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Old October 3rd, 2013, 08:35 PM   #12941
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OR, better yet: YOU could buy property on the east side which would give your opinion some weight and actually make it matter.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 08:51 PM   #12942
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OR, better yet: YOU could buy property on the east side which would give your opinion some weight and actually make it matter.
Here's a fun situation......I WILL NOT buy property on a one-way street. This is the actual impact NY and Michigan have on an outside perspective. I guarantee there are very few people who salivate at the chance to own a home on a one-way street. My guess is most commenting on here that live in the area, probably don't live on the streets of focus, but I am sure they enjoy treating them as a personal expressway.

Yes, I don't live in the NES, so my opinion is not based on that specific scenario. I also don't live a lot of places downtown, but feel it is important to argue for improved design and quality of life.

We aren't going to solve anything about this discussion on this forum and I don't know what more can be said. There are those that believe in streets dedicated to cars for the sake of a few minutes at the expense of others and there are those that believe in streets for use by the general public that are inclusive. Somes is and somes aint.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 08:52 PM   #12943
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Moochie,

How's the mural going? It seems like it hasn't progressed lately, at least on the east side.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 09:00 PM   #12944
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Another 98 apartment units to be under construction soon:

Consolidated Building revamp set to begin soon

Story from today's IBJ online:
A long-awaited redevelopment of the downtown Consolidated Building at 115 N. Pennsylvania St. should start next month.

TWG Development LLC, formerly known as The Whitsett Group, and Ambrose Property Group plan to invest $16 million to transform the century-old, brick and terra-cotta building into 98 market-rate apartments, with first-floor retail or restaurant space.

The new name for the building is Penn Street Tower and the architect is Browning Day Mullins Dierdorf Architects.

TWG Principal Joe Whitsett said his firm should close on construction financing with BMO Harris in November, with construction beginning later the same month. A construction filing shows that the developers plan to renovate about 126,000 square feet of the 15-story, 213,000-square-foot structure.


http://www.ibj.com/property-lines-20...AMS/post/43851

I love seeing more and more units filling in the space in the central core of downtown. There used to be a gap between the core CBD and the nearby downtown residential areas - but now the core business areas are becoming more mixed with residences, commercial as well as office space.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 09:06 PM   #12945
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Another bit of development information from the article linked above:

"November is shaping up to be a busy month for TWG, as it also plans to start construction on the first phase of its redevelopment of the Indianapolis Star headquarters property."

That's another 500 or so apartment units that'll be under construction in the core of downtown.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 09:48 PM   #12946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitamin R View Post
OR, better yet: YOU could buy property on the east side which would give your opinion some weight and actually make it matter.
All I hear with this statement is "Get offa my lawn!"

I speak up because I give a crap. Thousands of people in our community do not give a crap.

Also, because I don't live on the east side doesn't mean I don't have a voice. What happens in your neck of the woods has ramifications everywhere. Maybe the next project that turns out great makes its way into my neck of the woods and at that point, people will look and say, Wow, it was nice that someone was paying attention to this sort of stuff.

That said, I agree with Indy'd. I am NOT going to move into a home on a busy one way street. Period.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 09:58 PM   #12947
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Yep. You wouldn't want the tradeoff because you're not trying to get to destinations on New York & Michigan and spend any time there outside your automobile. Your motivation is only to get through as quickly as possible. Thus, your goal to maintain speeds as high as possible. For those who live there and want to go to destinations there, traveling four miles in six to eight minutes is not the top priority.
I try not to put words in your mouth. Please try not to put them in mine. 35mph is not and never has been "high speed". 70 is high speed. 20 is low speed. 35 is a lot closer to 20 than to 70.

I may be the only person on this board old enough to actually have worked at a major industrial employer on the Near East Side, on Michigan. I literally came to Indianapolis to work there. But in the words of The Boss, those jobs are goin' boys, and they ain't comin' back...first to Carmel, then to China. So like others, I've changed careers and found my work elsewhere.

