate Americans. This shows me that your ideas are hollow because you can't be true to yourself and true to India and India's ancient culture.

As for me, I simply disagree with these type of projects - yes there are some positive aspects - though I believe that money would be better spent on basic services - education, healthcare, waste disposal, cleanliness, environmental protection, etc.

Somebody has to be the Vikarna and register a vote of disapproval. Anyway, I've said what I was going to say so let's let this discussion end and move on.
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Old Today, 05:15 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjun_M View Post
To run higher-speed trains with locomotives, IR has deleted most of the stops and reduced the number of coaches drastically. It still hasn't helped enough. They need a higher top speed to cover distances faster- higher than any track in the network will allow. The generous distribution of traction in an EMU can cover many long distances a lot faster.

ICF have already designed the new Kolkata Metro train, which has all the features needed. They may be developing a similar product on the LHB platform, under the Train-18 initiative. Steel is good enough for now. Once they acquire the technology to build aluminium shells or just shells from an external provider, they can proceed further.


Arjun, as in most of the Diesel engines, the drive is finally through electric motor. ( Diesel electric drive).
Now my question:
1. Is it possible to have a electricity generating Diesel engine somewhere in the train and supplying electric power to various drive motors fitted in the coaches.?
2. Is DEMU same concept.

Thanks
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Old Today, 06:03 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post
Please watch your language. How to behave, act , and think is all written in India's ancient texts and your behavior on this forums is inconsistent with that. Moreover with your vulgar language "don't give a f---" you are trying to copy/imitate Americans. This shows me that your ideas are hollow because you can't be true to yourself and true to India and India's ancient culture.

As for me, I simply disagree with these type of projects - yes there are some positive aspects - though I believe that money would be better spent on basic services - education, healthcare, waste disposal, cleanliness, environmental protection, etc.

Somebody has to be the Vikarna and register a vote of disapproval. Anyway, I've said what I was going to say so let's let this discussion end and move on.

You know what Jeffrey what I love about Fiberals. When they had such a huge chance of making a change on your quoted lines
Quote:
education, healthcare, waste disposal, cleanliness, environmental protection, etc.
, they were busy filling in their own coffers, let the poor be damned but elites continued with their cocktail parties and golf sessions, urban areas electrified while rural areas faced dark ages, never a thought about climate change & cleanliness. The ilk done lip service in yesteryears and still do with a straight innocent face as if only in the past 3 years, India moved to a collosal chaos.

Correction Jeffrey- What you whine about are something that has been grossly neglected for decades. It was mere lip service to serve the poor but these issues only got momentum in the last 3 years which is called taking the bull by its horns. And yet you guys mock on those steps. You mock on toilets for the poor, blind to rural electrification, blind to India taking steps to ratify Paris agreement, stress on protection of environment, cleanliness.

What does the Fiberals do? If a target is set that by 2030 India will run electric vehicles, the same ilk without even cross verifying facts start pedalling negative narratives- "where is the infrastructure?". The same way Fiberals just woke up to "villages don't have electricity, don't have mobiles, dont have internet, dont have banks". I mean seriously?? When there were so many intellectuals that keep on dictating noble philosophies couldn't drive the same in 7 decades?

Anyway, let me make you aware in case you are still ignorant. Bullet train funds are completely separate from Railway Budget. So the former is not touching any money of the latter nor the government paying anything now. Hence rest your case. If fence sitting is over, then please know that India has a target to reach Sustainable goals. So Indian government knows what they are doing instead of some lost souls who are not only directionless but opportunistic.

And in case, you are still in La La land, then go through these-

ndia not a climate villain despite 65% rise in coal use by 2040, even as China cuts down

Each household in India will save Rs 50,000 per year from Swachh Bharat mission: UNICEF

Gorakhpur Koraput and Thane to launch Zero Hunger Programme on October 16

How Japan's bullet train can transform Indian Railways into a global leader in size, scale

And let me remind you, India is on a roll. Its going to take time to clean up the 7 decade mess. Hence, there can be two things about an Indian citizen- Be a progressive thinker or be a fence sitter- the latter doesn't help India grow but belittles India in every aspect.
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Old Today, 06:36 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Wonderbank View Post
You know what Jeffrey what I love about Fiberals. When they had such a huge chance of making a change on your quoted lines , they were busy filling in their own coffers, let the poor be damned but elites continued with their cocktail parties and golf sessions, urban areas electrified while rural areas faced dark ages, never a thought about climate change & cleanliness. The ilk done lip service in yesteryears and still do with a straight innocent face as if only in the past 3 years, India moved to a collosal chaos.

