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Old May 11th, 2017, 10:38 PM   #18721
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From the Labour manifesto...

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A Labour government will complete the HS2 high speed rail line from London through Birmingham to Leeds and Manchester, and then into Scotland, consulting with communities affected about the optimal route
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Old May 11th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #18722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Darwin View Post
From the Labour manifesto...
Is there anything in there about HS3?
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Old May 11th, 2017, 11:07 PM   #18723
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Originally Posted by Burlington Bolshevik View Post
Is there anything in there about HS3?
It's worth remembering this manifesto is never in a million years going to be implemented.

They say this...

Quote:

A Labour government will link HS2 with other new investments, such as Crossrail of the North.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 11:21 PM   #18724
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.
Euston problems - letter.

(There's an election on.)


http://camdennewjournal.com/article/...on-is-no-waste

.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 11:29 PM   #18725
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When will the first phase of HS2 move into the full construction phase? Aware that enabling works are ongoing in London and elsewhere but when will we start to see track start to be layed and tunnels start to take shape?
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Old May 12th, 2017, 12:33 PM   #18726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I disagree. I think the split is 91/9.
* Cue hundreds of pages of posts arguing about percentages.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 12:37 PM   #18727
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* Cue hundreds of pages of posts arguing about percentages.
It might be dozens, or even thousands

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Old May 12th, 2017, 05:20 PM   #18728
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If the long gestation of HS2 has taught me anything, it is that every idiot, his mother and his dog believe they know enough about complex projects to make assertive predictions - based on the nonsense published in the tabloid press. So in this case the talking heads have always predicted doom and gloom and are happy to pluck huge cost figures from thin air. I remember it was the case with Crossrail too, but the noise from the antis went away once it started getting built. Sadly HS2 isn't yet at this point, probably because it is being built in three stages.


Anyway... the person best placed to know the truth has talked about budgets....


http://www.railtechnologymagazine.co...ng-over-budget


Selected bits:


"HS2’s technical director has stated that despite recent trouble with procurement and reports of mounting costs, the opening date of the project and its budget have not changed from original estimates".


“The headline opening time has not changed, and is not affected by the unexpected general election,” McNaughton said during his keynote speech. “2033 is the finish date for the whole lot, and the overall cost has not changed either.”


“In my mind you should never trust journalists,” he said. “Current costs are still at £55bn. It can change little by little, but that’s just taking inflation into account".
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Old May 12th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #18729
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Years ago there were talks of constructing and running water pipelines alongside the HS2 tracks to essentially divert water away from where it is (the North) to where it's needed (the South East). Essentially a water "national grid". Is this still being considered?
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Old May 12th, 2017, 05:55 PM   #18730
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Originally Posted by eXSBass View Post
Years ago there were talks of constructing and running water pipelines alongside the HS2 tracks to essentially divert water away from where it is (the North) to where it's needed (the South East). Essentially a water "national grid". Is this still being considered?

How would that work alongside railway tracks? Water needs a gentle average downgrade to flow (although I assume pressure can push it along lengthy level sections). Pumps could pull water uphill, but the power required for that feat would be incredible - in which case we might as well just build desalination plants along the Thames estuary and South Coast.


The HS2 tracks are going to be nothing like level. They will undulate by tens of metres, probably with gradients as severe as 1 in 40.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:13 PM   #18731
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I may have previously given the impression that Joe Rukin hasn't got a clue and needs to get a real job, but he does have his uses. His latest rant on the StopHS2 website is full of more 'why oh why' type laments, but he has faithfully copied the position of the Labour Party manifesto and Theresa May's comments about the importance of building national infrastructure. So thanks for these Joe!

From the stolen or leaked Labour manifesto.

“A Labour government will complete the HS2 high speed rail line from London through Birmingham to Leeds and Manchester, and then into Scotland, consulting with communities affected about the optimal route.”
“A Labour government will invest to regenerate the local and regional economies across the whole country, so that every area gets its fair share of transport investment. A Labour government will link HS2 with other new investments, such as Crossrail of the North.”