Every city has, and needs, high-capacity traffic arterials. The Near East Side's population is around 32-35,000, and this paired artery is near its residential core. Given the traffic flows and how they are higher to the west than to the east, it looks as if many (if not most) of the people with jobs in the neighborhood, and more who live just beyond, rely on it to get to work.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that.

The goal of planning has never been to create hermetically-sealed neighborhoods where all activity is self-contained and no one trades or works outside their own neighborhood boundaries; nor to prevent people from passing through one neighborhood on their way to and from another.

Well, except in the cul-de-sac suburbs and West Clay.

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And for the 978th time, New York & Michigan are not 10th Street. But since you keep railing on it so much, your assessment of the traffic congestion on 10th Street is even a bit overblown. Could it be designed better, yes? Would N.Y. & Michigan need to be designed better as two-way streets, yes? Is your fearmongering that all the streets would function exactly like 10th a good reason to not explore conversion of the streets?
I have reported my experience on many trips down 10th. And I put a watch on several of them. Those comments are quantitative and observation based, as opposed to undocumented comments about "high-speed traffic". (When? Where? How many? How fast?)

I am saying that painting a yellow stripe between the two current traffic lanes on Michigan & New York WILL MAKE THEM JUST LIKE 10th. Frankly, we all know that if they're converted, they will be converted with a new yellow stripe, with the curbs and sidewalks and pavement and storm sewers exactly where they are now because the City can't afford to do otherwise. And we know there would be a hellacious fight to remove curb parking or the bike lanes. Again...I'm living in the real world. Even in Fall Creek Place, with wheelbarrows full of money, none of the one-ways was converted; instead traffic was calmed by street redesign. (College predated FCP).

We've explored. Most of us who have relied on those streets and our cars say conversion is a bad idea. And we actually have some facts to support us, and examples of places (Philadelphia, FCP) where one way pairs coexist with dense housing, educational and commercial options. And we have a really good, bike-, pedestrian-, AND car-friendly proposal from a really thoughtful guy (Hoss) that we should all be able to settle on.

The "destination" argument is a straw man. A great deal of time and energy and investment has gone into creating a slew of destinations from 10th & Massachusetts to Clifford Corners...because the historic development pattern supports it, and because 10th is more at the center of the neighborhood. Two nice parks are nearby (Spades and Brookside). Not because it's a two-way street. Washington is up next. Likewise, not because it's a two-way street, but because its historic development pattern supports it.

Every corner can't be a "destination".
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:11 PM   #12948
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I try not to put words in your mouth. Please try not to put them in mine. 35mph is not and never has been "high speed". 70 is high speed. 20 is low speed. 35 is a lot closer to 20 than to 70.
Just a side note, many studies show the rate of pedestrian death when a vehicle is traveling 40 mph is roughly double that of someone traveling 20 mph. That is something I believe makes a difference in a community. It may also add to perceived safety of an area........or, you know, actual safety.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:12 PM   #12949
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Once again, all I am hearing in here in regards to the east side is based on PERSONAL tastes and wants. Many of those arguments are made upon broad based assumptions and generalizations as well. Many of which are inaccurate or untrue such as the one that everyone on the east side is speeding. Despite the fact that several reasonable arguments have been made against changing traffic flows on Michigan and New York the response is to bring up a new argument or complaint. Yet again, these new arguments are based on personal tastes rather than the tastes or desires of those who actually live in the area. Now it seems that there is an attempt to cut east siders out of the debate by trying to differentiate between those who use those streets to those who actually live on them, or face them. Never mind the fact that many of those properties are rentals and many face potential demolition. Also, many of those properties do not actually "face" those streets but "side" them, so to speak.

So far, of those I know or suspect live on the east side we seem to have a breakdown that goes as follows:

3-1 against, and 1 un-decided.

Of course, I have no doubt that makes little difference to those who seek a generic, cookie-cutter, urban landscape.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:15 PM   #12950
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Even in Fall Creek Place, with wheelbarrows full of money, none of the one-ways was converted; instead traffic was calmed by street redesign. (College predated FCP).