Correction Jeffrey- What you whine about are something that has been grossly neglected for decades. It was mere lip service to serve the poor but these issues only got momentum in the last 3 years which is called taking the bull by its horns. And yet you guys mock on those steps. You mock on toilets for the poor, blind to rural electrification, blind to India taking steps to ratify Paris agreement, stress on protection of environment, cleanliness.

What does the Fiberals do? If a target is set that by 2030 India will run electric vehicles, the same ilk without even cross verifying facts start pedalling negative narratives- "where is the infrastructure?". The same way Fiberals just woke up to "villages don't have electricity, don't have mobiles, dont have internet, dont have banks". I mean seriously?? When there were so many intellectuals that keep on dictating noble philosophies couldn't drive the same in 7 decades?

Anyway, let me make you aware in case you are still ignorant. Bullet train funds are completely separate from Railway Budget. So the former is not touching any money of the latter nor the government paying anything now. Hence rest your case. If fence sitting is over, then please know that India has a target to reach Sustainable goals. So Indian government knows what they are doing instead of some lost souls who are not only directionless but opportunistic.

And in case, you are still in La La land, then go through these-

ndia not a climate villain despite 65% rise in coal use by 2040, even as China cuts down

Each household in India will save Rs 50,000 per year from Swachh Bharat mission: UNICEF

Gorakhpur Koraput and Thane to launch Zero Hunger Programme on October 16

How Japan's bullet train can transform Indian Railways into a global leader in size, scale

And let me remind you, India is on a roll. Its going to take time to clean up the 7 decade mess. Hence, there can be two things about an Indian citizen- Be a progressive thinker or be a fence sitter- the latter doesn't help India grow but belittles India in every aspect.
I may agree or disagree with him but atleast he is right in saying not to use swear words in the forum.
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Old Today, 07:38 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by desert_king View Post
I may agree or disagree with him but atleast he is right in saying not to use swear words in the forum.
That is universal for everyone not to use cuss words in this forum and should be reported to admin for any such behaviour. That is a SSC norm. However my pointers are in debate to his POV.
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Old Today, 10:59 AM   #249
PrimusUrbisIndis
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Originally Posted by Arjun_M View Post
To run higher-speed trains with locomotives, IR has deleted most of the stops and reduced the number of coaches drastically. It still hasn't helped enough. They need a higher top speed to cover distances faster- higher than any track in the network will allow. The generous distribution of traction in an EMU can cover many long distances a lot faster.

ICF have already designed the new Kolkata Metro train, which has all the features needed. They may be developing a similar product on the LHB platform, under the Train-18 initiative. Steel is good enough for now. Once they acquire the technology to build aluminium shells or just shells from an external provider, they can proceed further.
Logically, it will be more beneficial for IR to quickly pick up technology for aluminum shell manufacturing/moulding ASAP...this will have a positive effect on operating costs and pollution control, irrespective of whether the trainsets are diesel or electric powered, and are either semi-HS or full-HS. We should not wait for semi-HS with steel bodies to be deployed before reworking the entire fleet when aluminum shells become available. I do not know the details of the Kolkata metro trains (new ones), but if they have motorized axles, then they should also have traction motors at regular intervals, which eats away space meant for pax seats, shouldn't they??? That concept may not necessarily work for LHB coaches in long-distance trains...you will need a different design where the traction is driven under-carriage...
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Old Today, 12:20 PM   #250
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A IIM-A report on the progress of HSR in India since its inception in 2005 can be found here...I had come across a video by Vinod Dua, where he completely destroys the argument for HSR using this report (I think) - I didn't find anything in this report that was contrarian in this report, but then, journos these days can dissect and mis-interpret facts to suit their own agendas!!!
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Old Today, 01:54 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimusUrbisIndis View Post
Logically, it will be more beneficial for IR to quickly pick up technology for aluminum shell manufacturing/moulding ASAP...this will have a positive effect on operating costs and pollution control, irrespective of whether the trainsets are diesel or electric powered, and are either semi-HS or full-HS. We should not wait for semi-HS with steel bodies to be deployed before reworking the entire fleet when aluminum shells become available. I do not know the details of the Kolkata metro trains (new ones), but if they have motorized axles, then they should also have traction motors at regular intervals, which eats away space meant for pax seats, shouldn't they??? That concept may not necessarily work for LHB coaches in long-distance trains...you will need a different design where the traction is driven under-carriage...
Can the technology transfer agreement allow us to acquire technology to build aluminium shells? For purposes besides bullet trains? That will certainly help. The proposed aluminium factory at Palakkad is a non-starter, so this is the only way. That will take time.