The PM said:

“Government has to balance out what it’s doing. We are putting record levels of money into the NHS and record levels of funding in to schools, but we can only do that if we have a strong economy with businesses growing, creating the wealth that allows us to fund the NHS and schools.”
“In order to have that strong economy, we need to have the right infrastructure in place. Rail infrastructure is an important part of that and I think HS2 is important part in that. And of course HS2 is largely about increasing capacity on our rail system, so I think it is important, we are committed to it and it’s about an infrastructure that helps us to develop the economy that then enables us to provide a first class NHS and schooling.”
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:15 PM   #18732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
How would that work alongside railway tracks? Water needs a gentle average downgrade to flow (although I assume pressure can push it along lengthy level sections). Pumps could pull water uphill, but the power required for that feat would be incredible - in which case we might as well just build desalination plants along the Thames estuary and South Coast.


The HS2 tracks are going to be nothing like level. They will undulate by tens of metres, probably with gradients as severe as 1 in 40.
Vulcan, I can assure you, engineers do have the capability to pump water over long distances. Naturally cost is the prohibiting factor as you mentioned.

Desalination plants are expensive. It's not just the capital cost of constructing one; but also the cost of running it. Fouling is a massive issue at desalination plants. Replacing fouled surfaces are an issue.

You mentioned water can be "pulled" (pumped is a better term) up hill. In reality "uphill" and "downhill" are irrelevant - what is relevant is the head effect. To pump water over a long distances requires groups of pumps in series; and those groups in parallel with other groups. Off the shelf industrial pumps exactly for this application (see Siemens etc.,) are available.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:31 PM   #18733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXSBass View Post
Vulcan, I can assure you, engineers do have the capability to pump water over long distances. Naturally cost is the prohibiting factor as you mentioned.

Desalination plants are expensive. It's not just the capital cost of constructing one; but also the cost of running it. Fouling is a massive issue at desalination plants. Replacing fouled surfaces are an issue.

You mentioned water can be "pulled" (pumped is a better term) up hill. In reality "uphill" and "downhill" are irrelevant - what is relevant is the head effect. To pump water over a long distances requires groups of pumps in series; and those groups in parallel with other groups. Off the shelf industrial pumps exactly for this application (see Siemens etc.,) are available.

Sorry, should have made myself clearer - yes, any liquid can be forced to move upwards by pumps (which can push or pull). And I guess one-way valves can be incorporated into pipelines to prevent a build up of reverse pressure - but as you say, the expense of this is considerable.


You can see why a precious liquid like oil could be moved overland like this, and there might be an economic case for moving water this way to an arid area, allowing agriculture to flourish. But can it ever make sense to use precious electrical energy to move water to the south east of England?
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:35 PM   #18734
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But can it ever make sense to use precious electrical energy to move water to the south east of England?
Yes, considering droughts and various "hosepipe bans" in the South East are very disruptive. Also wholesale electricity (adjusted for inflation) is becoming cheaper, and greener.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:48 PM   #18735
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Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
It would be nice to be able to talk about its real deficiencies, but instead the discussion is constantly pulled back to its fictional ones.

The 'Y' of HS2 does have some deficiencies, the lack of provision for heavy rail interchange in Birmingham is probably the worst. I also wish the northern end of phase 1 had been located much nearer Stafford - certainly north of the problematic Shugborough tunnel.

I would however absolutely refuse to acknowledge the lack of add-ons in phase 2 as a project deficiency - what is being built is a huge enough task, it is unreasonable to expect everything we want to be built in one go. Plus the available budget has limitations and skilled staff may not be adequate in numbers for add-ons. You know what they say about not building Rome in a day. HS2 Ltd will in time need to promote a phase 3 and a phase 4 for the dedicated HS tracks to reach Scotland, the North East region, York, Liverpool etc.
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Old May 13th, 2017, 01:03 AM   #18736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
The 'Y' of HS2 does have some deficiencies, the lack of provision for heavy rail interchange in Birmingham is probably the worst. I also wish the northern end of phase 1 had been located much nearer Stafford - certainly north of the problematic Shugborough tunnel.