We've explored. Most of us who have relied on those streets and our cars say conversion is a bad idea. And we actually have some facts to support us, and examples of places (Philadelphia, FCP) where one way pairs coexist with dense housing, educational and commercial options. And we have a really good, bike-, pedestrian-, AND car-friendly proposal from a really thoughtful guy (Hoss) that we should all be able to settle on.
If you are speaking about Delaware Street through FCP, it is one of the scariest stretches of road I have ever witnessed. In fact, IPL just replaced yet another light pole that was struck by a driver. It is not a pleasant place to be, speaking from a human standpoint. Central is very similar, though I continue to state that inbound traffic is a bit less hectic than outbound.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:35 PM   #12951
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Can we Near-Eastsiders weight the value of our "vote" based on the number of Near Eastside properties owned? I'm sure we could come up with a complicated metric involving # of properties owned over value of said properties, subtracting mortgage owed.. Add on an "opinionated *******" quotient to tilt the score, and we could assign ourselves numbers.

Kind of like stockholders, but instead of shares, we'd have a "value of opinion score" to use.

Just sayin... If we did that, I'd have a much higher number to "vote" with, and all I'd have to do would be to move my undecided "vote" from the undecided column and I'd end this argument once and for all.

I want the power baby... <cough>
sure, unfortunately that decision has to go through the feds and they are shut down.........
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:45 PM   #12952
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The fact of the matter is that there are far more densely populated cities in this country that have one-way streets. This summer I was in Seattle and Minneapolis, plenty of one-way streets in both. Last summer I was in Boston and NYC, lots of one-way streets in those cities as well. You can also add to the list: DC, San Francisco, Milwaukie, Dallas, Portland and Chicago. This clamoring for two-way streets is nothing more than an urban purist's wet-dream and reflects a single-mindedness that ignores potential economic and environmental impacts of higher traffic congestion.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:50 PM   #12953
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Here's a fun situation......I WILL NOT buy property on a one-way street. This is the actual impact NY and Michigan have on an outside perspective. I guarantee there are very few people who salivate at the chance to own a home on a one-way street.
Probably less than 2% of the residential properties on the Near East Side actually front NY or Michigan. A truer picture of the "average" street on the NES might be, oh, Gray, Dearborn, Colorado or LaSalle.

BTW, all are partially or completely one-way on the NES. Colorado (still brick) is an especially low-speed one-way.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 10:55 PM   #12954
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Just a side note, many studies show the rate of pedestrian death when a vehicle is traveling 40 mph is roughly double that of someone traveling 20 mph. That is something I believe makes a difference in a community. It may also add to perceived safety of an area........or, you know, actual safety.
Another straw man argument. It's easier and safer to cross a one-way because, you know, you only have to look one way before crossing.

How many pedestrian deaths have there been on Michigan or NY per year in the last 30 years?

Pedestrians are getting killed in Indianapolis on TWO-WAY arterials in the outer townships: Michigan Rd., Allisonville, W. 38th, E. 82nd. Shall we blame two-way streets?
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 11:10 PM   #12955
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Another straw man argument. It's easier and safer to cross a one-way because, you know, you only have to look one way before crossing.

How many pedestrian deaths have there been on Michigan or NY per year in the last 30 years?

Pedestrians are getting killed in Indianapolis on TWO-WAY arterials in the outer townships: Michigan Rd., Allisonville, W. 38th, E. 82nd. Shall we blame two-way streets?
I've seen enough people heading the wrong way on a one-way out of confusion, spite or just plain ignoring the signs that I look both ways before crossing.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 11:21 PM   #12956
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Originally Posted by cailes View Post
All I hear with this statement is "Get offa my lawn!"

I speak up because I give a crap. Thousands of people in our community do not give a crap.

Also, because I don't live on the east side doesn't mean I don't have a voice. What happens in your neck of the woods has ramifications everywhere. Maybe the next project that turns out great makes its way into my neck of the woods and at that point, people will look and say, Wow, it was nice that someone was paying attention to this sort of stuff.

