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Old September 7th, 2017, 11:25 PM   #161
sotavento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
High-speed services are built to connect the metropolises and not the towns. Serving towns along the route is a secondary by-product. This, however, doesn't mean that all kinds of towns get a direct high-speed access.
There is only one (1) metropolis in most countries that have HSR or even none ... go figure.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 12:06 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
If India doesn't have a lot of cross boarder traffic then I really don't see any reason they would change gauge. It's a much much larger network than Spain, and I think interconnectivity within the country is important. So it's easier to just build HSR to the existing gauge, especially since there is not speed concerns.
Nederlands-Germany-Austria-...-Turkey-Iran-Af/Pakistan-India-Bangladesh-India-Myanmar-Thailand and from there east to Laos/Vietnam/China and south to Malaysia and Singapore.

The Roterdam-Germany , bosphorus tunnel and the Shangai-Guangzou-Hanoi route are all part of this projected corridor.

When completed there will be 3 different gauges involved:
iran 1435mm pakistan 1676mm
india 1676mm mianmar 1000mm
Mianmar/vietnam 1000mm China 1435mm

Since there are a lot of gaps they want to bring it to the next level and this means an mixed traffic corridor and thus the idea of building the HSL across india/ganges in 1435mm ... they already testet tilting TALGO trains there and Turkey has CAF trains (qich in spain have gauge changing wheelsets).

PAKISTAN - 210 million
"NW" ~80 million in small Indian states (+50 million in Afghani/Tajik/Kirgi-stans)
"Rajastan" 70 million state
Dehli 16 million city (more than 50 million in suburbia ?)
"Uttar pradesh" 200 million state (never mind the existance of dozens of 3+ million cities there) <<< the size of the UK
Patna 2 million (other 13 cities over 100.000 in a 105 million state)
Ranchi 1 million (33 million state)
"West Bengal" 90+ million state
BANGLADESH ~160 million country

Over 1000 million (aka 1 billion in US numbers) in a little over the distance of the Paris-Berlin-Moscow direct route ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; September 8th, 2017 at 12:46 AM.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 12:51 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
Checked the price for Mumbai - Ahmadabad flight ticket. Booking one week before journey costs me 3800 for return ticket. Now with high speed train it will cost me 2800 + 2800 = 5600. Why the hell will I pay 50% more for high speed rail than plane. India has the cheapest airline service in world. We do not need high speed rail. Reality is high speed rail is expensive compared to planes. China has high speed rail but it is subsidized by government. China rail has debt of USD 500 billion. Wait for some days & see China rail get bankrupt. US does not have high speed rail. This is not because they do not have money or technology. This is because they take commercial decision & high speed railway does not make commercial sense.

Now lets take a look at economics of high speed rail. It will cost 60000 crores to construct high speed rail between Mumbai & Ahmadabad. You need to get 10% return to pay debt so you need to earn 6000 crores per year just to pay interest. 6000 crores is more than profit of entire airline industry in India. That you need to earn just from single route. For capital budget of 60,000 crores you can buy 100 airbus 320. This is more than fleet size of Indigo Airlines, the largest in India. Now return ticket will cost 6000 as per their estimate. So to recover 6000 crores to pay for interest cost on 60000 crores you need to sell 1 crore tickets every year. That is more than twice the population of Ahmadabad and I am not even considering the operating cost. All airlines together sell 60 lakhs tickets in India every year and you need to sell 1 crores tickets just on Mumbai Ahmadabad route to pay interest cost.

Then there are operational difficulties in constructing high speed rail line. Where is the land in Mumbai to build high speed rail line. You need to build railway station at Vasai. Who will travel to Vasai to take a high speed rail. Then there is politics. Every MLA will want train to stop in his constituency. In the article it is mentioned that they will have 10 stations between Mumbai & Ahmadabad. So a stop every 50 km. High speed rail will not be able to accelerate to its full speed and we have a stop.

