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Old April 15th, 2014, 12:00 PM   #5581
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To an extent we agree, except that for me the UK is the unnecessary level in the middle, perhaps you might mention to the Danes that they really need to merge with Germany because they are missing that middle tier....
Cool...

So you'll be joining the Euro after a Yes vote and not wanting currency, research, defence unions, or the Monarchy or anything at all a UK level. It's all "unnecessary", of course.

If you think that, fair play to you. But the SNP doesn't. See...if the policies matched this rhetoric that'd be fine. As it is, they don't. We're in the position where, if there's a Yes majority, the people who will be arguing strongest for Scotland's independence will be the UK, not the Scottish Parliament!

Comparisons with Denmark and Germany are fine if Salmond was truly arguing for independence. As it is, he's not.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 12:32 PM   #5582
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So you'll be joining the Euro after a Yes vote
Incorrect, we will continue using Sterling after independence

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and not wanting currency
Of course we want a currency and will continue using Sterling.

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research
Scotland will continue to partipate in European and worldwide research as well as across these islands.

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defence unions
Scotland will be part of NATO and co-operate on defence matters, as any other sovereign state does around the world, with our partners and neighbours.

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or the Monarchy
Scotland will continue to have Elisabeth, Queen of Scots, as head of state after independence. She is currenrly head of state in Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.

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or anything at all a UK level. It's all "unnecessary", of course.
The rUK and Scotland will continue to cooperate on items of mutual interest.

In ther same way as the British-Irish Council current contains two sovereign states it would then include three in the British-Irish-Scottish Council.

It also has partipicants not within UK from these islands (ie Isle of Man, Jersey).

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Old April 15th, 2014, 04:28 PM   #5583
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Cool...

So you'll be joining the Euro after a Yes vote and not wanting currency, research, defence unions, or the Monarchy or anything at all a UK level. It's all "unnecessary", of course.
We don't need to share a government to have any of these things.
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Old April 15th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #5584
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Stating assertion as fact there, Johnny.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 01:12 PM   #5585
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I'm neutral as far as independence goes - don't mind if you go, happy if you stay so hope you guys don't mind me asking a question or two?

Being in England there isn't much discussion about independence other than in the press or TV. and even then lots of other things are in front of it on the bulletins, for the average Joe it doesn't seem to register much at least no one I know ever mentions it.

However, up there it must be hotting up a bit so I wondered what Scots generally make of Alex Salmond's bluff, bluster and bullying remark when Osborne rejected a currency union.

Can't help but feel the UK government can't win in some ways if they comment from London they're preaching from on high and if they speak in Scotland they're lecturing Scots in their own country.

To me (if you ignore the bluff bit) it just seemed like pointing out a fact of life after a possible yes vote. Salmond must realise that the UK will negotiate for its own benefit so perhaps it's a case of trying to convince the voter that really a CU is going to happen no matter what politicians down south say?

It also seems to me that the way Salmond talks about Tory toffs (I'm no Tory by the way) and alleges bullying and the like doesn't sound very statesmanlike for a potential PM on the world stage and maybe makes him look like a petulant child?

As I said in England we aren't in the heat of it so maybe our perspective is very different?

Interested to hear any thoughts on this.
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Old April 16th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #5586
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Old April 16th, 2014, 08:58 PM   #5587
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Certainly there is bemusement over Salmond's wishful thinking on many issues here in England and his stock response of "bullying" whenever he's challenged or told someething's not his decision to take. iamafreeman's observations are perfectly valid.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 11:25 AM   #5588
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Originally Posted by iamafreeman View Post
I'm neutral as far as independence goes - don't mind if you go, happy if you stay so hope you guys don't mind me asking a question or two?

Being in England there isn't much discussion about independence other than in the press or TV. and even then lots of other things are in front of it on the bulletins, for the average Joe it doesn't seem to register much at least no one I know ever mentions it.

However, up there it must be hotting up a bit so I wondered what Scots generally make of Alex Salmond's bluff, bluster and bullying remark when Osborne rejected a currency union.

Can't help but feel the UK government can't win in some ways if they comment from London they're preaching from on high and if they speak in Scotland they're lecturing Scots in their own country.

