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Old October 9th, 2017, 01:04 PM   #19521
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Originally Posted by bench_mark_2 View Post
We are discussing a particular type of trains - those for Acela Express services. They are desined for this speed. And this is not a future technology, these trainsets are being manufactured.
The tilting technology in the Alstom Pendolino trains is of course proven, but they are not high-speed trains. At this point no-one has built a tilting HSR capable design (over 255 km/h), so the technology is unproven. There is not even an existing prototype being built.

It is a matter of public record that when HS2 Ltd outlined their specifications for the phase 1 fleet, they clearly made the point that they would not be willing to order unproven technology. One of the firm specifications by HS2 Ltd however was that trains must have a design speed of at least 360km/h.

All this can be found in the documents available for download here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ck-procurement

I think I can safely say that John Burns has never bothered to read them, hence why he keeps wibbling on and on about tilting trains, out of ignorance.

As these trains will be ordered in 2019 I would say with some confidence that the chance of tilt being considered are zero.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 01:05 PM   #19522
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Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
No, Manchester isn't paying for it. The understanding is that Manchester will at least contribute the cost of the Airport station*, while the government through HS2 will cover the cost of the tunnel itself.

The reason it is being built is because the capacity on the lines south of Manchester is insufficient to provide the level of service that HS2 believe Manchester will need. A new route into the city centre is needed. Cheaper options were available, but due to problems with the station sites in Salford they weren't that much cheaper (Piccadilly is a very cheap station by HS2 standards).

*It is also likely to have to contribute to the more integrated design of Piccadilly that local stakeholders want (presuming that goes ahead), as that's an added cost that HS2 aren't willing to cover.
Quite so Che.

We might add that Phase 2b (with the Manchester tunnel) greatly improves on the Benefit Cost Ratio of Phase 2a. In principle, Phase 2a (as far as Crewe) would still be worth building on its own, but in actuality HS2 recognise that 2a could not function as a stand-alone scheme - not least becuase without the Phase 2b tunnel under Crewe, the likely Crewe Hub rebuild of the lines through Crewe would not be possible; and without a complete rebuild of the lines through Crewe, the service pattern proposed for Phase 2a would not be deliverable, particularly in respect of increasing the paths from Lime Street to Euston from 1 tph to 2 tph.

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Completing the full Y causes significant increases in benefits by:

• Further improving HS2 journey times on the Western Leg to locations including
Manchester, Preston and Scotland
• Constructing the high speed station in Manchester, allowing HS2 trains to be
extended from 200m in length to 400m, improving capacity
• Constructing the Eastern Leg, bringing journey time improvements and capacity
to the East Midlands, Sheffield, Leeds and East Coast Mainline (ECML) stations
such as Newcastle and York
In respect of the Manchester tunnels, the key point is the second. Without them, the three Piccadilly-Euston paths per hour would be limited to 200m units (effectively providing fewer seats per hour than the current 3 tph on extended Pendolino trains). With the tunnels, the HS2 trains can carry double the number of passengers, and this in itself justifies the extra cost of the spur.

Overall, the BCR for the Phase 2b Eastern Leg has the highest BCR, then the Phase 2b Western extensions (towards Manchester and Preston), then the Phase 2a line as far as Crewe.

Last edited by nerd; October 9th, 2017 at 04:45 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 01:16 PM   #19523
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Hahaha, so they're doing all this work to connect Manchester for Liverpool's sake then?
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Old October 9th, 2017, 01:24 PM   #19524
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Hahaha, so they're doing all this work to connect Manchester for Liverpool's sake then?
not what HS2 are saying at all.

For phase 2a to work as a stand-alone scheme, a rebuild of Crewe station would be needed to create the capacity for Liverpool to have two paths per hour to Euston. Notionally therefore, the cost of such a rebuild should have been included in the Phase 2a budget. But in actuality, the Phase 2b tunnel has created the possibility of rebuilding Crewe as the 'Crewe Hub' (the costs for which are most helpfully being kept off the HS2 budget). So HS2 has now abandoned all work on a pure Phase 2a reconstruction in Crewe - they are assuming that Crewe Hub will be funded, built and complete when Phase 2a opens. The tricky bit is that this then requires the Crewe Hub to support two successive service patterns; an interim pattern from 2027 to 2033, and a definitive pattern once the Phase 2b tunnel under Crewe is commissioned.

