search the site
 daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Transport, Urban Planning and Infrastructure

Transport, Urban Planning and Infrastructure Shaping space, urbanity and mobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 19th, 2017, 11:18 AM   #19681
Scott Darwin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 80

I'll take that as a no then.

Given Birmingham is the most similar city to Manchester in the UK in terms of economic size and rail demand for medium and long distances I'm surprised you didn't add that to your comparison, surely much more relevant that Liverpool which isn't similar in terms of economy or rail demand.

I'll leave you to your Manc obsession.
Scott Darwin no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 19th, 2017, 11:23 AM   #19682
ElectroSoldier
Registered User
 
ElectroSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,921
Likes (Received): 293

Quote:
Originally Posted by nidave View Post
But It was claimed that all trains from Manchester are empty.
I Quote:


I was giving my personal experience yesterday evening and the fact I travel at various times during the day and they are very well loaded if not full in my experance- so now you are saying they are NOT empty?
I am saying there are a lot more empty seats per year than there are full ones.
You are the one who is talking about specific instances not me.

Maybe a lot of people fill those seats at Stoke and go to Manchester, maybe they get on at Crewe and go to Manchester.

That doesnt really matter with regards to how the data plays out when taken in relation to HS2 does it, as those passengers will no longer count as passengers on HS2 services from Manchester will they.

Jeremy Corbyn tried the same kind of stunt as you are now when he tried to highlight just how over subscribed the trains are. It was his hard luck that on the service he tried to highlight the lack of seats there were empty seats and it all blew up in his face because he looked like a lying c**t
ElectroSoldier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 11:28 AM   #19683
ElectroSoldier
Registered User
 
ElectroSoldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,921
Likes (Received): 293

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Darwin View Post
I'll take that as a no then.

Given Birmingham is the most similar city to Manchester in the UK in terms of economic size and rail demand for medium and long distances I'm surprised you didn't add that to your comparison, surely much more relevant that Liverpool which isn't similar in terms of economy or rail demand.

I'll leave you to your Manc obsession.
You cam take it as a no because that is what I said.

Somebody asked a question, specifically about Manchester compared to Liverpool, there was nothing mentioned about Birmingham or Leeds, if they had I would have included them, but they didnt, so I didnt either.

Yes I think it would be best to leave me to it as so far you have added little to nothing to the thread with your two posts.
__________________

mmcd liked this post
ElectroSoldier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 12:54 PM   #19684
Scott Darwin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 80

Question about HS2 train ordering.

My understanding is the initial train purchase will be for only classic compatible trains, even for the Birmingham services such could potentially run captive trains.

Would I be correct in thinking they'll be ordering ALL classic compatible trains at that point, essentially enough to run all long term future services with those used to Birmingham and Manchester at all being reallocated to the east and other areas?

Then at phase 2B train ordering they order the captive trains for Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham?

The reason I ask is if they do order ALL the classic compatible trains in the near future, that presumably means that future works by NPR, HS4 to Scotland etc would probably still see the classic compatible trains used when captive ones could be.

Essentially, are HS2 about to have to decide the make up of the train fleet before the outcome of NPR is known and HS4 is even planned?
Scott Darwin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 01:25 PM   #19685
Scott Darwin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 80

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...t-2016-to-2017

Spending last financial year
Scott Darwin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #19686
Cherguevara
Registered User
 
Cherguevara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,783
Likes (Received): 3419

I'd expect NPH Rail not to use the same stock as HS2, as it's more of a regional commuter system (albeit a fast one) than a point to point intercity one. Maybe something like the Class 395s that run the Southeastern high speed services.
__________________

Scott Darwin liked this post
Cherguevara no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 01:45 PM   #19687
Scott Darwin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 80

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
I'd expect NPH Rail not to use the same stock as HS2, as it's more of a regional commuter system (albeit a fast one) than a point to point intercity one. Maybe something like the Class 395s that run the Southeastern high speed services.
I hate to use this example, but the most obvious question is do HS2 order classic compatible trains in 2019 on the basis that long term Liverpool is served by classic compatible units?

