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Old August 17th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #1
Andrew_za
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The Future of our World Cup Stadia

Seems like a cliché, but it remains an issue yet to be resolved. We all knew this day would come, but keeping in World Cup Spirit, many forgot about life post July 11th 2010.

We built the Multi Billion Rand Venues, Tested them, Used them for the World Cup and Now What?

What will be our Saving Grace?

World Cup Stadia
• Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town
• Moses Mabhida Stadium, Durban
• Nelson Mandela Stadium, Port Elizabeth
• Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
• Ellis Park Stadium, Johannesburg
• Soccer City, Johannesburg
• Loftus Versfeld Stadium, Pretoria
• Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
• Royal Bafokeng Stadium, Rustenburg
• Peter Mokaba Stadium, Polokwane

The World Is Still Watching
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Last edited by Andrew_za; August 17th, 2010 at 10:59 PM.
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Old August 17th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #2
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I foresaw major problems coming - Hoskins


A failure by the Durban and Cape Town city councils to communicate with rugby bosses over the use of stadia for future matches has caused "major problems", SA Rugby Union president Oregan Hoskins told MPs on Tuesday.

"We now have a situation where in particular Cape Town and Durban are posing a major challenge," Hoskins told the Parliamentary portfolio committee on sport.

"In 2007, before the new stadiums were built, I wrote to the minister of sport and said I foresaw major problems coming and I asked for the intervention of the ministry.

"Unfortunately, we were all taken up by the Soccer World Cup and in the hype we forgot we should have been talking to each other."


The operators of South Africa's new stadia have been desperate to bring rugby unions on board to fill seats and bring in income.

A presentation from the City of Cape Town to the committee on Tuesday estimated that it would cost R46.5 million to maintain the city's new stadium each year. Durban too will have to fork out millions in maintenance costs.

Both cities are hoping to move their provincial rugby teams to the stadia and to host international test matches.

"What we are discussing today should have been discussed before we built the stadiums," Hoskins said.

"It is tragic for us as a nation that we have to act in reverse."

Hoskins said a breakdown in the relationship between Durban city manager Mike Sutcliffe and Sharks chief executive Brian Van Zyl was a large driver behind the problems in Durban.

"We heard Sutcliffe say they are getting on in a friendly way. I am not so sure about that," Hoskins said.

"During the World Cup I received a call from Mike. He said he has a big problem with parking because Brian van Zyl was overcharging for parking.

"I said Mike, you have not involved South African Rugby in your deliberations. I said that is the core of your problem.

"I made it very clear to Mike that this discussion cannot be limited to a forum between two people."

Hoskins said there were no discussions between the city and rugby authorities before the stadium was built.

The Sharks, he said, were going to have "a massive problem" moving over to the R3 billion Moses Mabhida stadium because of the configuration of its suites.

"There was no discussion, when that stadium was built, with rugby and it could have solved a lot of problems.

"If the suites were configured in a different way that would have solved so many problems.

"In the rugby stadium they have about 400 suites. In the soccer stadium they have about a quarter of that."

He said the issues could not be left to two parties - The Sharks and The City of Durban - to solve.

"We can't allow this issue to be left to those two parties.

"They owe it to us that this matter must be resolved by greater participation.

"As we sit here today, remember my words, this is going to hit a dead end."

Hoskins said the situation in Cape Town was "out of hand".

"There has been a total breakdown around this issue of the new stadium. It is not necessary it should happen that way."

He said Western Province Rugby and Sail StadeFrance, the operators of Cape Town Stadium, were "talking past each other" and "talking in the media" about whether rugby would in the future move from Newlands to the new stadium.

"It goes on and on," he said. "It just gets out of hand."

"Unless we contain it and channel our common energies in one direction, we are going to be the laughing stock of everyone," he said.


Western Province Rugby president Tobie Titus said that when it was announced that a new stadium would be built, the union and other partners made a bid to operate the new stadium after the World Cup.

"Unfortunately, at that time we were not happy with the conditions set by the city council," he said.

Titus said the union took advice from an independent financial adviser about what would be best financial model for it.

"We were advised it is best to stay at Newlands," he said.

Western Province Rugby had not met with the city about using the stadium for rugby since the initial meeting.

"If we are not going to solve this problem, it is going to divide this community."