The biggest beneficiaries of Phase 2a (in terms of increasing speed and capacity) are services from Lime Street to Euston; while the biggest beneficiaries of Phase 2b (Western Leg) are services from Piccadilly to Euston.

Both Liverpool and Manchester benefit from Phase 2 overall; although Liverpool could benefit more were the NPR/20mm link to be built.

As far as I am aware; the above is common ground in almost all posters on here (or at least the ones that pay attention to the numbers).
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Old October 9th, 2017, 02:15 PM   #19525
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Originally Posted by nerd View Post
.......
As far as I am aware; the above is common ground in almost all posters on here (or at least the ones that pay attention to the numbers).
As well as the vast majority of business groups across the north, including on Merseyside

As well as the vast majority of councils across the north, including on Merseyside

As well as the vast majority of MPs across the north, including on Merseyside

Understandably those affected by blight are not going to be supportive, however, the opposition that is witnessed from the Merseyside Echo Chamber on this forum is entirely constrained amongst no more than a dozen or so extremists though and is certainly not an opinion you see shared away from this forum by anyone that has any involvement in the scheme, business or politics.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 03:42 PM   #19526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Darwin View Post

Understandably those affected by blight are not going to be supportive, however, the opposition that is witnessed from the Merseyside Echo Chamber on this forum is entirely constrained amongst no more than a dozen or so extremists though and is certainly not an opinion you see shared away from this forum by anyone that has any involvement in the scheme, business or politics.
What is both peculiar and slightly amusing to observe is that the dozen headbangers (and their mentor / idol Mad John) appear to take some kind of strange comfort from the bizarre belief that phase 2b (Crewe-Manchester / Golborne, plus Water Orton - Leeds/Church Fenton) is going to cancelled. It's almost as if the reality is too hard to face, so they tell each other a fairy tale. Aren't folk strange?

Rational people of course can easily understand that the political backlash from cancellation would be huge. In practical terms Crewe would be stuffed with conflicting trains, NPR would be as dead as a dodo and there would be no kind of relief on offer for the MML/ECML.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 03:53 PM   #19527
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Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
What is both peculiar and slightly amusing to observe is that the dozen headbangers (and their mentor / idol Mad John) appear to take some kind of strange comfort from the bizarre belief that phase 2b (Crewe-Manchester / Golborne, plus Water Orton - Leeds/Church Fenton) is going to cancelled. It's almost as if the reality is too hard to face, so they tell each other a fairy tale. Aren't folk strange?

Rational people of course can easily understand that the political backlash from cancellation would be huge. In practical terms Crewe would be stuffed with conflicting trains, NPR would be as dead as a dodo and there would be no kind of relief on offer for the MML/ECML.
In an era when austerity is becoming policy with support draining away it's a little odd to think that Phase 2B is going to be dropped now given it was supported at the time of peak austerity!
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:03 PM   #19528
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As well as the vast majority of business groups across the north, including on Merseyside

As well as the vast majority of councils across the north, including on Merseyside

As well as the vast majority of MPs across the north, including on Merseyside

Understandably those affected by blight are not going to be supportive, however, the opposition that is witnessed from the Merseyside Echo Chamber on this forum is entirely constrained amongst no more than a dozen or so extremists though and is certainly not an opinion you see shared away from this forum by anyone that has any involvement in the scheme, business or politics.
Still slagging off scousers. Interesting.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:03 PM   #19529
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Aside from all the blah blah blah that is no doubt in the last few hundred pages (not looked so Ive no idea whats been said).

HS2 north of Crewe is being built mainly to put HS2 trains directly into the heart of Manchester. The line is to be extremely costly and were it not for the fact that Manchester is to pay for it it wouldnt be built at all... Is that correct?
Not correct. Manchester only pay for the airport station. The extremely costly diversion around Tatton and the 8 mile tunnel is out out public funds. Madness to divert the line to a station which will be one of the least used in the UK.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:18 PM   #19530
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The reason it is being built is because the capacity on the lines south of Manchester is insufficient to provide the level of service that HS2 believe Manchester will need.
It is FOUR track into Manchester via Stockport. It is only 2 track on the wcml north of Crewe. Manchester is NOT short of capacity from Crewe. The HS2 line from Crewe to Manchester is a total waste of public funds when the NHS is crying out for funds.

