Indian Mass Rapid Transit Systems - Info | New Proposals | Financial Models | Fantasy Maps

[abhishekifmr]

Originally Posted by Indiadreams

Disclaimer: This is a generic comment and not specific to DMRC.

India has seen this so called social service in many areas by the public agencies. There is enough proof to show that the private agencies which yearn for high IRR are far better than public agencies which do so-called social services.

Also, the performance of public agencies is not consistent and changes with the head of the organisation ad the politician who drives it. IR and AI were prestigious organisations once. On other hand,private agencies are consistent in their performance irrespective of the person driving it.

Check the quality of NHAI roads before and after PPP, quality of service in airports and ports. And yes Chennai and Kolkata airports are going to collect more user charges than Mumbai airport.

And again there will not be any conflicts if a part of the system is PPP,as the roles and responsibilities will be clearly defined. This has been happening very well in port and road sector. And, it is going to happen in metro systems in Mumbai and Gurgaon as of now.

See again i admit your points are valid but we need to have a social aspect as well. The cost of modernization done by private sector comes from users only. The cost of delhi airport modernisation increased from 5900 cr to 12500 cr and for compensating this DIAL increased ADF and UDF. Same with the toll roads. For ex. Mumbai Pune expressway was originally supposed to recover 900 cr in 19 years which they recovered in 7 years by reducing expenses (no maintenance is one example). Almost 1 fatal accident is norm on the expressway.
BTW Mumbai metro is purely PPP so no conflicts and in Gurgaon since it is close loop revenue sharing is easy. Think the problems if ORR line is on PPP (Revenue sharing, responsibilities, etc). I am not against PPP but it should be either PPP or totally Govt Funded else we can see failure like Airport express.

[holaindia]

Originally Posted by philebus

LOL. It is unpersuasive to claim, "India is the "only" one who took to democracy in..."

Can you provide any verifiable evidence to the claim, Japan or USA, European countries, Canada, Australia etc. have not been a democracy for the last 60+ years? or during the period when they actually built modern metro and vast infrastructure projects?

Of course, there are unusual cases. For example, China's rapid infrastructure roll out in recent years, South Korea between 1960-1975, etc.

But, why fester on irrelevant political examples and time periods that do not apply to India? why not consider relevant political examples and more recent 30 year periods from democratic countries where democracy has enabled major infrastructure build out? Why not consider Delhi metro success and ask "how is this possible in one part of democratic India, and not another?"

Of course, poverty removal is important. Poverty removal is more lasting when the poor is empowered with infrastructure, skills, job opportunities than dependency-inducing hand-outs.

Give the poor a fish, you feed his family for a day; teach him how to fish, you feed his family for a lifetime; teach him how to fish and empower him with infrastructure such as boats, efficient roads, and rewarding markets, you empower him to feed his town and feed/clothe/educate his family.

Australia, Canada, US have been democracies for more than 100-150 years. The point should be , Did they face any challenges ? They had small populations and development took place over two centuries. Can we wait for so much time ? And anyway these countries were also not great democracies and restricted rights to slaves who were common in these countries during the initial years. European countries were monarchies and even their infrastructure was built over two to three centuries. Japan's rapid development can be attributed to the fact that they were a highly disciplined group with high amount of nationalism. This was obviously due to Imperial Japan's military like approach which focused a lot on discipline.


Anyway the point I want to make is that we have not lost time and we can build infrastructure at a rapid pace if we want to even now. Challenges are immense but we can start by building world class infrastructure for cities and then moving towards getting rural population to urban settings.

[Bombay2Calcutta]

Sky Bus Metro project needs funds of Rs 1000 crore
Murari Shetye, TNN | Apr 11, 2013, 07.28 PM IST

PANAJI: Konkan Railway Corporation Limited (KRCL) needs Rs 1000 crore for taking sky bus metro project ahead as KRCL has accumulated loss of Rs 3310 crores and bond liability of Rs 1666 crores and cannot go ahead with the project.

Goa state transport minister Ramkrishna 'Sudin' Dhavlikar said that commercial deployment of sky bus technology can be undertaken only after the optimization of the technology and its safety certification for public usage. "Being a research oriented project no time frame can be given at present (for commercial deployment)," He added.

KRCK has constructed a sky bus test track of 1.6km at Madgaon on which tests and trials up to speed of 60kmph conducted.

The project is a technology development oriented project and such projects have its own gestation period and required adequate finance, which is not available with KRCL, said Sudin.

[whatever123]

Originally Posted by abhishekifmr

See again i admit your points are valid but we need to have a social aspect as well. The cost of modernization done by private sector comes from users only. The cost of delhi airport modernisation increased from 5900 cr to 12500 cr and for compensating this DIAL increased ADF and UDF. Same with the toll roads. For ex. Mumbai Pune expressway was originally supposed to recover 900 cr in 19 years which they recovered in 7 years by reducing expenses (no maintenance is one example). Almost 1 fatal accident is norm on the expressway.
BTW Mumbai metro is purely PPP so no conflicts and in Gurgaon since it is close loop revenue sharing is easy. Think the problems if ORR line is on PPP (Revenue sharing, responsibilities, etc). I am not against PPP but it should be either PPP or totally Govt Funded else we can see failure like Airport express.

Yes it will be taken from users - that is much fairer than taxing a farmer who has never seen the interioir of an aero place to fund an airport. We can ensure that the contractor takes care of maintainence through govt regulation - just because we privatize does not mean we have to be at the mercy of them.