To me (if you ignore the bluff bit) it just seemed like pointing out a fact of life after a possible yes vote. Salmond must realise that the UK will negotiate for its own benefit so perhaps it's a case of trying to convince the voter that really a CU is going to happen no matter what politicians down south say?

It also seems to me that the way Salmond talks about Tory toffs (I'm no Tory by the way) and alleges bullying and the like doesn't sound very statesmanlike for a potential PM on the world stage and maybe makes him look like a petulant child?

As I said in England we aren't in the heat of it so maybe our perspective is very different?

Interested to hear any thoughts on this.
Well, you've basically got four kinds of Scot... those that are confirmed independence supporters, those that are confirmed unionists, those that prefer independence but are worried about the 'risks' of change, and those who don't know and/or aren't that bothered.

The currency 'debate' plays differently to each of these, obviously, but there are plenty of us even in the confirmed supporters groups, who can be reasonably objective about this.

IMHO the most realistic, likely to be true, and rational comment that has been made on all of this is the one attributed to the unknown/unnamed UK government minister, by the guardian... "Of course there would be a currency union," ... "There would be a highly complex set of negotiations after a yes vote, with many moving pieces. The UK wants to keep Trident nuclear weapons at Faslane and the Scottish government wants a currency union – you can see the outlines of a deal."

While this does basically confirm what Salmond is saying with respect to currency union, you do have to ignore his own bluster; both sides are doing a lot of blustering! It is also plain to see that the UK government see the currency as their main bargaining chip, they can't show any weakness over this, or it immediately loses its strength. Likewise the SG can't show any weakness over its position on trident on the clyde. This is all just posturing ahead of the negotiations and both sides are equally at it.

I take your point about UK gov being 'unable to win' but they've hardly done themselves any favours up here in recent decades, and suddenly lavishing lots of attention on us just as we get to a point where we may decide to leave, isn't going to help, it doesn't exactly look very genuine! The UK gov will be less well off if Scotland leaves the UK, it will have less income, and its borrowing costs are likely to rise. If the UK gov really wants to keep us they need to start taking us seriously and take a proper look at federalism, though it's almost certainly far too late now.. e.g. Dave C says he'll fight with every fibre of his being to keep Scotland in the UK - but he's still not offering devo max, is he? And that is all it would take to guarantee a no vote, to be frank. UK gov are, in relation to devolution and federalism, as always, too grudging, never actually buying into it, always trying to get away with as little as possible, and always waiting until the last possible moment! Its their own fault that they can never win.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 12:29 PM   #5589
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Well, you've basically got four kinds of Scot... those that are confirmed independence supporters, those that are confirmed unionists, those that prefer independence but are worried about the 'risks' of change, and those who don't know and/or aren't that bothered.

The currency 'debate' plays differently to each of these, obviously, but there are plenty of us even in the confirmed supporters groups, who can be reasonably objective about this.

IMHO the most realistic, likely to be true, and rational comment that has been made on all of this is the one attributed to the unknown/unnamed UK government minister, by the guardian... "Of course there would be a currency union," ... "There would be a highly complex set of negotiations after a yes vote, with many moving pieces. The UK wants to keep Trident nuclear weapons at Faslane and the Scottish government wants a currency union – you can see the outlines of a deal."

While this does basically confirm what Salmond is saying with respect to currency union, you do have to ignore his own bluster; both sides are doing a lot of blustering! It is also plain to see that the UK government see the currency as their main bargaining chip, they can't show any weakness over this, or it immediately loses its strength. Likewise the SG can't show any weakness over its position on trident on the clyde. This is all just posturing ahead of the negotiations and both sides are equally at it.

I take your point about UK gov being 'unable to win' but they've hardly done themselves any favours up here in recent decades, and suddenly lavishing lots of attention on us just as we get to a point where we may decide to leave, isn't going to help, it doesn't exactly look very genuine! The UK gov will be less well off if Scotland leaves the UK, it will have less income, and its borrowing costs are likely to rise. If the UK gov really wants to keep us they need to start taking us seriously and take a proper look at federalism, though it's almost certainly far too late now.. e.g. Dave C says he'll fight with every fibre of his being to keep Scotland in the UK - but he's still not offering devo max, is he? And that is all it would take to guarantee a no vote, to be frank. UK gov are, in relation to devolution and federalism, as always, too grudging, never actually buying into it, always trying to get away with as little as possible, and always waiting until the last possible moment! Its their own fault that they can never win.
Hi.

