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Old January 21st, 2010, 08:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by spencer114 View Post
Examples of spiritial rip offs?

Here's the myth of immaculate conception for starters...


Osiris of Egypt and even Julius Caesar were immaculately conceived—the" latter being the son of the beautiful virgin Cronis Celestine, and begotten by the Father of all Gods, Jupiter. His heir and nephew, Augustus Caesar, was curiously his half brother, as another son of Jove, by whose divine lust he was immaculately conceived in the temple of Apollo.

Both Buddha and Chrishna, of India, were immaculately conceived. The mother of Chrishna was overshadowed by the supreme God, Brahma, and the Holy Ghost was Naraan. Chrishna's mother had given birth seven times previously but remained a virgin. Philostratus, a disciple of Apollonius of Cappadocia, who was contemporary with Jesus Christ , tells that Damis, the mother of Apollonius, gave birth to this god and rival saviour of Jesus Christ, by being overshadowed by the god, Proteus.



Not only saviours but famous men, like Plato, Pythagoras, Alexander, Augustus and others, were thought to have been born miraculously. Plato was born of Paretonia, begotten of Apollo, not Ariston, his father, according to one authority.

The doctrine of immaculate conception is ancient but the manner of the holy conception was different in different countries. Zoroaster was immaculately conceived by a ray from the Divine Reason or Word and this was adopted by medieval artists.

But the idea of being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost seems to have been most current. God, the father of a god was believed to overshadow the mother of a god, to impregnate her. In 550 BC, Pythais, the mother of Pythagoras, conceived by a spectre or ghost of the god Apollo, the Sun-god.

Answer for yourself: Does the ghost of the sun god differ in principle from the Christian Holy Ghost?.

Juno of Rome grew pregnant at the touch of a flower to give birth to Mars. No impregnation could have been purer. So the most immaculate conception of all was that of the god of War! If it sounds absurd, how is it more senseless than conception by a ghost? Botany has shown that, at least, a flower can fertilize other flowers but no science has yet investigated the virility of ghosts.

The Greek Juno, Hera, was immaculately impregnated by the wind to give birth to Vulcan. Here is a close parallel indeed for the word habitually translated as spirit or ghost in the scriptures and continued into the Greek of the New Testament really means breath or wind! So literally the virgin Mary was impregnated by the wind just like Hera. The author of the Perennial Calendar tells us the miraculous conception of Juno Jugulis, the blessed virgin queen of heaven, fell on the second of February, the day of the early Christian festival of the date of the conception of the ever Blessed Virgin Mary.

A Chinese sect worshiped a saviour known as Xaca, who was conceived of his mother, Maia, by a white elephant, which she saw in her sleep, and for greater purity, she brought him forth from one of her sides. In Chinese popular religion, the virgin mother Shing-Mon gave birth to the God Yu from a conception by a water lily. The procreative refinement evinced here is equal to that of Juno. In another story Yu was conceived of a star!

Let's check into resurrection now...

In ancient Greek religion a number of dead mortal men and women were made physically immortal as they were resurrected from the dead. Asclepius, was killed by Zeus only to be resurrected and transformed into a major deity. Achilles after being killed was snatched from his funeral pyre by his divine mother Thetis and resurrected brought to an immortal existence in either Leuce, Elysian plains or the Islands of the Blessed. Memnon, who was killed by Achlles, seems to have a received a similar fate. Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes, were also among the figures sometimes considered to have been resurrected to physical immortality. According to Herodotus' Histories, the seventh century B.C. sage Aristeas of Proconnesus was first found dead, after which his body disappeared from a locked room. Later he found not only to have been resurrected but to have gained immortality."

The same stories are repeated over and over again on every continent.

Here's Asia...
"
There are stories in Buddhism where the power of resurrection was demonstrated on at least two famous occasions in Chan or Zen Buddhist tradition. One is the famous resurrection story of Bodhidharma, the Indian master who brought the Ekayana school of India to China that subsequently became Chan Buddhism.