Hoskins said SA Rugby was looking at a new model to host test matches around the country

"We want to use the new stadiums. We want to take the game to the people, but these two issues are going to stand in our way in a big way," he said.

"The parties must take huge blame for the situation we are in." - Sapa
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Old August 18th, 2010, 12:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_za View Post
Seems like a cliché, but it remains an issue yet to be resolved. We all knew this day would come, but keeping in World Cup Spirit, many forgot about life post July 11th 2010.

We built the Multi Billion Rand Venues, Tested them, Used them for the World Cup and Now What?

What will be our Saving Grace?

World Cup Stadia
• Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town
• Moses Mabhida Stadium, Durban
• Nelson Mandela Stadium, Port Elizabeth
• Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
• Ellis Park Stadium, Johannesburg
• Soccer City, Johannesburg
• Loftus Versfeld Stadium, Pretoria
• Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
• Royal Bafokeng Stadium, Rustenburg
• Peter Mokaba Stadium, Polokwane

The World Is Still Watching
Only Mbombela & Peter Mokaba are without tenants.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #4
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Only Mbombela & Peter Mokaba are without tenants.
Moses and CT and Soccer city dont have tennts per say
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Old August 18th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #5
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Moses and CT and Soccer city dont have tennts per say
They do.

Moses and CT will be home to Amazulu & Ajax respectively during this PSL season. FNB is the home of Bafana Bafana and SAFA H/Q was formerly there, but now just a stone throw away.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 03:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by folem View Post
...Moses and CT will be home to Amazulu & Ajax respectively during this PSL season. FNB is the home of Bafana Bafana and SAFA H/Q was formerly there, but now just a stone throw away.
Amazulu will play some (not all) of their games at MMS.

Ajax will play their home games at the Cape Town Stadium, however a formal announcement is yet to be made by Stadium operator SAIL/Stadefrance's Morne du Plessis

Otherwise for the PSL:

Quote:
The Moses Mabhida stadium in Durban will be used for some of local club AmaZulu's matches during the league, and Ajax Cape Town are scheduled to play all their matches at the Cape Town stadium in Green Point. Platinum Stars will also use the Royal Bafokeng stadium in Rustenburg for their home games.

But FNB Stadium and stadiums in Polokwane, Nelspruit and Port Elizabeth have not been assigned league matches.
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Old August 18th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #7
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Renewed fears for future of World Cup stadiums
By GERALD IMRAY, AP Sports Writer
1 hour, 23 minutes ago


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JOHANNESBURG (AP)—Too small for cricket and passed over by rugby, the stadiums that cost South Africa more than $1 billion for this year’s World Cup already appear to be turning into white elephants.

Both rugby and cricket are more commercially successful than football in South Africa, and both sports need to move into the new stadiums—built and renovated for Africa’s first World Cup—to keep them alive financially.

On Tuesday, South African Rugby Union president Oregan Hoskins told members of parliament in Cape Town that there had been no discussions between Durban city officials and rugby representatives before the $400 million, 70,000-capacity Moses Mabhida Stadium was built, and now it did not have enough suites to accommodate the local Sharks rugby team’s suite holders.

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Hoskins said that the Sharks, who compete in the annual Super Rugby competition and the domestic Currie Cup and could offer near year-round use, would have a “massive problem” to move to the new stadium.

“What we are discussing today should have been discussed before we built the stadiums,” Hoskins said. “It is tragic for us as a nation that we have to act in reverse.”

The situation in Cape Town is just as bad, according to Hoskins, because of the deteriorating relationship between the local Western Province rugby union and the Green Point Stadium operators. The South African Press Association quoted Western Province Rugby president Tobie Titus as saying that on the advice of an independent financial adviser, Western Province Rugby was staying at its current stadium, Newlands.

So the iconic Green Point Stadium, set in the shadow of the famous Table Mountain, could now be rarely used and is set to cost more than $6 million a year just to maintain.

Cricket South Africa chief executive Gerald Majola added that the pitches at the stadiums were too small to host cricket games, and blamed this on the failure of cities to consult cricket authorities before construction.

Hoskins said the hype generated by the recent World Cup also hid many of the issues, leaving the stadiums now struggling to bring in income.