I would however absolutely refuse to acknowledge the lack of add-ons in phase 2 as a project deficiency - what is being built is a huge enough task, it is unreasonable to expect everything we want to be built in one go. Plus the available budget has limitations and skilled staff may not be adequate in numbers for add-ons. You know what they say about not building Rome in a day. HS2 Ltd will in time need to promote a phase 3 and a phase 4 for the dedicated HS tracks to reach Scotland, the North East region, York, Liverpool etc.
Quite. Poor integration where stations are being built was the kind of thing I was thinking of. I appreciate that integration with New Street is problematic, but I'm sure a better solution could have been arrived at that would at least have entailed better interchanges. Indeed where integration of the HS2 plans and onward public transport connections have been achieved it seems to have been done almost solely by the efforts of activist local authorities (Greater Manchester foremost among them, but to a lesser extent Sheffield and Leeds). I know this was something David Higgins promoted when he joined the organisation, but it probably should have been embedded in its designs from day 1.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 01:21 PM   #18737
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Yes, a small group of diehard supporters of the scheme who are loathe to accept any of its deficiencies!
Yes, groupthink certainly reigns supreme on this thread, bonkers thoughts to be found on almost every page, expressed by bloggers who don't seem to have the capacity to challenge HS2 Ltd's conventional wisdom or 'expertise'.

Note that it was the genius consultants and planners who thought it would be a
great idea to lavish billions of pounds on brilliantly thought out schemes such as Waterloo International.

Or take Euston HS2 station as a more recent example of planning with amazing foresight. The extension work will wreak havoc for thousands of locals until the 2030s.
If that isn't bonkers enough, the extended Euston (to include 11 platforms) will not manage such volume of rail passengers, forecast to treble by the 2030s.
Crossrail 1 or 2 stations at Euston will be heaving under the sheer numbers.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #18738
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... but there is a likely solution.

About 50% of HS2 traffic could be routed into a new tunnel (100 or so metres north of Euston) leading to an underground HS2 terminus beneath Hungerford Bridge (alongside the tube line) with easy access from both sides of the river.

A total of 6 HS2 platforms each would suffice for both Euston and the new terminus. This would ease congestion and result in good dispersal of arriving/departing passengers, serving 2 central London destinations at lesser disruption and possible cost, than presently proposed.
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Old May 14th, 2017, 05:29 PM   #18739
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Originally Posted by bloganista View Post
... but there is a likely solution.

About 50% of HS2 traffic could be routed into a new tunnel (100 or so metres north of Euston) leading to an underground HS2 terminus beneath Hungerford Bridge (alongside the tube line) with easy access from both sides of the river.

A total of 6 HS2 platforms each would suffice for both Euston and the new terminus. This would ease congestion and result in good dispersal of arriving/departing passengers, serving 2 central London destinations at lesser disruption and possible cost, than presently proposed.
Fascinating - this I suspect would be the world's first railway station with it's own super - sewer passing right through the platforms.

Let me guess - you've never heard of this little project? https://www.tideway.london/

Something else for you to digest.... https://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/wswupgrade
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Old May 14th, 2017, 05:52 PM   #18740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloganista View Post
Yes, groupthink certainly reigns supreme on this thread, bonkers thoughts to be found on almost every page, expressed by bloggers who don't seem to have the capacity to challenge HS2 Ltd's conventional wisdom or 'expertise'.

Note that it was the genius consultants and planners who thought it would be a
great idea to lavish billions of pounds on brilliantly thought out schemes such as Waterloo International.

Or take Euston HS2 station as a more recent example of planning with amazing foresight. The extension work will wreak havoc for thousands of locals until the 2030s.
If that isn't bonkers enough, the extended Euston (to include 11 platforms) will not manage such volume of rail passengers, forecast to treble by the 2030s.
Crossrail 1 or 2 stations at Euston will be heaving under the sheer numbers.
Waterloo International has a long and very useful future ahead of it, trains will still be running in and out of it long after you and I are wormfood. I was watching the building works there just the other day and remembering what it replaced. Effectively Waterloo since the early 1990s has gained two extra platforms that are 240m long. And the five platforms in the old Windsor Lines station were only 160m long, so their length is more than doubled. They would have had to be rebuilt regardless of the use by Eurostar between 1994 and 2007.

It is hysterical to think that anyone could believe 36 long-distance train movements every hour could somehow be serviced by just six platforms. Even more farcical is the notion that it would be worthwhile to create an underground station under the sodden soil beneath the Thames!

What is great about the UK is that those with zero comprehension of complex things are allowed to witter on to their heart's content, often creating a fantasy alternative reality in their own heads. Of course these individuals are ignored by the grown-ups who actually design our infrastructure, and politely ignored again by those who are tasked to make the decisions about building this kind of thing. HS2 Ltd are now getting on with building the reality at Euston, all you are doing is making yourself look silly in public. Your 'alternatives' are risable, you are not even aware of basic engineering limitations.
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