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Old July 22nd, 2013, 06:39 PM   #11941
JohnM Indy
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Originally Posted by moochie View Post
The "southern migration" was the decades after the civil war when former slaves got on trains heading north, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes not so voluntarily.. is that correct?
My guess is that CDC is talking not just about the "Great Migration" of former slaves and their descendants, but also the migration of white southerners seeking industrial jobs, which gives certain parts of Indianapolis and other midwestern cities a bit of an Appalachian feel.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 07:54 PM   #11942
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My guess is that CDC is talking not just about the "Great Migration" of former slaves and their descendants, but also the migration of white southerners seeking industrial jobs, which gives certain parts of Indianapolis and other midwestern cities a bit of an Appalachian feel.
Caucasian southerners and Appalachian people as well as African-Americans, those who migrated north in the Industrial era (1870-1970).

Thomas Sowell and others have written about the similarities between Appalachian and northern urbanized African-American cultures. Sowell, not flatteringly, called the Caucasian Appalachian culture "degenerate Elizabethan", and asserts that African-Americans adopted those ways. Part of it is the whole "demand respect, and fight until I get it", Hatfield-McCoy thing. It has a modern parallel...in the feuding teen gangs in Indy and elsewhere.

Poverty in Indy is pretty colorblind in my observation...even the intergenerational kind.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 07:57 PM   #11943
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Well, ok then, so a reason for the lack of "upward mobility" could be the various southern cultures' entrenched poverty increasing their presence in northern locales like Indy and Detroit? Am I reading that correctly?
I think that's my point. It also holds in Cincinnati and Columbus, two other cities that received a lot of Appalachian migrants over time.

But again...it is strange that Appalachia itself has better intergenerational mobility.

Here we have a case of "the people who left" actually having less opportunity than their cousins who stayed behind???

Or did the migration itself open more opportunities to those left behind?
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 09:14 PM   #11944
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Sweet! http://www.insideindianabusiness.com...m.asp?ID=60474

Now to cut taxes further. Also Texas take note. You are not the only business friendly state in town now. Better business climate=more jobs and a better city. People move where the jobs are. So lets keep em coming.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 09:38 PM   #11945
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Sweet! http://www.insideindianabusiness.com...m.asp?ID=60474

Now to cut taxes further. Also Texas take note. You are not the only business friendly state in town now. Better business climate=more jobs and a better city. People move where the jobs are. So lets keep em coming.
I've known a number of people recently to move to a city because they like the services and amenities that city offers, without a job lined up. I think you will find that younger people will tend to move places for a lifestyle without the promise of a job at that point. Our promise is low taxes at the cost of acceptable services and amenities.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 09:42 PM   #11946
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Well, assuming those who left, left for better financial opportunities, I'd assume that opportunities at home were lacking. If that's true, a large amount of low income people leaving an area en-masse may open up opportunities for the thinner and slightly more prosperous population left behind I'd think.

Perhaps they over-migrated due to a somewhat flawed perception of a lack of opportunity at home?
It seems to me counter-intuitive, and unlikely, that those who stayed behind got better educated (and thus, better opportunities) than those who left. Usually people who leave are the MOST motivated for advancement.

It's a very small sample (but more than an anecdote): All of the people of Appalachian birth I know very well are better off than their parents...my mother and her living siblings, the two cousins born in Appalachia, and a number of close friends in Ohio and Indiana. All but a couple are college-educated. But none of them stayed in Appalachia. I'm not sure if the intergenerational study counts them where they live as adults or where they started life.

One skewing factor: northern Appalachia has recently been through up cycles for coal mining (though down now) and natural gas fracking. Miners and drillers make good money when working.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 10:01 PM   #11947
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Caucasian southerners and Appalachian people as well as African-Americans, those who migrated north in the Industrial era (1870-1970).

Thomas Sowell and others have written about the similarities between Appalachian and northern urbanized African-American cultures. Sowell, not flatteringly, called the Caucasian Appalachian culture "degenerate Elizabethan", and asserts that African-Americans adopted those ways. Part of it is the whole "demand respect, and fight until I get it", Hatfield-McCoy thing. It has a modern parallel...in the feuding teen gangs in Indy and elsewhere.