[whatever123]

Originally Posted by philebus

LOL. It is unpersuasive to claim, "India is the "only" one who took to democracy in..."

Can you provide any verifiable evidence to the claim, Japan or USA, European countries, Canada, Australia etc. have not been a democracy for the last 60+ years? or during the period when they actually built modern metro and vast infrastructure projects?

Of course, there are unusual cases. For example, China's rapid infrastructure roll out in recent years, South Korea between 1960-1975, etc.

But, why fester on irrelevant political examples and time periods that do not apply to India? why not consider relevant political examples and more recent 30 year periods from democratic countries where democracy has enabled major infrastructure build out? Why not consider Delhi metro success and ask "how is this possible in one part of democratic India, and not another?"

Of course, poverty removal is important. Poverty removal is more lasting when the poor is empowered with infrastructure, skills, job opportunities than dependency-inducing hand-outs.

Give the poor a fish, you feed his family for a day; teach him how to fish, you feed his family for a lifetime; teach him how to fish and empower him with infrastructure such as boats, efficient roads, and rewarding markets, you empower him to feed his town and feed/clothe/educate his family.

Agree. It is not democracy that is problem it is the lack of respect to free markets. And the lack of belief in Indian government that they can regulate a free market well. And lack of belief in Indian government that Indian people will act in an economically rational way if left to free markets instead of favoring their caste people at every step even at the cost of profit.

[philebus]

Originally Posted by holaindia

Australia, Canada, US have been democracies for more than 100-150 years. The point should be , Did they face any challenges ? They had small populations and development took place over two centuries.[...]

Japan, US, Canada, Australia etc do not have metros or equivalent infrastructure investments in very low population density regions. They exist in major densely populated metropolitan regions of our world. Calling some countries imperial etc is looking through a one way distorted mirror; the whole world was different before the WW2.

These speculative stereotyping theories, "obviously due to Imperial Japan's military like approach which..." etc do not reflect the realities of post-WW2 Japan. I have immense respect for post-WW2 Japan and Japanese people.

FWIW, the highway and expressway network build out in the US, Japan, Europe started many years after WW2 ended and after India got its independence. It is in the last 60 years, in democratic countries, in densely populated regions of these democratic countries, that many of most interesting metros / high speed rails / rural road network / skyscrapers / housing projects / etc have been started and successfully completed.

If anything, many of these countries have been more democratic than India in their infrastructure projects. Unlike India, in many countries, city residents or regional populations or citizens of a state vote directly to authorize major infrastructure projects and in some cases, taxes or tax exemption or bond financing for those projects. See this or this or this or this, for example. India lacks similar referendum/ballot based public infrastructure decision making process; perhaps, India should consider this form of direct democracy; it would provide people a means to not only approve funding, but give them a direct yes or no voice in infrastructure important to them. Such direct democracy and majority approval often makes land acquisition and other necessary public legal actions much easier.

Anyway the point I want to make is that we have not lost time and we can build infrastructure at a rapid pace if we want to even now. Challenges are immense but we can start by building world class infrastructure for cities and then moving towards getting rural population to urban settings.

Agreed.

[Indiadreams]

Originally Posted by abhishekifmr

See again i admit your points are valid but we need to have a social aspect as well. The cost of modernization done by private sector comes from users only. The cost of delhi airport modernisation increased from 5900 cr to 12500 cr and for compensating this DIAL increased ADF and UDF. Same with the toll roads. For ex. Mumbai Pune expressway was originally supposed to recover 900 cr in 19 years which they recovered in 7 years by reducing expenses (no maintenance is one example). Almost 1 fatal accident is norm on the expressway.
BTW Mumbai metro is purely PPP so no conflicts and in Gurgaon since it is close loop revenue sharing is easy. Think the problems if ORR line is on PPP (Revenue sharing, responsibilities, etc). I am not against PPP but it should be either PPP or totally Govt Funded else we can see failure like Airport express.

whatever123 answered the first point very well. In fact after PPP, even the Govt projects started collecting user charges and toll. Check the user charges in Chennai and Kolkata airport built by AAi and the roads in Mumbai (BWSL, Aarey, MPE etc) and Delhi.

Only Line1 is PPP in Mumbai. It has to integrate with other lines. And the concession agreement lists all the conditions for smooth integration. Let alone other metro lines, the concession agreement talks about integration with Indian Railways and buses atleast in case of Mumbai, which is known for excellent integration of different transport modes.

Gurgaon has to integrate with other lines within Gurgaon and the lines bulilt by DMRC in Gurgaon. IWthout common ticketing between DMRC and RMRG ad smooth transfers, it will be a hell to transfer between systems. And if you dont know, the integration is already happening. The closed loop has to open in subsequent phases in Gurgaon

[rsrikanth05]

Originally Posted by philebus

Japan International Cooperation Agency has funded a significant part of Delhi Metro Phase 1, 2 and 3. See here.

While some projects worldwide do need public financing or guarantees, many don't. India has successfully used PPP for several projects; India can and should consider engaging global financial markets, various development banks, international cooperation partnerships with countries like Japan/US/UK/etc, and other creative non-taxpayer options to build mass transit systems and numerous other core infrastructure projects.

Several is an understatement.
A vast majority of National Highways are built on PPP.
You have electricity distribution, generation, ports, railways and two Major Metro projects built on PPP.
You also have Public Toilets built on PPP.