The other is the passing of Chinese Chan master Puhua (J., Fuke) and is recounted in the Record of Linji (J., Rinzai). Puhua was known for his unusual or crazy-like behavior and teaching style so it is no wonder that he is associated with an event that breaks the usual prohibition on displaying such powers."


It took me 10 minutes on Google to find examples...i know that the "great flood" is a common one too.
So how does all of this undermine the veracity of Christianity? It doesn't. It would be like me asking you your name and you say "My name is John Doe." And I say, "You can't possibly John Doe; over the past year I've met 10 John Does, so you can't possibly be John Doe." The existence of imposters doesn’t undermine the possibility that there could be a real John Doe. That fact is determined by different information and not by counting the heads of the impostors. In the same way, those other myths are unrelated to the question of whether Jesus’ story is true. Those myths are only valuable if you first determine that Jesus is a fiction by looking at the primary source historical documentation. If you look at the historical record and decide that it is unreliable, if you first conclude that there is no good reason to believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed the way the Biblical records say He did, then it might then, and only then be useful to ask the question: How did this story come to be? If it turns out, based on the historical information, Jesus’ story is false, then it becomes interesting to ask where such a story come from if it isn’t rooted in history. But you only do that work, the explaining how the fiction came to be, after you can demonstrate by separate evidence the story is a fiction to begin with.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 08:16 AM   #62
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This thread is making way too much out of the issue. And I feel ashamed for creating this monster. Oh Lord, Oh Xenu, Oh Buddha, Oh Dirtclump, I repent!
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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:36 AM   #63
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So how does all of this undermine the veracity of Christianity? It doesn't. It would be like me asking you your name and you say "My name is John Doe." And I say, "You can't possibly John Doe; over the past year I've met 10 John Does, so you can't possibly be John Doe." The existence of imposters doesn’t undermine the possibility that there could be a real John Doe. That fact is determined by different information and not by counting the heads of the impostors. In the same way, those other myths are unrelated to the question of whether Jesus’ story is true. Those myths are only valuable if you first determine that Jesus is a fiction by looking at the primary source historical documentation. If you look at the historical record and decide that it is unreliable, if you first conclude that there is no good reason to believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed the way the Biblical records say He did, then it might then, and only then be useful to ask the question: How did this story come to be? If it turns out, based on the historical information, Jesus’ story is false, then it becomes interesting to ask where such a story come from if it isn’t rooted in history. But you only do that work, the explaining how the fiction came to be, after you can demonstrate by separate evidence the story is a fiction to begin with.
No where in your argument there is any evidence that Jesus as mentioned in bible was real. Yes, there might have been a real Jesus, a great man, a preacher and someone just made up all the "old" stories around him to make him look more. There is no historical information regarding him being in anyway related to God or being of virgin birth or any miracle he ever performed. It's funny that you easily call other "virgins births" fake and Jesus's the real deal. Ah the blind faith.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:47 AM   #64
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I'm just calling your bluff on the evidence part. And as proof that I was successful, I've already caught you demanding that God do something over and above what he did in the Bible.
Whatever. Bible is a fairy tale. There is no relationship between creator of universe (if there is one) and Bible. I can entertain the idea of a creator(s), I just don't wanna buy this nonsense that Bible is talking about the same being(s).
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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:51 AM   #65
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Empirical "truth" is not the only truth that exists; it is not the only way of knowing. That's the problem when you talk about "proof" with atheists and agnostics who exalt materialism above all else.
What a Joke. If anything, "believers" are the most "materialistic" people I have ever seen. Quoting the nutjob congressman from SC , YOU LIE. Christianity and money go hand in hand in America. So stop making things up. Try this nonsense amongst your like minded buddies.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:52 AM   #66
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Umm, that's not what he is doing. The fantastical acts in the Bible are nothing more than claptrap. The Bible cannot offer proof for anything. That's like saying Middle Earth exists because it written in the Hobbit. Nope. That defense is DOA.
One of my brainwashed friends.....always tells me that the evidence is the bible....he claims it was written by the devine....that's all the evidence he needs........... The devine? Please show me one shread of evidence that is true!