There will be a £10m's investment decision to be made before NPR has anything remotely close to having confirmed funding for anything.

Suppose they could have options in the order but the ordering of trains to use on HS2 has complex dependencies on the timescales of NPR.
Scott Darwin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 01:54 PM   #19688
Cherguevara
Registered User
 
Cherguevara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 9,783
Likes (Received): 3419

I still don't see it as much of a problem. No captive station has to be served by captive trains. If HS2 end up with more classic compatible trains than they need they'll just use them on some potentially captive services.
__________________

Scott Darwin liked this post
Cherguevara no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 02:05 PM   #19689
Scott Darwin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 80

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
I still don't see it as much of a problem. No captive station has to be served by captive trains. If HS2 end up with more classic compatible trains than they need they'll just use them on some potentially captive services.
That's kind of where my mind is tbh.

I'm half expecting even with captive lines to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool etc they'd still be served by classic compatible trains possibly.

That being the case, will NPR be 100% captive, or will costs be kept down by 'pragmatic' use of old track in areas where costs would be high, e.g. Station approaches.

There are many unknowns about how NPR intends to operate and what that means in reality.

In many ways this seems a much bigger question for Sheffield north link to Leeds and the possible connection to Manc, is it designed to be captive, if such very expensive at Midland, or classic compatible, if such how much more will be classic compatible only.
Scott Darwin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 02:34 PM   #19690
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,455

HS2 overordering classic-compatible trains because NPR makes Liverpool captive isn't a huge problem, as NPR would want classic-compatible trains for Sheffield-Leeds anyway and they can cascade.
__________________

Scott Darwin, Vulcan's Finest liked this post
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 05:33 PM   #19691
Vulcan's Finest
In the brig
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 7,064
Likes (Received): 1555

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
I'd expect NPH Rail not to use the same stock as HS2, as it's more of a regional commuter system (albeit a fast one) than a point to point intercity one. Maybe something like the Class 395s that run the Southeastern high speed services.
Agreed, and I doubt the trains will need to be be 200m long either. The 395s offer a good example being six vehicles and roughly 120m long - so on many classic routes they can be doubled up.

The AT300 design is pretty flexible - I imagine they could offer five car units instead of 24/25m vehicle length, the IEP is already 26m. IIRC the only reason the 395s were built with short vehicles was due to a couple of sharp curves at station platforms on the old Southern Region.
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 05:47 PM   #19692
mmcd
Registered User
 
mmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,569
Likes (Received): 1367

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroSoldier View Post
You cam take it as a no because that is what I said.

Somebody asked a question, specifically about Manchester compared to Liverpool, there was nothing mentioned about Birmingham or Leeds, if they had I would have included them, but they didnt, so I didnt either.

Yes I think it would be best to leave me to it as so far you have added little to nothing to the thread with your two posts.
Listening to those three is like parking 3 empty hoover bags in front of each other and switching them on.
mmcd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 06:00 PM   #19693
nerd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,686
Likes (Received): 1827

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Agreed, and I doubt the trains will need to be be 200m long either. The 395s offer a good example being six vehicles and roughly 120m long - so on many classic routes they can be doubled up.

The AT300 design is pretty flexible - I imagine they could offer five car units instead of 24/25m vehicle length, the IEP is already 26m. IIRC the only reason the 395s were built with short vehicles was due to a couple of sharp curves at station platforms on the old Southern Region.
In my view, a lot of discussion of the train specification tends rather to miss a key point; which is platform height. The 'captive' platforms will be that much higher (1100mm) than the NR standard (915mm) so as to allow level boarding and movement within the train units. These platform heights will be a great deal higher than those either of the two proposed for Euro-standard GC gauge (550mm, 760mm). HS2 have always been insistent on no compromise on this point (even though the 'COMMUNITY OF EUROPEAN RAILWAYS' had refused to approve this as a derogation; not just for DDA compliance, but also to allow rapid turnround at terminus stations.