That said, I agree with Indy'd. I am NOT going to move into a home on a busy one way street. Period.
I appreciate the fact that you care. However, in this case, I'll take a pass on that. The fact of the matter is that your anti-car attitude is very well known. Therefore, you would bulldoze over and denigrate those that also care about OUR city but don't agree with you. You ignore the fact that Michigan and New York are major arterial and commuter feeders not just to the D/T, but to the very nexus of the Indianapolis area's interstate network. Furthermore, much of the vision you have for the city carries a high price tag not just in the form of dollars but in lost economic potential. In many ways you would gamble our city's economic viability and future for an idealized urban vision. That is a gamble I am just not willing to make.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 11:26 PM   #12957
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It occurs to me that I left out a very important part of the metric: history. Those who have roots going back decades or generations on the Near-Eastside clearly need to have a healthy bump in their "value of opinion score". Clearly, our opinions have more weight than someone who recently immigrated..

Also family size is not a factor that can be ignored. A single person living alone clearly has less "value of opinion" than a person who has kids in school at St. Phillip Neri for example.

Wow, this could get complicated.
hahaha, all of these weighted opinions could get very heavy.
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Old October 3rd, 2013, 11:31 PM   #12958
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I do not ignore them. And I am still a majority car user even if my household is car lite. I drive 25 miles door to door for work every day, so before you question my morals, you should know that.

I know how important NY & Michigan are, but I also see first hand the affect of this car only attitude. I will do whatever I can do, anywhere, to positively improve the environment for pedestrians and cyclists who also happen to be the ones nearest and dearest to my heart.

This isn't some urbanists wet dream crusade, this is my family's well being. Combined, with a 3 year old, we cycle over 100 miles a week to perform essential functions of our daily life. My wife complains daily about how fast cars go by when she rides, and yes, she uses the Illinois Street bike lane.
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Old October 4th, 2013, 12:30 AM   #12959
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I do not ignore them. And I am still a majority car user even if my household is car lite. I drive 25 miles door to door for work every day, so before you question my morals, you should know that.

I know how important NY & Michigan are, but I also see first hand the affect of this car only attitude. I will do whatever I can do, anywhere, to positively improve the environment for pedestrians and cyclists who also happen to be the ones nearest and dearest to my heart.

This isn't some urbanists wet dream crusade, this is my family's well being. Combined, with a 3 year old, we cycle over 100 miles a week to perform essential functions of our daily life. My wife complains daily about how fast cars go by when she rides, and yes, she uses the Illinois Street bike lane.


That was truly the worst gambit you could take with me because you just turned my heart into a cold, dead stone. How dare you use such a puling argument with me? You would parade out an emotional reason since I suspect the rational ones are a bit scarce. However, what is so insulting and offensive is that your argument puts the onus of personal and moral responsibility on me. Therefore, I reject that argument as it is manipulative.

First of all, the main complaint has been speeding which is a law enforcement issue, period. In case no has been paying attention the city of Indianapolis has less than half of the police officers of its peers in terms of both actual numbers and per capita basis. This problem is the collective responsibility and fault of every property owner and tax-payer in the city. Get more officers on the streets writing tickets and I guarantee that traffic will "cool down" real quick. Until the people of this city are willing to pay for the services that they need for a safe and vibrant community what makes you think they will be willing to shell out the money to make changes to street configurations and related infrastructure? Not only is your position selfish and self-centered, it isn't even based in reality!

Furthermore, if you and your wife take that small child biking with the personal fears you hold then the shame and personal responsibility is on you, and you alone!
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Old October 4th, 2013, 01:10 AM   #12960
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It occurs to me that I left out a very important part of the metric: history. Those who have roots going back decades or generations on the Near-Eastside clearly need to have a healthy bump in their "value of opinion score". Clearly, our opinions have more weight than someone who recently immigrated..

Also family size is not a factor that can be ignored. A single person living alone clearly has less "value of opinion" than a person who has kids in school at St. Phillip Neri for example.

Wow, this could get complicated.
People who worked in one of the dead industrial sites on the NES should also get a bump, as well as current or former Tech HS families.

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