Proof is what I seek! Real scientific proof....not fantasy
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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:56 AM   #67
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Now, here we have another interesting comment: 'the Bible can't offer proof of anything.' There are so many problems with this brassy assertion that it's hard to know where to begin. For starters, the Bible is an inanimate object. Were you expecting it to fall out of Heave, land on your face and wiggle ?

And then there is the well-worn (and decidedly stock) accusation that Jesus was ripped-off from other deities. Wonder if anyone besides me noticed that you offered not one shred of proof for this ballsy declaration ?
My question to you would be: why bible? Why not Koran? Pray tell. One fairy tale is as good as another one for me. Jumping from actual creator of universe to Bible is a pretty giant leap and Christians take that jump as if that's the most obvious thing to do. So again, why Bible? Why not all jump to Koran?
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Old January 21st, 2010, 10:01 AM   #68
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is it me or are my fellow atheists in this thread as much (if not more) judgmental and jaded as the religion they bash?
You do get jaded pretty soon if you are given the same 2000 year old book as sole evidence for existence of divinity for as long as one can remember.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 10:07 AM   #69
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My question to you would be: why bible? Why not Koran? Pray tell. One fairy tale is as good as another one for me. Jumping from actual creator of universe to Bible is a pretty giant leap and Christians take that jump as if that's the most obvious thing to do. So again, why Bible? Why not all jump to Koran?
Because the Koran is written by people....the bible on the other hand....was written by the devine!
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Old January 21st, 2010, 03:04 PM   #70
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Krazee, you and Dale asked for examples of fables that predated Christianity but are passed off as Christian. That's what I provided. Each of these "gods" predate Jesus. In my view the story of Jesus is no less /no more valid than any other in the history of religion. For example, I don't think scientologists or Mormons are any more crazy than Christians. I'm just as uncomfortable being represented in government by people that believe in Jesus as you may be being represented by someone who believes in alien abduction. At the end of the day, how people find comfort is their business. If it was kept out of politics I'd be able to better enjoy the beautiful structures worldwide that religions have provided (I wont be able to enjoy minarets in Switzerland thanks to the Christians there but that's another topic).

Last edited by spencer114; January 21st, 2010 at 03:11 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 03:43 PM   #71
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God, you can't even speak correctly. It's s-h-e-e-p (singular). And I'll bet that you fit the bill. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and assume that what you believe about the Bible is based on authority. In other words, someone else told you what to believe and you don't have the resources to question it.
Ohh, you stupid guy ! I think my english is better than your german !
Nobody can tell me what I should believe. In fact I don`t believe in anything.
What I said is my experience. I know that it is God in me who beats my heart.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 03:57 PM   #72
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Maybe it's b/c I was raised in a non-religious household that I couldn't care less either way. I'm not religious, but I'm not hostile towards it either, like some people. If you practice your religion peacefully, I really couldn't care less. If we were completely rid of religious people, society would be fragmented in other ways; it's not like we're all going to agree on what's right/wrong, legal/illegal, etc.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 06:46 PM   #73
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Examples of spiritial rip offs?

Here's the myth of immaculate conception for starters...


Osiris of Egypt and even Julius Caesar were immaculately conceived—the" latter being the son of the beautiful virgin Cronis Celestine, and begotten by the Father of all Gods, Jupiter. His heir and nephew, Augustus Caesar, was curiously his half brother, as another son of Jove, by whose divine lust he was immaculately conceived in the temple of Apollo.

Both Buddha and Chrishna, of India, were immaculately conceived. The mother of Chrishna was overshadowed by the supreme God, Brahma, and the Holy Ghost was Naraan. Chrishna's mother had given birth seven times previously but remained a virgin. Philostratus, a disciple of Apollonius of Cappadocia, who was contemporary with Jesus Christ , tells that Damis, the mother of Apollonius, gave birth to this god and rival saviour of Jesus Christ, by being overshadowed by the god, Proteus.



Not only saviours but famous men, like Plato, Pythagoras, Alexander, Augustus and others, were thought to have been born miraculously. Plato was born of Paretonia, begotten of Apollo, not Ariston, his father, according to one authority.