“In 2007, before the new stadiums were built, I wrote to the minister of sport and said I foresaw major problems coming and I asked for the intervention of the ministry,” Hoskins told the committee. “Unfortunately, we were all taken up by the soccer World Cup and in the hype we forgot we should have been talking to each other.”

In July, South African Football Association chief executive Leslie Sedibe conceded to the same parliamentary committee that football faced a major challenge to keep the stadiums in use and profitable—largely due to traditionally low ticket prices charged at local matches and the high cost of running the world class arenas.

Sedibe’s observation came just 10 days after the World Cup ended, and after South Africa spent an estimated $1.3 billion building and upgrading the 10 stadiums used for the tournament.

It was hoped rugby and cricket would help out.

But, even as the world champion South African rugby team prepares to play its first international at the 94,000-seat Soccer City in Johannesburg, the venue for the World Cup final, the assessments of Hoskins and Majola paint a bleak picture for the stadiums’ long-term future.

Majola said Cricket South Africa had been forced to seek special permission from the International Cricket Council to host a Twenty20 game between South Africa and India at the Moses Mabhida Stadium early next year, but it was a one-off and the playing surface was still too small for major games.

He also pointed to a lost opportunity for cricket to move to World Cup stadiums in the northern cities of Rustenburg, Polokwane and Nelspruit, which are likely to struggle because of their remote locations and lack of major sporting teams nearby.

“Historically, our game had not been played in some of the areas where some of stadiums were built,” Majola said. “We saw an opportunity, but unfortunately we were not part of the designs of the stadiums.

“Unfortunately, we are compelled by the size of fields. When these fields were built, we were not part of that.”

Majola said if the stadiums had been suitable, CSA could have made space for an annual tournament like the popular Indian Premier League.

In his brutally honest assessment, Hoskins said all the problems threatened to make South Africa “a laughing stock.”

“We want to use the new stadiums,” Hoskins said. “We want to take the game to the people, but these issues are going to stand in our way in a big way.”
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Old August 18th, 2010, 04:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Amazulu will play some (not all) of their games at MMS.
All but 2 of Amazulu home games will be played @ MMS.

http://www.psl.co.za/fixtures.asp?id=794
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Old August 18th, 2010, 05:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folem View Post
All but 2 of Amazulu home games will be played @ MMS.

http://www.psl.co.za/fixtures.asp?id=794
Yip all 2000 supporters will be there
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Old August 18th, 2010, 05:28 PM   #10
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They do.

Moses and CT will be home to Amazulu & Ajax respectively during this PSL season. FNB is the home of Bafana Bafana and SAFA H/Q was formerly there, but now just a stone throw away.
come on be realistic, theose arent anchor tennts but a bit of marketing speil, so how many games per year will banana banana play at National stadium?

How many people will mamazulu bring to a 56 000 seater stadium.

Time to get real and without rugby these are doomed stadiums, sort of like Korea post w/C when they bulldozed half a dozern stadiums that only hosted 6 games
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Old August 18th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #11
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come on be realistic, theose arent anchor tennts but a bit of marketing speil, so how many games per year will banana banana play at National stadium?

How many people will mamazulu bring to a 56 000 seater stadium.

Time to get real and without rugby these are doomed stadiums, sort of like Korea post w/C when they bulldozed half a dozern stadiums that only hosted 6 games
They are the anchor tenants for now.

Amazulu averages just under 6,000 per season but will probably get more this season because of the new Stadium.

Only 3 Rugby teams have average attendance that is higher than the football teams. The rest are just like the PSL teams e.g Lions, Cheetahs, Griquas, Leopards, Pumas, Cavaliers, Bulldogs, Griffons, Eagles, Valke, E.P Kings ...

FNB stadium can host up to 8 Bafana Bafana qualifying/friendly games annually as well as Telkom Charity Cup, Nedbank Cup final games & other Cup finals.

The PSL average season attendance is higher than the Currie Cup regular season average attendance.

When the PSL teams become sucessfull in CAF Champions League & Confederation Cup, then they could get some more bums on seats for continental games and get near the S14 figures.

Last edited by folem; August 18th, 2010 at 07:26 PM.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 05:52 AM   #12
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They are the anchor tenants for now.

Amazulu averages just under 6,000 per season but will probably get more this season because of the new Stadium.