The design of the EMU you're thinking about is the 1930s Jessop design, which RDSO repeatedly enforces on the factories, which I have repeatedly criticised. ICF, though, have built more modern trains for Kolkata Metro with all gear under the floor. Those modules are quite compact and fit under a coach neatly, and every second coach can be motorised and the design configured for intercity. They know how to build such a train. RDSO never let them.

Siemens have built a new generation of second - tier HSR that can also do duty in regular intercity trips. It actually has steel shells made by Bombardier. That's actually a surprise.
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Old Today, 05:25 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Arjun_M View Post
Can the technology transfer agreement allow us to acquire technology to build aluminium shells? For purposes besides bullet trains? That will certainly help. The proposed aluminium factory at Palakkad is a non-starter, so this is the only way. That will take time.
I am not sure why MoR was adamant to go the PPP route with this...Aluminum, as a raw material, is more expensive than steel, and with worldwide consolidation, there aren't too many specialized suppliers who are going to be competitive - this means the RoC for whichever foreign tech partner that manufactures these shells will be very less...this ought to have been a strategic partnership (with ToT under attractive T&Cs) under a gov2gov MoU, and not an open bid...

Quote:
The design of the EMU you're thinking about is the 1930s Jessop design, which RDSO repeatedly enforces on the factories, which I have repeatedly criticised.
Actually, the body shells are of 1955 vintage (Swiss Car & Elevator Manufacturing Co.)

Quote:
ICF, though, have built more modern trains for Kolkata Metro with all gear under the floor. Those modules are quite compact and fit under a coach neatly, and every second coach can be motorised and the design configured for intercity. They know how to build such a train. RDSO never let them.

Siemens have built a new generation of second - tier HSR that can also do duty in regular intercity trips. It actually has steel shells made by Bombardier. That's actually a surprise.
I guess its time to give up on steel altogether, just for the sake of energy efficiency, if not anything else...Siemens might not be the best choice, considering allegations of bribery in their past dealings with IR, but Bombardier can definitely deliver...
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Old Today, 07:50 PM   #253
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Aluminium coaches don't look to be that difficult. It Is more a case of balancing higher initial cost against lower operating costs. Indian bureaucratic system does not recognise this concept (suspects its fraudulent) and many ideas get quashed. So we tread water till some foreign technology transfer makes it OK

article from 2003. Nalco was proposing this idea because it wanted to expand the use of aluminium . There is no shortage

Aluminium rail coaches likely soon


http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/sep/23rail1.htm

Quote:
Fakir Chand in Bangalore | September 23, 2003 17:49 IST

If Indian Railways has its way, the day is not far when commuters would get to travel in much lighter and faster state-of-the-art aluminium coaches.
India's two largest public sector enterprises, the Bangalore-based Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and the Bhubaneswar-based National Aluminium Company Ltd will soon be building the country's first prototype coaches for trial runs by the Railways.

With the railway ministry endorsing the proposal of the Aluminium Association of India to manufacture aluminium rail coaches after conducting a techno-eco study recently, BEML and Nalco are set to sign a memorandum of understanding by this year-end to design and develop the prototype.

"We are waiting for clearance from the Railway Board to go ahead with the project. The railway ministry is scheduling a meeting with us in a fortnight for working out the modalities, cost structure and the potential," BEML chairman and managing director V R S Natarajan told rediff.com in Bangalore on Tuesday.
As one of the leading suppliers of freight wagons and passenger coaches to the railways over the decades, BEML has already expanded its product portfolio to roll out stainless steel metro coaches for the Delhi Metro Rail in joint collaboration with Rotem of Korea.