The doctrine of immaculate conception is ancient but the manner of the holy conception was different in different countries. Zoroaster was immaculately conceived by a ray from the Divine Reason or Word and this was adopted by medieval artists.

But the idea of being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost seems to have been most current. God, the father of a god was believed to overshadow the mother of a god, to impregnate her. In 550 BC, Pythais, the mother of Pythagoras, conceived by a spectre or ghost of the god Apollo, the Sun-god.

Answer for yourself: Does the ghost of the sun god differ in principle from the Christian Holy Ghost?.

Juno of Rome grew pregnant at the touch of a flower to give birth to Mars. No impregnation could have been purer. So the most immaculate conception of all was that of the god of War! If it sounds absurd, how is it more senseless than conception by a ghost? Botany has shown that, at least, a flower can fertilize other flowers but no science has yet investigated the virility of ghosts.

The Greek Juno, Hera, was immaculately impregnated by the wind to give birth to Vulcan. Here is a close parallel indeed for the word habitually translated as spirit or ghost in the scriptures and continued into the Greek of the New Testament really means breath or wind! So literally the virgin Mary was impregnated by the wind just like Hera. The author of the Perennial Calendar tells us the miraculous conception of Juno Jugulis, the blessed virgin queen of heaven, fell on the second of February, the day of the early Christian festival of the date of the conception of the ever Blessed Virgin Mary.

A Chinese sect worshiped a saviour known as Xaca, who was conceived of his mother, Maia, by a white elephant, which she saw in her sleep, and for greater purity, she brought him forth from one of her sides. In Chinese popular religion, the virgin mother Shing-Mon gave birth to the God Yu from a conception by a water lily. The procreative refinement evinced here is equal to that of Juno. In another story Yu was conceived of a star!

Let's check into resurrection now...

In ancient Greek religion a number of dead mortal men and women were made physically immortal as they were resurrected from the dead. Asclepius, was killed by Zeus only to be resurrected and transformed into a major deity. Achilles after being killed was snatched from his funeral pyre by his divine mother Thetis and resurrected brought to an immortal existence in either Leuce, Elysian plains or the Islands of the Blessed. Memnon, who was killed by Achlles, seems to have a received a similar fate. Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes, were also among the figures sometimes considered to have been resurrected to physical immortality. According to Herodotus' Histories, the seventh century B.C. sage Aristeas of Proconnesus was first found dead, after which his body disappeared from a locked room. Later he found not only to have been resurrected but to have gained immortality."

The same stories are repeated over and over again on every continent.

Here's Asia...
"
There are stories in Buddhism where the power of resurrection was demonstrated on at least two famous occasions in Chan or Zen Buddhist tradition. One is the famous resurrection story of Bodhidharma, the Indian master who brought the Ekayana school of India to China that subsequently became Chan Buddhism.

The other is the passing of Chinese Chan master Puhua (J., Fuke) and is recounted in the Record of Linji (J., Rinzai). Puhua was known for his unusual or crazy-like behavior and teaching style so it is no wonder that he is associated with an event that breaks the usual prohibition on displaying such powers."


It took me 10 minutes on Google to find examples...i know that the "great flood" is a common one too.
The atheist website which you pulled this from failed to mention that most of the alledged 'striking parallels' between Osiris (and others) and Jesus appear in literature that POST-DATES the Gospels. So, the shoe is on the other foot!
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Old January 21st, 2010, 06:48 PM   #74
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Because the Koran is written by people....the bible on the other hand....was written by the devine!
Why should we pay any heed to your rantings when you can't even spell ?
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Old January 21st, 2010, 06:50 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by chuck_nbc View Post
My question to you would be: why bible? Why not Koran? Pray tell. One fairy tale is as good as another one for me. Jumping from actual creator of universe to Bible is a pretty giant leap and Christians take that jump as if that's the most obvious thing to do. So again, why Bible? Why not all jump to Koran?
You see ? This is why I don't do rope-a-dope apologetics anymore. The atheist doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt because as soon as one argument is addressed ... he's off and running to the next argument. In his evasion, he never seems to punch himself out.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 06:52 PM   #76
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Ohh, you stupid guy ! I think my english is better than your german !
Nobody can tell me what I should believe. In fact I don`t believe in anything.
What I said is my experience. I know that it is God in me who beats my heart.
What do you mean you don't believe in anything ? You've just confessed to me that you believe that God is in you. You're a religious nutter!
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Old January 21st, 2010, 07:06 PM   #77
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NOVA, I agree for the most part.