Only 3 Rugby teams have average attendance that is higher than the football teams. The rest are just like the PSL teams e.g Lions, Cheetahs, Griquas, Leopards, Pumas, Cavaliers, Bulldogs, Griffons, Eagles, Valke, E.P Kings ...

FNB stadium can host up to 8 Bafana Bafana qualifying/friendly games annually as well as Telkom Charity Cup, Nedbank Cup final games & other Cup finals.

The PSL average season attendance is higher than the Currie Cup regular season average attendance.

When the PSL teams become sucessfull in CAF Champions League & Confederation Cup, then they could get some more bums on seats for continental games and get near the S14 figures.
again disagree,

sharks, bulls, cheetahs, province and even Lions have higher matcch attendances than that but more impoortantsly Many more games p/a
Id also throw in Griquas to that based onthis years attendance.

No way PSL teams get higher attendance p/a than rugby

so soccor city gets what 10 games a year , never gonna pay for it with only that

as for CAf cup sucess, we willm have to wait another 4 years for that, whats to say they will be sucessfull when they havent to date?

Over all a spectacular fuck up by the governmnet, the ANC run cities and Soccer SA. All so cleaver and so arrogant at the world cup that no one despite the numerous warnings involved longer term staekholders who frankly dont have to compromise as they have existing , legally secured venues.

The onus was on the arrogant technicrats to make the stadiums easily convertable for future tennat.

And if the PSL teams are so great why is everyone falling overthem selves to try to get Sharks and province to move.

Putting these PSL teams in these 2 stadiums is simply moving the deck chairs on the titanic.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 08:16 AM   #13
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Instead of relying on rugby, SA football should be using the World Cup hype to glamorize the local football league! There is no reason why this shouldn't work. Make the tickets really cheap to start with to get the right atmosphere and give the local teams the visibility they need - and do it now!
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Old August 19th, 2010, 09:34 AM   #14
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i agree. there is much scope for growth in football from just better management innovation and marketing. but running parallel stadiums is unneccessary. it would be endemic of the us vs them mentalitly that got us in this place and would be counter to the nation building experience of the world cup.

all stakeholders could have done more to arrive at a better outcomes with regards to stadium usage by the rugby unions. the unions themselves, the metros(anc and da) and government. it seems that there was no communication due to the the us/them relationship between rugby/football and in fact rugby/government. the rugby unions too have much to gain from new facilities with improved user experience.

government cant afford the embarassment of white elephants and the fact that hoskins was before the sports portfolio in parliament is encouraging. the obstacles noted are not impossible to overcome with engineering and financing/ownership interventions. if there is a high level facilitaion and negotiation set in motion this can be resolved and the rugby unions are powerful to lobby for an outcomes in their favour.

this whole white elephant talk seems like a continuation of the pre world cup pessimism. "what are they going to do with the stadiums now..." i cant help hoping that we'll arrive at a solution albeit that this is arrived at after the fact.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 09:43 AM   #15
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Instead of relying on rugby, SA football should be using the World Cup hype to glamorize the local football league! There is no reason why this shouldn't work. Make the tickets really cheap to start with to get the right atmosphere and give the local teams the visibility they need - and do it now!
Local soccer is a joke as 80% of the county support 2 teams. There is no local team which local population support ie Zulus and people of Durban filling a ground to watch Amazulu play who ever.

Its badly run and is not a pro orginisation. If it was and with our massive pool of players we would be african and CAF champs every year.

Yes ticket prices play a part and also tranport infrastructure too. How does one get from say Kwa Mashu to MM to watch a game without having to change 3 taxis and spend a fortune only to pay R20 for a coke at a ground. Can watch it on TV at the local tavern for much less and walk home.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 09:44 AM   #16
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Juts want to clirfy somethiong. who was running CT city when stadiums were designed and built?
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Old August 19th, 2010, 10:02 AM   #17
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as an aside. amazulu's support is growing steeply. they got the second highest votes in the telkom charity cup, more than chiefs and pirates. their supporters are vibrant and vocal. the durban derby is better attended each year 25k last year i think which is a vast improvement from the non event it was in the past. they are actually an example of growing support from good management and marketing. amazulu is hardly the backyard operation football team found elswhere in the psl
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Old August 19th, 2010, 10:27 AM   #18
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again disagree,

sharks, bulls, cheetahs, province and even Lions have higher matcch attendances than that but more impoortantsly Many more games p/a
Id also throw in Griquas to that based onthis years attendance.