Last edited by paperbacker righter; October 9th, 2017 at 11:50 PM.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #19531
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The HS2 line from Crewe to Manchester is a total waste of public funds when the NHS is crying out for funds.
A dedicated line from Crewe to Liverpool would be a better idea, right?
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:28 PM   #19532
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A dedicated line from Crewe to Liverpool would be a better idea, right?
And then on to Manchester via the ship canal?
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Old October 9th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #19533
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Still slagging off scousers. Interesting.
Explaining to people like yourself what's in the HS2 Command Paper - informative

Highlighting that your opinion is not ever represented away from this forum is simple fact, only taken as a slight if you're seriously out of touch with what's actually happening, as you highlighted with your uninformed emotional opinions on new and what the HS2 remit is.
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Old October 9th, 2017, 11:54 PM   #19534
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In an era when austerity is becoming policy with support draining away it's a little odd to think that Phase 2B is going to be dropped now given it was supported at the time of peak austerity!
When trains are getting to Manchester a few minutes less than the proposed HS2, let us see if public opinion will stomach billions spent on getting to a rather unimportant provincial city a few minutes faster. Dream on Manc boy.

Phase 2b in the north west as it stands will not go ahead. That part of HS2 is a waste of public money.

Last edited by paperbacker righter; October 9th, 2017 at 11:59 PM.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:03 AM   #19535
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A dedicated line from Crewe to Liverpool would be a better idea, right?
Maybe. But one thing is clear, the leg around Tatton into a station facing the wrong way to save a few minutes from Crewe will NOT go ahead. Public opinion will rise against such a waste of money.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:05 AM   #19536
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Originally Posted by paperbacker righter View Post
When trains are getting to Manchester a few minutes less than the proposed HS2, let us see if public opinion will stomach billions spent on getting to a rather unimportant provincial city a few minutes faster. Dream on Manc boy.

Phase 2b in the north west as it stands will not go ahead. That part of HS2 is a waste of public money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

Second on here. Fairly unimportant.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:07 AM   #19537
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I'm pretty certain those numbers (1.75m per year) from Virgin Trains are for people who join the train at Lime St - obviously some actually start their journeys in the wider LCR and get to Lime St on Merseyrail.

And of course Liverpool is an important market, and the recent growth figures will bolster the case for providing a dedicated link under the NPR budget. And if that happens then at least one fast train an hour to London should be provided. However the people who use Wigan/Warrington/Runcorn etc. in preference to Lime St will largely still wish to do so when HS2 starts - there are clearly reasons why they consider Lime St unsuitable as a starting point. When the frequency ramps up to 2TPH with HS2 a modest number may decide to switch to Lime St, but that will happen regardless of a dedicated new line being built.

We have no data that breaks down the home address of people who join the Virgin train services at Wigan/Warrington/Runcorn/Chester in preference to Lime Street. I think it unlikely those who live in Liverpool will add another 461,000 journeys a year from these stations but you never know. What is apparent is that a lot of people (not yourself) arguing for Liverpool / against Manchester automatically assume that everyone using Virgin services from Wigan/Warrington/Runcorn/Chester is a Scouser. That of course is unrealistic.
It's 1.77m not 1.75m ( just seeing if I can get the last word in).
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:08 AM   #19538
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A dedicated line from Crewe to Liverpool would be a better idea, right?
Again for you.....
It is FOUR track into Manchester via Stockport. It is only 2 track on the wcml north of Crewe. Manchester is NOT short of capacity from Crewe. The HS2 line from Crewe to Manchester is a total waste of public funds when the NHS is crying out for funds.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #19539
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Is it normal to answer to the same post twice?
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:13 AM   #19540
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

Second on here. Fairly unimportant.
Greater Manchester is TWICE the area of Merseyside. Manchester is a rather unimportant place not warranting billions to access it.
Get used to it.
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