We need to invest on existing railway network to improve its efficiency. Build more double tracks and complete electrification project. If we increase average speed of system to 100 kmph it is more than enough. Foreign governments will try to sell high speed rail to India as they get revenues. But our imports will increase. If any foreign government is too keen, let them build and operate the high speed rail without any financial liability on our government. We must only provide land. I am sure in such a scenario no one will invest. They just want Indian government to take financial burden so that they can sell their technology.
A 10 stop HSR costs roughly the same as a 5 airport network costs to BUILD ... operational costs of HSR are always considering the prior inexistance of a railway ... airline operational costs is always considering the MEGA HUB is already paid for by someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
I too see no convincing reason to set up HSR on its own gauge.
Yes, the initial purchase of rolling stock would be slightly cheaper and tunnels could be smaller in diameter. But does that really outweigh the fact that it would make HSR forever unable to be linked to any existing system?

Also, from the viewpoint of an Indian industry orientated politician, is it really that desirable, to make your country ideal for foreign cooperations to sell to you?
Given the size of India and the potential of the market, surely you would want to build and produce native HSR in the long term (just like the Chinese did).
So keeping a certain 'entry barrier' up could help domestic solutions.

India like Spain had already a DUAL GAUGE network since both have BROAD (1676mm/1672mm) and NARROW (1000mm) and both were/Are technically obsolete infraestructure in dire need of repairs to see another 100/200 years of service so it doesn't matter what gauge your build the routes in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
High speed rail costs USD 50 million - 100 million per kilometer. For this you can buy one airbus 320. A 20000 kms network to cover India will cost atleast USD 2 trillion. Thats more than GDP of India. Reality is that planes are cheaper than high speed rail.
HSR cost THE SAME as A SINGLE LANE of a new road and the SAME AS a urban light rail. The only cost difference is in the price tag of the materials involved ... most portuguese/spanish sections or HSR cost as much as 10/15 million € per km ... and this is because a lot of it is spent in bridges and tunnels ... surface/straight track costas as much as 2/5 million €.
If you apply this to INDIA with much more lower manpower and material costs it would be much cheaper to build there than here.
On the other hand ... costs in china are much higher because of the enormous viaducts ...

In india the Mumbai T2 alone costed as much as the entire project of a 200km HSR ... and it was a simple terminal.
$1,5 billion for a runway or a terminal is the usual LOWER price tag ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

Last edited by sotavento; September 8th, 2017 at 02:42 AM.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 12:56 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
We can have a far bigger multiplier effect by improving our existing railway network.
No you can't ... you are in the predatory-religious-bancrupcy treshold as you aproach the 160km/h service speed ... anything over that and you NEED to build completelly new tracks or completelly segregate the existing ones if you want to put them at above 160km/h speeds (thus the cost is the same as a new HSR).

If you bring the major Indian Rail corridors to european/chinese/japanese HSR standards (even if as low as 200km/h) you can quadruple the passengers and reduce travel time to 1/3rd just by putting them into 16/24 car EMU's with good aceleration (CRH/Shinkansen stile).


Indian concept of a "fast" train passing withou stopping at a station:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oDdH3DxZEU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9YT5uZKroI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt_keu-hvlo

Shinkansen passing thru a station as slow speeds (240/250):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4AvGzCVgvI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsoIxVVYXlw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmqnR03R0fU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfkV8-tB3c


Conventional trains in Austria (at up to 230km/h)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4oj7jukVbM

Fast/Sluggish HSR in Europe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gREgGGVcR1I
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

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Last edited by sotavento; September 8th, 2017 at 02:29 AM.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 01:03 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhitej View Post
Developing aviation sector is also advancement in infrastructure. You are saying that investment in High Speed Rail is advancement but investment in airports/planes is not which is a wrong argument. I am just objectively comparing planes & high speed rail. Planes have lots of advantages over high speed rail. Just because China built a high speed network does not mean everyone should.
A 24 car standard indian EMU would carry 2880 passengers in dense seating ... or some +5000 if double deckers were used
Given a headway of 4 minutes between each train
we get around 1.7 million daily passengers or around 630 million yearly passengers in a single route ... some examples:


NewDehli to Lucknow (only one single section of the MAIN HSR route):