That an unnamed minister is quoted in the Guardian as saying that a CU is likely is puzzling in why he/she would say something that is the opposite of all UK parties stated position - unless a LiBDem looking to cause trouble or a Tory who wants to be rid of you!!

Whilst politicians are a shameless bunch one wonders how they could do a U turn on a CU without losing all credibility and incurring the wrath of the UK citizenry, who would not be happy with a CU believe me, or indeed the SNP on Trident.

What rankles with many is that the White Paper claimed there would be a CU although the SNP hadn't thought it polite to even approach the UK to see if that was a possible and of course we the people don't count!!

Also as the SNP has previously said the pound is a millstone around Scotland's neck and a CU would only be for as long as it suited Scotland you can see why many think we are just being used (or abused) as a convenience.

As for the UK government doing Scotland no favours well they weren't (aren't) much interested in anywhere outside of the south east but given many of those years were under a Scottish led Labour government in the shape of Blair, Brown, Darling, Reed and no doubt many more that I can't remember, don't blame us English!!

Interesting times ahead for sure.
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Old April 19th, 2014, 06:50 PM   #5590
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CBI not biased at all!

Scottish independence: STV quits CBI over referendum stance

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-27089800

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Broadcaster STV has become the latest company to leave the CBI after the employers' body formally backed the campaign against Scottish independence.

In a statement, STV said rules on impartiality meant it had "no choice" but to resign from the organisation.

It comes the day after Aquamarine Power and the Balhousie care home group also announced they were quitting the CBI.

The CBI said it was confident the "vast majority" of its membership agreed with its stance on independence.

It has registered with the Electoral Commission as a backer of the pro-Union campaign.

The registration as a non-party participant allows it to spend up to £150,000 on campaigning during the regulated period from 30 May until the referendum on 18 September.

“ In light of CBI Scotland's decision to register with the Electoral Commission we have no choice but to resign our membership”

However, it is understood the CBI - which is the leading body in the UK representing large employers - has no money earmarked to influence the campaign.

Confirming that STV had resigned its membership, a spokeswoman for the Glasgow-based broadcaster said: "STV is a public service broadcaster with a duty of impartiality and as such we have no corporate or editorial position on the independence referendum in September.

"In light of CBI Scotland's decision to register with the Electoral Commission we have no choice but to resign our membership of CBI Scotland forthwith."

Responding to the withdrawals, a CBI spokesman said: "While any member deciding to leave is a cause for regret, the CBI is confident we have a mandate from the vast majority of our membership on the question of Scottish independence.

"As the UK's biggest business group, our members employ around half a million people in Scotland, which gives us a significant voice in the referendum debate."

But in an open letter to CBI Scotland chief executive Iain McMillan, which was released on Friday, Select - which represents 1,250 engineering companies - said: "In taking this action you do not reflect our views."

The letter added: "The owners of our member companies and their employees, like the rest of the Scottish population, cover the full range of political affiliations.

"We are agreed that the way in which each and every person associated with Select votes is a matter for them alone."

A spokeswoman for the pro-independence Business for Scotland organisation said: "We are pleased to hear the news that STV has responded to the pressure we have been exerting and that, like others, they are withdrawing their membership from the CBI."

On Friday, the Better Together campaign, which is campaigning to keep Scotland in the UK, said: "Over the last few months, employer after employer have raised legitimate concerns and asked genuine questions about what leaving the UK would mean for their businesses and for Scottish jobs."
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Old April 19th, 2014, 11:55 PM   #5591
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Hi.

That an unnamed minister is quoted in the Guardian as saying that a CU is likely is puzzling in why he/she would say something that is the opposite of all UK parties stated position - unless a LiBDem looking to cause trouble or a Tory who wants to be rid of you!!

Whilst politicians are a shameless bunch one wonders how they could do a U turn on a CU without losing all credibility and incurring the wrath of the UK citizenry, who would not be happy with a CU believe me, or indeed the SNP on Trident.