I suspect we will find level-boarding platforms heights being specified on both HS2 and NPR newbuild platforms where possible (e.g. were Lime Street to be rebuilt) - even were these platforms not to be served by 'captive' stock. Nor would that be different if no captive stock were to be ordered at all.
nerd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 06:05 PM   #19694
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,127
Likes (Received): 1699

I've always been a bit perplexed over EU rules on platform heights. What are the reasons for not permitting level boarding?
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 06:51 PM   #19695
Vulcan's Finest
In the brig
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 7,064
Likes (Received): 1555

Quote:
Originally Posted by nidave View Post
But It was claimed that all trains from Manchester are empty.

I was giving my personal experience yesterday evening and the fact I travel at various times during the day and they are very well loaded if not full in my experance- so now you are saying they are NOT empty?
I doubt he will listen to actual proof.

Isn't it peculiar though how many posters who identify themselves as being from Liverpool are parroting the same line about 'empty' Manchester trains? Again, this begs two questions.

1) Why would Virgin not sell all those empty seats and forgo the available revenue (a percentage of which they keep)?
2) It also begs the question why so many Scousers are supposedly travelling between Manchester and London rather on trains from Lime St? Assuming they are of course.

In reality train loadings vary widely throughout the day and also on different days, especially off-peak. First made the point in 2012 that based on the known seating capacity of the 221/390 fleets and WCML daily diagrams the current loading implied that only 31% of seats would be on average occupied (and 69% were not). In others words, there are lots of empty seats at quiet times. On some parts of the national railway at quiet times the operator reduces the number of carriages, but this is not an option with the 390 Pendolinos.

The observations of one individual are valid for that single service on a particular day, but of course other than a group of Virgin train despachers, no individual(s) can possibly state how full each and every one of the 46 departures from Manchester to London are, even for one single day.

Perhaps with the new fares the off-peak Liverpool services on departure from Lime St are now a bit better loaded than those from Piccadilly - but really, so what? No-one on this board knows how many passengers join at all the intermediate stations, or how full all the trains are on their arrival in London. The last official info we had on that point was in 2012 before the 390s were all lengthened - it said on Fridays there were four Manchester trains that arrived full and standing at Euston, and one from Liverpool.
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 06:55 PM   #19696
Vulcan's Finest
In the brig
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 7,064
Likes (Received): 1555

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmcd View Post
Listening to those three is like parking 3 empty hoover bags in front of each other and switching them on.

Ah bless... it must be hard for you. It is very noticeable that you cannot deal with selfish people having factual discussions about things you know little about.

Time maybe to throw in a paranoid rant or two, call another poster names or discuss your online dating prospects?
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 07:22 PM   #19697
nerd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,686
Likes (Received): 1827

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I've always been a bit perplexed over EU rules on platform heights. What are the reasons for not permitting level boarding?
Pure obstructionism, so far as I can see. Everyone agrees that there cannot be more than two European standard platform heights; so that manufacturers and operators can work across European borders. Everyone agrees too (I think) that level boarding is highly desirable - and German S-bahn systems are already standardising on 960mm as a uniform platform height for level boarding and no internal steps.

But my impression (happy to be corrected if wrong) is that 960mm is not practicable for High Speed Rail. So the CER committee already have the problem of being ignored by the Germans; now they face the prospect of being ignored by the British too. They fear that if HS2 decides on 1100 mm (or whichever height between 1100 and 1200; the specs are flexible) then that will become the EU level boarding standard for HSR; and they will then have to de-recognise one or another of their existing standards.

So they argue that a few extra minutes turnround - and a great deal of extra inconvenience for disabled travellers - should not stand in the way of the goal of cross-national common standards. It took them long enough to standardise on two heights - no country will voluntarily lose out if one were to be dropped.
nerd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 07:37 PM   #19698
Vulcan's Finest
In the brig
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 7,064
Likes (Received): 1555

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroSoldier View Post
The challenge layed down was to show if Liverpool trains are busier than Manchester ones.
Going on the basis that they both use 11 car trains then yes its easy to show with published figures that Liverpool trains are slightly busier..
Do you not understand that Virgin runs both 9 and 11-car pendolinos to all destinations? To even begin to calculate the available seats to each city you need to know exactly how many seats are on offer. It is obvious you have no concept of fleet diagrams, never mind having any access to them.