Dehli-(Meerut)-Moradabad-Bareilly-Shahjahanpur-(Sitapur/Hardoi)-Lucknow ~540km (~50+(3.4)+4.7+4.4+3+4.4+4.4+4.7 million)
TODAY DD = 8h50
TODAY Express = 8h
at 100km/h = 5h24
at 120km/h = 4h30
at 160km/h = 3h20
at 200km/h = 2h40
at 250km/h = 2h10
at 300km/h = 1h50
at 350km/h = 1h30

Dehli-Moradabad ~160km (~50+4.7)
Dehli-Meerut-Moradabad ~180km (~50+3.4+4.7)

Moradabad-Bareilly-Shahjahanpur ~170km (4.7+4.4+3 million)

Shahjahanpur-Sitapur-Lucknow ~120km (3+4.4+4.7 million)
Shahjahanpur-Hardoi-Lucknow ~110km (3+4+4.7 million)

This is just one section of the possible Dehli-Kolkata route ... you can go to Lucknow via Agra and duplicate these results.

Dehli-Lucknow ~540km (49€ by plane 20x day)
Lucknow-Patna ~540km (55€ by plane 3x day)
Patna-Kolkata ~580km (68€ by plane 4x day)

Random pick => shinkansen timetables:
- 17 stations in roughly the same 515km
- japan has HALF the population of this area of india
- N700 travel at 300km/h and can carry 1323pax(16car) or 546pax(8car)
Nozomi = direct rapid = 188tpd 2h22 (112 /60% continue east, 90 all the way to hakata)
Hikari = rapid = 64tpd (aditional stops may vary, only 3 leftout)
Kodama = Stopping = 83tpd (30tpd Tokyo-osaka , 33 tokyo-nagoya,other 20tpd)
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça

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Last edited by sotavento; September 8th, 2017 at 01:51 AM.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 05:19 AM   #166
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Most of the opposition to this project comes from the left who are butthurt our countries ancient railway system is finally upgrading. China started building theirs when they were even poorer. and now they are reaping the benefits. Hopefully the HSR system gets extended all the way to Delhi. The entire rail system there is beyond congested and is impossible to run trains any faster than 200kph on existing tracks.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 03:27 AM   #167
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See these examples:

Zhengzhou

Osaka

Seoul

Kolkata Howrah


[IMG]Kolkata Sealdah[/IMG]
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
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Old September 14th, 2017, 11:02 AM   #168
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India launches first bullet train project

Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has launched work to build India's first high-speed train in Prime Minister Narendra Modi's home state of Gujarat.

Mostly funded by a $17bn (£12.78bn) loan from Japan, the bullet train will run between Ahmedabad city and Mumbai.

When the service starts operating in five years' time, the 500km (310-mile) journey time is expected to be cut to three hours from the current eight.

Mr Abe is making a two-day visit to India, a close ally of Japan.

"My good friend Prime Minister Narendra Modi is a far-sighted leader. He took a decision two years ago to bring high-speed train in India and to create a new India," he said, after laying the foundation stone on Thursday.

"I hope to enjoy the beautiful scenery of India through the windows of the bullet train when I come back here in a few years."

The 750-seat train is scheduled to run from August 2022.

...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-i...ource=facebook
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Old September 14th, 2017, 07:14 PM   #169
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More info here:

Indian high speed rail project launched by Prime Ministers

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...ministers.html
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Old September 15th, 2017, 11:32 AM   #170
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8_As5eVDvg
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Old September 17th, 2017, 11:30 AM   #171
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Interior configuration of trains:

Railway Gazette explains its configuration:
Quote:
Each trainset would have 698 seats for standard class passengers and 55 seats for business class. There would be two wheelchair-accessible toilets and separate facilities for men and women in alternate vehicles. Baby changing facilities are also to be provided.
At Raillynews.com explain it in more detail and photos:
Quote:
The Indian configuration will see lavatories and urinals installed in alternate train cars: lavatories in cars number 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9; urinals in cars number 2, 4, 6 and 8. There will be separate lavatories for men and women.

In Spain, companies such as Adif (infrastructure manager), Ineco (gauge changers engineers), and CAF and Talgo (manufacturers of variable gauge trains) are very pleased that the chosen gauge has been the standard: sooner or later there will be which connect it to the network at 1,676 mm.
More information on the thread: MISC | Railway Gauge Discussion
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