Poverty in Indy is pretty colorblind in my observation...even the intergenerational kind.
Having been in raised in the Twin Cities, I can comment that, unlike here in Indianapolis, I never saw any large pockets of white poverty there. The Twin Cities' white population is regarded to be heavily made up of Scandinavian heritage. In recent years, domestic migration of lower income people was commonly believed to be made up heavily of African Americans from the Midwest, predominantly Chicago, Gary, & Detroit seeking better living conditions, but I'm not aware of any significant migration of lower-income whites from Appalachia or elsewhere.

This might sound naive, but it really shocked me when I first observed the large geographic areas of the south and southeast sides of Indy, that are predominately white where a culture of poverty appears to be heavily entrenched.
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Old July 22nd, 2013, 10:09 PM   #11948
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It seems to me counter-intuitive, and unlikely, that those who stayed behind got better educated (and thus, better opportunities) than those who left. Usually people who leave are the MOST motivated for advancement.

It's a very small sample (but more than an anecdote): All of the people of Appalachian birth I know very well are better off than their parents...my mother and her living siblings, the two cousins born in Appalachia, and a number of close friends in Ohio and Indiana. All but a couple are college-educated. But none of them stayed in Appalachia. I'm not sure if the intergenerational study counts them where they live as adults or where they started life.

One skewing factor: northern Appalachia has recently been through up cycles for coal mining (though down now) and natural gas fracking. Miners and drillers make good money when working.
I wasn't sure either whether they measured people who moved against their new surroundings or their hometowns.

I agree that it seems counter-intuitive that the exit of others would cause those remaining to be more successful. However, if you consider that they are only measuring against those remaining in their city, if a considerable portion of those in the 21st to 40th percentiles left, than those in the 1st to 20th percentiles would statistically immediately move up simply due to the void left by the exit of those slightly above them. Not sure if that's a possible explanation, but it might make sense to believe that the poorest of the poor might remain while those with slightly more resources to help relocate and get settled somewhere new would be more likely to leave (although that would contradict the popular story of people leaving with nothing but the clothes on their backs).
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 12:47 AM   #11949
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The study codes the region of a person at their 16th birthday. So no matter where they are from, for the purposes of the study, the person is coded as the place where they lived when they were 16. It's designed to show the impact of upbringing I believe.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 03:39 AM   #11950
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I've known a number of people recently to move to a city because they like the services and amenities that city offers, without a job lined up. I think you will find that younger people will tend to move places for a lifestyle without the promise of a job at that point. Our promise is low taxes at the cost of acceptable services and amenities.
Actually the government doesn't provide amenities. The Private Sector does. Mass Transit being the major exception.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 04:51 AM   #11951
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I mean, if you want to be pedantic, a city can provide both services and amenities (and a private business can do the same, in fact). Cities subsidizes - and often times directly own and operate - things in a city besides core city services.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 06:09 AM   #11952
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Actually the government doesn't provide amenities. The Private Sector does. Mass Transit being the major exception.
Really.

I'm not aware of any private-sector parks on the scale of Eagle Creek or Fort Harrison in Central Indiana open to the public.

I'm not aware of any private-sector arteries or highways built in Central Indiana.

I'm not aware of any private-sector greenways or trails on the scale of the Monon or Fall Creek trails in Central Indiana. (Cultural Trail had significant government funding, and they got the right of way free. It is at best a public-private partnership.)

I am not aware of any private-sector international airports in Central Indiana.

I am aware of only a few major private-sector sports venues in Central Indiana: Hinkle Fieldhouse, IMS, ORP, Speedrome; one might argue that Hinkle is tax-exempt and thus subsidized by City taxpayers; IMS just got a state bailout. The rest of them are government-built: LOS, Banker's Life, Victory Field, Carroll Stadium, Velodrome, Kuntz Field, International Sports Park, Fairgrounds Coliseum, plus dozens of HS stadiums.

I am not aware of any private-sector monuments or memorials on the scale of the Soldiers and Sailors Monument or the War Memorial in Central Indiana.

The two biggest youth soccer complexes in the state are in Lawrence and Westfield, both on public parkland.

Please...think at least a little before you hit "submit". This is about two minutes' worth.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 06:25 AM   #11953
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Really.

I'm not aware of any private-sector parks on the scale of Eagle Creek or Fort Harrison in Central Indiana open to the public.

I'm not aware of any private-sector arteries or highways built in Central Indiana.

I'm not aware of any private-sector greenways or trails on the scale of the Monon or Fall Creek trails in Central Indiana. (Cultural Trail had significant government funding, and they got the right of way free. It is at best a public-private partnership.)