What rankles with many is that the White Paper claimed there would be a CU although the SNP hadn't thought it polite to even approach the UK to see if that was a possible and of course we the people don't count!!

Also as the SNP has previously said the pound is a millstone around Scotland's neck and a CU would only be for as long as it suited Scotland you can see why many think we are just being used (or abused) as a convenience.

As for the UK government doing Scotland no favours well they weren't (aren't) much interested in anywhere outside of the south east but given many of those years were under a Scottish led Labour government in the shape of Blair, Brown, Darling, Reed and no doubt many more that I can't remember, don't blame us English!!

Interesting times ahead for sure.
Lol
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Old April 20th, 2014, 01:13 AM   #5592
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CBI not biased at all! Scottish independence: STV quits CBI over referendum stance http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-27089800
Not going to bother bringing this point up in the main independence thread but if the CBI had signed up to Labour, UKIP, BNP etc there'd be a huge outcry. Obvious to most people, just none of the commenters in the other thread can see that it is akin to backing a political party. I personally don't think they should sign up for either side and instead remain neutral until they have the majority backing of their members - at least 3 of the ~80 companies in Scotland they represent have left in just two days. I especially don't think that STV as a news broadcaster should be essentially signing up to an organisation that seems to suggest it is affiliated with the Conservative party..
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Old April 20th, 2014, 05:27 AM   #5593
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for 'ESPImperium' regarding the post in retail thread: that pesky referendum is stopping supermarkets being built and investment!

Confidence grows as Scottish investment hits six year high

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By Stefan Bienkowski

Scotland's economic recovery is well and truly underway with businesses reporting higher levels of confidence and optimism in the first three months of this year, compared to the same period twelve months ago.

In its quarterly business survey published today, the Scottish Chambers of Commerce(SCC) stated that all sectors had reported back with higher levels of confidence in Q1 of 2014, whilst construction, wholesale, retail and tourism saw continued growth.

Conducted by Strathclyde University's Fraser of Allander Institute, the study suggested that a number of signs throughout the economy pointed to a return of pre-recession levels not seen since 2007.

SCC chief executive Liz 
Cameron, who announced the latest results, stated that the signs point to sustained growth.

"Investment intentions of Scottish businesses are encouraging with the manufacturing industry showing superb results with higher levels of investment than at any time in the past 6 years and robust growth in export orders shown by a consistent increase over 5 consecutive quarters," she said.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #5594
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for 'ESPImperium' regarding the post in retail thread: that pesky referendum is stopping supermarkets being built and investment!

Confidence grows as Scottish investment hits six year high
A plus for the success of the Union then.
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Old April 20th, 2014, 04:36 PM   #5595
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A plus for the success of the Union then.
no, not really.

goto page 26, read on from there: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00422987.pdf
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Old April 21st, 2014, 08:51 AM   #5596
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no, not really.

goto page 26, read on from there: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00422987.pdf
A six year high in investment is bad news then?
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Old April 21st, 2014, 04:34 PM   #5597
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A six year high in investment is bad news then?
no but i thought your post was meant to be impartial?

not sounding like that now, is it?
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Old April 21st, 2014, 05:49 PM   #5598
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no but i thought your post was meant to be impartial?

not sounding like that now, is it?
First post, like the second did have, should have had a question mark but looks like I missed it off!

But it is good news isn't it and purely as a statement of fact whilst Scotland is in the Union? Although I'm sure you mean in spite of rather than because of.

I'm entirely neutral, other than for my dislike of the Westminster elite, although I suspect an Edinburgh elite might be no better in the long run. But who knows?
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Old April 21st, 2014, 11:10 PM   #5599
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First post, like the second did have, should have had a question mark but looks like I missed it off!

But it is good news isn't it and purely as a statement of fact whilst Scotland is in the Union? Although I'm sure you mean in spite of rather than because of.

I'm entirely neutral, other than for my dislike of the Westminster elite, although I suspect an Edinburgh elite might be no better in the long run. But who knows?
Wot if only those poor mugs in England who hav,nt even got their own parliament would stop subsiding the whole bloody world then the English would be a lot better off being on their own.
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