That said, I have yet to see religion practiced peacefully. From Christians fed to lions to the Crusades. From the Spanish Inquisition to Auschwitz , from Sarajevo to Gaza, from Loving vs. the Commonwealth of Virginia to Belfast, OKC to Ground Zero. At what point are we supposed to care about religion's role in the world?

The South has a terrible record of oppression, for which (oftentimes) scripture was sited in order to justify. I don’t truly believe that as individuals, religious people in the South (or anywhere) are bad people. It’s the collective whole that scares me. Where is the incentive to right wrongs in society when it is all in God’s hands? How can you plan for future generations when you honestly believe that end times are near? How can you hope for peace in the Middle East while hoping for a war that will hasten Armageddon? How do you pick and chose scientific methods? God doesn’t want stem cell research but it is OK to go against his will and do stuff like take chemo, dye one’s hair, augment ones breasts, add fluoride to the dinking water, grow food without natural light, swap out a good kidney for a bad one etc…
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Old January 21st, 2010, 07:07 PM   #78
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NOVA, I agree for the most part.

That said, I have yet to see religion practiced peacefully. From Christians fed to lions to the Crusades. From the Spanish Inquisition to Auschwitz , from Sarajevo to Gaza, from Loving vs. the Commonwealth of Virginia to Belfast, OKC to Ground Zero. At what point are we supposed to care about religion's role in the world?

The South has a terrible record of oppression, for which (oftentimes) scripture was sited in order to justify. I don’t truly believe that as individuals religious people in the South (or anywhere) are bad people. It’s the collective whole that scares me. Where is the incentive to right wrongs in society when it is all in God’s hands? How can you plan for future generations when you honestly believe that end times are near? How can you hope for peace in the Middle East while hoping for a war that will hasten Armageddon? How do you pick and chose scientific methods? God doesn’t want stem cell research but it is OK to go against his will and do stuff like take chemo, dye one’s hair, augment ones breasts, add fluoride to the dinking water, grow food without natural light, swap out a good kidney for a bad one etc…
Word to the wise: an atheist does not want to get into a numbers game with religionists regarding oppression and killing.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 07:19 PM   #79
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The atheist website which you pulled this from failed to mention that most of the alleged 'striking parallels' between Osiris (and others) and Jesus appear in literature that POST-DATES the Gospels. So, the shoe is on the other foot!
Most of the literature written about Jesus has been post scripture too. Actually the website where I got most of that stuff is published by a Christian group that wants to separate out the sensational accounts from the Bible in order to give more credence to the parts that they believe are closer to God‘s word.

Kind of like what Thomas Jefferson did. He wrote his own bible leaving out all of the dramatic special effects, keeping only what he believed were the important parts (charity, humility, fairness, taking care of one's neighbor etc.).
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Old January 21st, 2010, 07:23 PM   #80
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Most of the literature written about Jesus has been post scripture too. Actually the website where I got most of that stuff is published by a Christian group that wants to separate out the sensational accounts from the Bible in order to give more credence to the parts that they believe are closer to God‘s word.

Kind of like what Thomas Jefferson did. He wrote his own bible leaving out all of the dramatic special effects, keeping only what he believed were the important parts (charity, humility, fairness, taking care of one's neighbor etc.).
Ah, but none of the stuff that has been written about Jesus post-Gospels is in the Gospels. However, most of the aledged 'striking parallels' between Jesus and various mythic deities was written post-Gospels.

The Osiris that you have in mind is a Jesus-ripoff!
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