I am not aware of any private-sector international airports in Central Indiana.

I am aware of only a few major private-sector sports venues in Central Indiana: Hinkle Fieldhouse, IMS, ORP, Speedrome; one might argue that Hinkle is tax-exempt and thus subsidized by City taxpayers; IMS just got a state bailout. The rest of them are government-built: LOS, Banker's Life, Victory Field, Carroll Stadium, Velodrome, Kuntz Field, International Sports Park, Fairgrounds Coliseum, plus dozens of HS stadiums.

I am not aware of any private-sector monuments or memorials on the scale of the Soldiers and Sailors Monument or the War Memorial in Central Indiana.

The two biggest youth soccer complexes in the state are in Lawrence and Westfield, both on public parkland.

Please...think at least a little before you hit "submit". This is about two minutes' worth.
Do I really need to include common sense stuff like that? Can't you assume those are included? Damn some people can't figure that out?
Public safety, parks, and zoning/roads are the 3 major things a city government does. Of course there are some small things too but let's focus on the majority 90% here and not piss all this time on the 5%.
Regardless I don't believe the government owns St Elmo's or the colts grille and so on. 75%+ of a cities amenities are run by the private sector so lets focus on that. Majority wins simple as that. I shouldn't have to explain any further.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 06:30 AM   #11954
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The study codes the region of a person at their 16th birthday. So no matter where they are from, for the purposes of the study, the person is coded as the place where they lived when they were 16. It's designed to show the impact of upbringing I believe.
Ok, so this makes more sense...it would be counting people like my mother and her siblings who left the farm in northern Appalachia after HS, and my friends, college classmates and acquaintances who went to HS in Appalachia and have done well since migrating to cities such as Cleveland, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, and Indianapolis.

Northern Appalachia tends have far more people of German and continental European origin than Southern Appalachia...which is more English and Scots-Irish in origin, as is most of the rest of the (Caucasian) south.

This looks like some kind of measure of cultural/ethnic background and it may be fairly supportive of Thomas Sowell's thesis.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 06:34 AM   #11955
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XX

Last edited by idyllic indy; July 23rd, 2013 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Redundancy
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 06:44 AM   #11956
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Originally Posted by DowntownIndianapolis View Post
Do I really need to include common sense stuff like that? Can't you assume those are included? Damn some people can't figure that out?
Public safety, parks, and zoning/roads are the 3 major things a city government does. Of course there are some small things too but let's focus on the majority 90% here and not piss all this time on the 5%.
Regardless I don't believe the government owns St Elmo's or the colts grille and so on. 75%+ of a cities amenities are run by the private sector so lets focus on that. Majority wins simple as that. I shouldn't have to explain any further.
Yes, it might actually help your arguments if you would explain what you mean rather than simply parroting political soundbites.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 06:44 AM   #11957
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Originally Posted by DowntownIndianapolis View Post
Do I really need to include common sense stuff like that? Can't you assume those are included? Damn some people can't figure that out?
Public safety, parks, and zoning/roads are the 3 major things a city government does. Of course there are some small things too but let's focus on the majority 90% here and not piss all this time on the 5%.
Regardless I don't believe the government owns St Elmo's or the colts grille and so on. 75%+ of a cities amenities are run by the private sector so lets focus on that. Majority wins simple as that. I shouldn't have to explain any further.
"Majority wins" is a whole lot different from what you wrote. You wrote "the government doesn't provide any amenities" and that is just out-and-out false.

Please...own up to your mistakes and you will gain a whole lot more credibility.

You can't ignore, minimize, or pretend away the billions of dollars worth of public investment and subsidy in the things I listed, just in Central Indiana. That's not trivial. It amounts to very significant government investment in amenities.
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 08:43 AM   #11958
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Yes, it might actually help your arguments if you would explain what you mean rather than simply parroting political soundbites.
I Laughed out loud on this one!

Amenity: "any feature that provides comfort, convenience, or pleasure"
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 03:18 PM   #11959
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Good god, what has happened to this board?
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Old July 23rd, 2013, 05:08 PM   #11960
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Hey, wanted to link to this Pinterest site my friend Andy Cutler put together to curate info about Providence. I think it looks pretty good. It's easy to see how you could do this at many levels, though I don't use Pinterest (which I understand has an overwhelmingly female demographic).

http://pinterest.com/andypvd/pvdprovidence-ri/
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