"Since aluminium coaches will be lighter than steel, traveling in them will not only be more comfortable, but also cheaper for maintaining and operating.
"Aluminium being lighter, its coaches will consume less fuel or electrical power as proven in developed countries like Korea and Japan," Natarajan stated.
Concurring with Natarajan, Nalco chairman and managing director C Venkataramana said though the initial cost of producing aluminium coaches would be 2-3 times more than steel, they will prove to be more efficient and cost effective, operationally and in the long term.
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Old Today, 08:09 PM   #254
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Another problem with Aluminium coaches is a poor utilisation. If your asset is more expensive, its utilisation needs to be maximised. The system likes churning out low quality cheap coaches and rail wagons that are poorly utilised. We had this discussion with rail box cars - only the basic design is preferred and specialised freight wagons are rarely used
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Old Today, 08:32 PM   #255
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Last post on this then I'll shut up Steel makers are offering ultra high strength steel alloys (UHSS) like boron steel. So there are a number of solutions to making a vehicle body structure lighter and stronger

IR could start by making body panels out of aluminium and work on structural parts on a case by case basis. That's what a modern progressive organisation would be working on
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Old Today, 08:34 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by carrera7 View Post
Another problem with Aluminium coaches is a poor utilisation. If your asset is more expensive, its utilisation needs to be maximised. The system likes churning out low quality cheap coaches and rail wagons that are poorly utilised. We had this discussion with rail box cars - only the basic design is preferred and specialised freight wagons are rarely used
I don't get the direction of your logic, but it is a fact that Aluminium (and products made out of it) are more expensive than steel (per unit weight and volume). By that logic, their utilization should be more...

Anyways, it is noteworthy that Aluminium alloys are also less corrosion resistant than mild steel (used in ICF coaches)...this has an impact on their life span...

Anyways, watch this and have a good laugh!!!
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Old Today, 08:49 PM   #257
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I don't get the direction of your logic, but it is a fact that Aluminium (and products made out of it) are more expensive than steel (per unit weight and volume). By that logic, their utilization should be more...

Anyways, it is noteworthy that Aluminium alloys are also less corrosion resistant than mild steel (used in ICF coaches)...this has an impact on their life span...

Anyways, watch this and have a good laugh!!!
Utilisation is uptime / time period.

If you introduce expensive coaches in an traditional outfit like IR, chances are the utilisation of the coach will not go up significantly. Most of the time the coach will be sitting around doing nothing. You have to make managerial changes. In this bullet train project, note that 1000s of people are being trained . That's important

In metro system, an entire operations and maintenance structure was imported, with the latest management techniques and technologies. Hard to see this in a traditional organisation like IR. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but this is also what I've seen

Kejriwal is a ranter.
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Old Today, 09:06 PM   #258
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Last post on this then I'll shut up Steel makers are offering ultra high strength steel alloys (UHSS) like boron steel. So there are a number of solutions to making a vehicle body structure lighter and stronger

IR could start by making body panels out of aluminium and work on structural parts on a case by case basis. That's what a modern progressive organisation would be working on
B-steel is lighter than other forms of steel, but still no match for Aluminum in terms of specific gravity...of course it is one of the stronger forms of steel used for non-specialized commercial uses...

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Utilisation is uptime / time period.

If you introduce expensive coaches in an traditional outfit like IR, chances are the utilisation of the coach will not go up significantly. Most of the time the coach will be sitting around doing nothing.
Thankfully LHB coach utilization seems to be pretty efficient when compared to ICF ones...
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Old Today, 09:20 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by carrera7 View Post
Another problem with Aluminium coaches is a poor utilisation. If your asset is more expensive, its utilisation needs to be maximised. The system likes churning out low quality cheap coaches and rail wagons that are poorly utilised. We had this discussion with rail box cars - only the basic design is preferred and specialised freight wagons are rarely used
On a very long route such as Delhi to Chennai, or Mumbai to Kolkata, more rolling hours are logged between maintenance. Aluminium coaches are supposed to cost less to maintain. Let's also not forget the concept of rake sharing - after doing duty in one service, it gets rolled into another, within hours. When a bunch of steel coaches causing a huge expense of energy are replaced by aluminium, the energy saving is intense - it needs large volumes.
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Old Today, 09:29 PM   #260
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B-steel is lighter than other forms of steel, but still no match for Aluminum in terms of specific gravity...of course it is one of the stronger forms of steel used for non-specialized commercial uses...
Its apparently not that hard to machine. But other materials like carbon fibre also need to be considered. They are starting to appear on luxury cars like BMW 7 series

Quote:

Thankfully LHB coach utilization seems to be pretty efficient when compared to ICF ones...
that's good to know - maybe I was being pessimistic . I've always seen expensive equipment poorly utilised

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Originally Posted by Arjun_M View Post

Let's also not forget the concept of rake sharing - after doing duty in one service, it gets rolled into another, within hours. .
that's the sort of thing that needs to be looked at . there needs to be training on how to keep the coach in constant operation
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