No way PSL teams get higher attendance p/a than rugby

so soccor city gets what 10 games a year , never gonna pay for it with only that

as for CAf cup sucess, we willm have to wait another 4 years for that, whats to say they will be sucessfull when they havent to date?

Over all a spectacular fuck up by the governmnet, the ANC run cities and Soccer SA. All so cleaver and so arrogant at the world cup that no one despite the numerous warnings involved longer term staekholders who frankly dont have to compromise as they have existing , legally secured venues.

The onus was on the arrogant technicrats to make the stadiums easily convertable for future tennat.

And if the PSL teams are so great why is everyone falling overthem selves to try to get Sharks and province to move.

Putting these PSL teams in these 2 stadiums is simply moving the deck chairs on the titanic.
@ SA BOY.

Why don't you post the rugby attendance figures of "sharks, bulls, cheetahs, province and even Lions" for comparison? and the number of games p/a? and yes you can "throw in Griquas" ?

Soccer City gets 10 soccer games a year but it can also hold concerts and other gatherings e.g Religious/Political e.t.c to make sure it is well used.

You don't have to wait for CAF cup success to hype the CAF competitions though and get in more people interested in the games. How many times have SA clubs won Super Rugby save for Bull's recent successes but the excitement is still there.

Sharks and Province don't really have to move, it is just the incompetence of SAFA/PSL from the get go, even if they move, what about the previous stadiums?, they still have to be used or will you prefer them to be demolished. The reality is that Soccer actually needs new facilities and should not be using Rugby facilities especially after the Soccer World Cup.

Only 2 WC 2010 stadiums need to have tenants and SA should be able to sort that out.

PSL had about 1,833,360 attendance with an average of 7,639 last season and soccer is still No 1 sport in SA.

I am waiting for your figures for Vodacom Cup, Currie Cup and S14 figures for SA sides ......

Last edited by folem; August 19th, 2010 at 11:14 AM.
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Old August 19th, 2010, 12:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew_za View Post
Amazulu will play some (not all) of their games at MMS.

Ajax will play their home games at the Cape Town Stadium, however a formal announcement is yet to be made by Stadium operator SAIL/Stadefrance's Morne du Plessis

Otherwise for the PSL:
7 PSL fixtures

Quote:
Cape Town Stadium PSL fixtures for 2010


August 27: Ajax Cape Town vs Bloemfontein Celtics; Vasco da Gama vs. Orlando Pirates
September 17: Ajax Cape Town vs Platinum Stars
October 15: Ajax Cape Town vs Engen Santos
November 10: Ajax Cape Town vs Vasco da Gama
November 26: Ajax Cape Town vs BIDVest Wits
December 17: Ajax Cape Town vs Mamelodi Sundowns
2 concerts

1 Bafana Match

1 New Years Event
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Old August 19th, 2010, 12:36 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by folem View Post
@ SA BOY.

Why don't you post the rugby attendance figures of "sharks, bulls, cheetahs, province and even Lions" for comparison? and the number of games p/a? and yes you can "throw in Griquas" ?

Soccer City gets 10 soccer games a year but it can also hold concerts and other gatherings e.g Religious/Political e.t.c to make sure it is well used.

You don't have to wait for CAF cup success to hype the CAF competitions though and get in more people interested in the games. How many times have SA clubs won Super Rugby save for Bull's recent successes but the excitement is still there.

Sharks and Province don't really have to move, it is just the incompetence of SAFA/PSL from the get go, even if they move, what about the previous stadiums?, they still have to be used or will you prefer them to be demolished. The reality is that Soccer actually needs new facilities and should not be using Rugby facilities especially after the Soccer World Cup.

Only 2 WC 2010 stadiums need to have tenants and SA should be able to sort that out.

PSL had about 1,833,360 attendance with an average of 7,639 last season and soccer is still No 1 sport in SA.

I am waiting for your figures for Vodacom Cup, Currie Cup and S14 figures for SA sides ......
If WP Rugby move, they sell the land, and become the wealthiest rugby union and move into a new stadium designed for rugby, with much better access, a larger potential market, more roof cover, better media facilities, surrounded by 5-7 rugby training fields, modern facilities for players, in an iconic location.
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