Quote:
The real problem is that those figures, and the fact that Mancheser gets 3tph are being used to shape the future services of HS2.
If you use those figures blindly as Vulcan wants you to then Manchester clearly requires the HS2 service proposed, but if you actually look into it (something he doesnt want you to do and dismisses proofs when you do) you will see its at the very least nowhere near as busy as all that, thus the HS2 trains will not be as full as you are lead to believe.
All this is just your personal opinion based on zero evidence. After phase 2 opens the number of seats each hour to/from Manchester will be a choice of: a) 1,584, b) 2112, c) 2,640 or d) 3,168. This figure can be adjusted according to demand (I doubt 3,168 will be needed for many years). The comparable figure for Liverpool will be 1,056 with 2TPH.

At quiet times the Liverpool trains are likely to be emptier.

Quote:
Wimslow and Stockport passengers will be funnelled into Manchester to boost the numbers of passengers there because otherwise a train would leave Manchester with only Manchester users
You do talk some right nonsense. No-one will be forced to do anything or made to go one way. Current users of Stockport may catch the train to Piccadilly or Crewe to join HS2 or they may wish to drive to the new HS2 airport station instead. Current users of Wilmslow may catch the train to Crewe or drive to the nearby new HS2 airport station instead.

Quote:
The low passenger numbers are being touted as high passenger numbers in order to get something they want, but isnt actually required.
Seriously? You consider in excess of 4 million passengers using Piccadilly and Stockport as 'low'?
__________________

Rapidtransitman liked this post
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 08:45 PM   #19699
nidave
Registered User
 
nidave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 909
Likes (Received): 712

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroSoldier View Post
I am saying there are a lot more empty seats per year than there are full ones.
You are the one who is talking about specific instances not me.

Maybe a lot of people fill those seats at Stoke and go to Manchester, maybe they get on at Crewe and go to Manchester.

That doesnt really matter with regards to how the data plays out when taken in relation to HS2 does it, as those passengers will no longer count as passengers on HS2 services from Manchester will they.

Jeremy Corbyn tried the same kind of stunt as you are now when he tried to highlight just how over subscribed the trains are. It was his hard luck that on the service he tried to highlight the lack of seats there were empty seats and it all blew up in his face because he looked like a lying c**t
hahah touched a nerve have I? Boooo hooo!
You tell me where I said it was standing room only and I had to sit on the floor?
nidave no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2017, 08:46 PM   #19700
Vulcan's Finest
In the brig
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 7,064
Likes (Received): 1555

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Darwin View Post
Question about HS2 train ordering.

My understanding is the initial train purchase will be for only classic compatible trains, even for the Birmingham services such could potentially run captive trains.

Would I be correct in thinking they'll be ordering ALL classic compatible trains at that point, essentially enough to run all long term future services with those used to Birmingham and Manchester at all being reallocated to the east and other areas?

Then at phase 2B train ordering they order the captive trains for Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham?

The reason I ask is if they do order ALL the classic compatible trains in the near future, that presumably means that future works by NPR, HS4 to Scotland etc would probably still see the classic compatible trains used when captive ones could be.

Essentially, are HS2 about to have to decide the make up of the train fleet before the outcome of NPR is known and HS4 is even planned?
The initial order in 2019 will be for about 60 classic compatibles. This is sufficient for the WCML services planned in phase 1 and phase 2a (which if you remember will need only the first six platforms built at Euston for HS2. So from 2026 Birmingham will be served by classic compatibles.

Around 2026-27 I would expect to see a second order made for rolling stock. This should include the number of captive sets required for eight departures an hour from Euston (3x Brum, 3x Manchester, 2x Leeds). But even then more classic compatibles will have to be ordered. By then the extent of NPR and planned HS3 / HS4 extensions should be clear.... hopefully.

Unless NPR somehow provides captive gauge tracks to Liverpool by the 2033 deadline, you can guarantee that classic compatibles will form most or all of those services for several decades to come - the same applies to Scottish, Sheffield and Newcastle services. The captives will always be in a minority.
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
high speed rail, hs2, rail, railways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu