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Old July 6th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjfox View Post
Elon Musk Just Revealed a Major Tesla Model 3 Event Coming Soon

By Mike Brown 9h ago

The wait is almost over. Tesla CEO Elon Musk revealed on his Twitter page Sunday evening that the Model 3 has passed all regulatory requirements “two weeks ahead of schedule,” and the first production car should arrive shortly. To celebrate, Musk has announced possibly the most hotly anticipated event in the Model 3’s journey: the launch party.

The Model 3 is an important moment for Tesla. The entry-level sedan will start at $35,000, far cheaper than the company’s current cheapest car, the $68,000 Model S. The release opens Tesla up to a far wider market, and demand is expected to be high for a vehicle made by a company that, until now, has only made electric vehicles priced at a premium.

https://www.inverse.com/article/3368...-model-3-event
Considering the Model S is already (or was?) the leading model in Norway, I wonder how common the Model 3 will do there.
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Old July 7th, 2017, 03:11 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by womfalcs3 View Post
1.) There are studies that show the amount of CO2 produced in making the batteries that go into these cars offsets the CO2 saved by not burning gasoline. Popular Mechanics recently estimated 2.5 years required to offset the CO2 emissions of a gasoline-powered car: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...udy-fake-news/. Of course, this value can go up or down, depending on the size of the EV and conventional vehicle being displaced, and the amount of driving.

2.) EVs today are impractical since they will rely mostly on fossil fuels indirectly (so they will contribute CO2 emissions themselves). You'll increase the load by charging your EV, which is likely being met by natural gas or coal. You also have the losses incurred in transmission and distribution to contend with.

Once/if your power generation is coming from renewables, then it may make sense (if you displace 2.5 years worth of driving to offset the CO2 produced from the battries' manufacture).
Another day another troll.

1. No such studies exists. The Tesla battery pack is made of several thousand AA rechargeable batteries. The amount of energy required to make a single AA battery is insignificant, and for over 1000 we're talking about burning a few dozen gallons of fuel, but those battery packs will last anywhere from 3 to 6 years. So for that time no fossil fuel energy is used, also breaking them down requires a small amount of energy. So over the lifetime of the pack it will use 10000/1 less energy compared to the length of service it provides.

2. If you convert the actual energy used by a Tesla into gasoline numbers it comes to over 150 miles per gallon, under the most inefficient scenario. So even if all the energy comes from a poorly run fossil fuel plant it is still 10 times more efficient, but if some of that power comes from more modern efficient carbon plants or better yet from renewables than the gap grows exponentially.

You creepy carbon fuel trolls can keep on lying, and lying, and lying, because no one is buying. The only one you are fooling is your own foolish self, since you actually believe you are fooling others with your lies.
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Old July 7th, 2017, 06:43 AM   #383
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Another day another troll.

1. No such studies exists. The Tesla battery pack is made of several thousand AA rechargeable batteries. The amount of energy required to make a single AA battery is insignificant, and for over 1000 we're talking about burning a few dozen gallons of fuel, but those battery packs will last anywhere from 3 to 6 years. So for that time no fossil fuel energy is used, also breaking them down requires a small amount of energy. So over the lifetime of the pack it will use 10000/1 less energy compared to the length of service it provides.

2. If you convert the actual energy used by a Tesla into gasoline numbers it comes to over 150 miles per gallon, under the most inefficient scenario. So even if all the energy comes from a poorly run fossil fuel plant it is still 10 times more efficient, but if some of that power comes from more modern efficient carbon plants or better yet from renewables than the gap grows exponentially.

You creepy carbon fuel trolls can keep on lying, and lying, and lying, because no one is buying. The only one you are fooling is your own foolish self, since you actually believe you are fooling others with your lies.
It's unconstructive to be name-calling. The views I posted are the general consensus among energy economists.
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Old July 8th, 2017, 10:14 PM   #384
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It's unconstructive to be name-calling.
If that's your name, by what other name can I "call" you? A troll is what a troll does. If you don't want to be called one, don't be one.

Quote:
The views I posted are the general consensus among energy economists.
BULLSHIT! That's the problem. People like you only spread bullshit, and then you get mad when you get called out on it.

Quote:
Fossil fuels subsidised by $10m a minute, says IMF

Fossil fuel companies are benefitting from global subsidies of $5.3tn (3.4tn) a year, equivalent to $10m a minute every day, according to a startling new estimate by the International Monetary Fund.

Nicholas Stern, an eminent climate economist at the London School of Economics, said: This very important analysis shatters the myth that fossil fuels are cheap by showing just how huge their real costs are. There is no justification for these enormous subsidies for fossil fuels, which distort markets and damages economies, particularly in poorer countries.

Lord Stern said that even the IMFs vast subsidy figure was a significant underestimate: A more complete estimate of the costs due to climate change would show the implicit subsidies for fossil fuels are much bigger even than this report suggests.


And there is a lot more in the full story at The Guardian
So if you are going to equate renewable to fossil fuels while factoring in the costs of ore deposit extraction, processing, and than break down and clean up, then apply the same criteria to fossil fuel. NONE, that is NONE of "your energy economists" that you mentioned factored the equal cost, from raw ore to total consumption and cost of clean up. Oh wait, but Yes they did for renewable, but No, not for fossil fuel. So how about you add in the cost of land, geologic studies, the drilling, the transport, the refining, the wars as a result of people fighting for control of these fossil fuels, etc. Add ALL the costs, not just the cost "at the pump".

So you see why you are a troll?

Last edited by AnOldBlackMarble; July 8th, 2017 at 10:36 PM.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 12:44 AM   #385
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So if you are going to equate renewable to fossil fuels while factoring in the costs of ore deposit extraction, processing, and than break down and clean up, then apply the same criteria to fossil fuel. NONE, that is NONE of "your energy economists" that you mentioned factored the equal cost, from raw ore to total consumption and cost of clean up. Oh wait, but Yes they did for renewable, but No, not for fossil fuel. So how about you add in the cost of land, geologic studies, the drilling, the transport, the refining, the wars as a result of people fighting for control of these fossil fuels, etc. Add ALL the costs, not just the cost "at the pump".
Uhh... what you are taking about is called a Life Cycle Analysis (LCA), and they are done for fossil fuels all the time:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...64032111001109
https://www.scientificbulletin.upb.r...a/full5321.pdf
http://biodiesel.org/reports/20000707_gen-280.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=Fossil+fuel+LCA
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Old July 9th, 2017, 07:13 AM   #386
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If that's your name, by what other name can I "call" you? A troll is what a troll does. If you don't want to be called one, don't be one.



BULLSHIT! That's the problem. People like you only spread bullshit, and then you get mad when you get called out on it.



So if you are going to equate renewable to fossil fuels while factoring in the costs of ore deposit extraction, processing, and than break down and clean up, then apply the same criteria to fossil fuel. NONE, that is NONE of "your energy economists" that you mentioned factored the equal cost, from raw ore to total consumption and cost of clean up. Oh wait, but Yes they did for renewable, but No, not for fossil fuel. So how about you add in the cost of land, geologic studies, the drilling, the transport, the refining, the wars as a result of people fighting for control of these fossil fuels, etc. Add ALL the costs, not just the cost "at the pump".

So you see why you are a troll?
I'm not talking about their costs. My post brought up whether EVs are really less polluting than gasoline-powered cars. You would have to displace 2.5 years worth of driving just to compensate for the CO2 produced while making the batteries. Then you have to contend with the fact your electricity is likely (in the current state) generated by coal or gas, which would have CO2 emissions to charge your EV.

Environmentally, it only makes sense to buy an EV if:
1.) you're going to drive more than 2.5 years worth of (average) distance, AND
2.) your electricity is generated from renewables. Not coal.

That's aside from local economic circumstances, which I can't generalize. Like where I am, for example, oil is subsidized, but so is electricity.

If you produce electricity on-site or take from the grid using renewables, then all you have to overcome is the 1st point, and it may make environmental sense to you then.

Last edited by womfalcs3; July 9th, 2017 at 07:23 AM.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 01:20 PM   #387
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It also makes environmental sense because you take the pollution exhaust point from the place where millions live to paces outside the cities where there will be much less impact on health. And that is the most revolutionary environmental impact of electric cars. And remember CO2 is the smallest environmental hazard of all - SOx, NOX, CO, heavy metals, ozone, benzene/other toxic carbohydrates, formaldehyde and particulate matter are all much worse.

Remember also about reduction of noise pollution.
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Old July 9th, 2017, 11:57 PM   #388
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First Production Model 3

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/883900030163324930


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Old July 13th, 2017, 01:39 AM   #389
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I haven't looked in detail into this but is the fact that most renewable technologies created today require the use of fossil fuel sources counted in or excluded when citing the total energy consumption in the cycle of renewables?

It should be excluded for an honest comparison. We need to know the actual costs of a pure fossil fuel cycle vs. a pure renewable cycle. I don't know of any renewable source today that does not have a fossil energy process somewhere in the cycle. Counting that as a "penalty" against renewables is dishonest, if it is being done this way, which I don't know if it is. But what I do know is that when most of these guys throw up charts and numbers in support of fossil fuels, they are never honest or accurate, EVER.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 01:56 AM   #390
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Environmentally, it only makes sense to buy an EV if:
1.) you're going to drive more than 2.5 years worth of (average) distance, AND
2.) your electricity is generated from renewables. Not coal.

That's aside from local economic circumstances, which I can't generalize. Like where I am, for example, oil is subsidized, but so is electricity.

If you produce electricity on-site or take from the grid using renewables, then all you have to overcome is the 1st point, and it may make environmental sense to you then.
Exactly, and that's the point. Now stretch that out so it is more honest.

1. Most cars have a lifespan of 10 - 15 years, so it does not matter how long I own it, but rather for how long the car functions. With an average of 7 years per battery pack that's two packs for an average life of a car. So that beats fossil fuels by a mile.

2. And of course we are not there yet, but even the biggest trees on earth start from a tiny seed. We've got to start somewhere. Of course the numbers won't work IMMEDIATELY right off the bat. That's why the measure has to be long term. 50 to 100 years. Accounting for all the cars today, and all that will exist over the next 100 years, if we do NOTHING to change energy sources and only use fossil fuel how much emissions will we produce by 2117? On the other hand if today we start, slowly, step by step, so that in 50 years we transition to an 80% to 90% renewable total cycle, what will the emissions be by 2117? Will they be the same or completely different? Clearly completely different. This is the point of environmentalism. Long term NOT what is happening in July 2017. But for us to get to 2117 we do have to plant the "seed" today.
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Old July 13th, 2017, 08:15 PM   #391
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I haven't looked in detail into this but is the fact that most renewable technologies created today require the use of fossil fuel sources counted in or excluded when citing the total energy consumption in the cycle of renewables?
They count the entire cycle. Everything. For example:
  • Creating a windmill requires, among other things,a certain number of kilograms of steel.
  • Creating a kilogram of steel requires, among other things, a certain fraction of the lifetime of a steel mill.
  • Creating a kilogram of plastic for the wiring of the fuse box in the lunch room of a steel mill requires, among other things, a certain number of kilograms of rubber.
  • Creating a kilogram of rubber requires, among other things, a certain number of kilojoules of energy.
  • Creating a kilojoule of energy requires, among other things, an output of energy from the electricity grid in the area in question.
  • A whole separate analysis is done for the electricity grid (usually calculated on a regional or continent-wide basis), finding the total emissions released per kilojoule of energy output.
Every step of the way hinges on massive databases of previous analyses. An analysis is ran for steel production. Another for a steel mill. Another for rubber. And, as mentioned, one for energy. A good LCA is very thorough, and just running inventories to identify the entire input/output chain of a process or a product is a discipline in itself. Every process to create an output has multiple inputs, every input is the output of another. And associated with the outputs are emissions, which again have impacts. The whole thing is recursive, for instance you will need some steel to make steel, so summing up the whole thing requires quite large matrix operations.



Getting a journalist to understand it all, though, that's where issues usually happen. And there could be some bugs in the calculation programs too, but those tend to be caught before anything is published. Then again, I did read a published analysis once where the author (or rather, the program used by the author) had estimated emissions of some 4,000 tons of Scandium per kilogram of produced polyethylene. The worldwide annual production of Scandium averages around ten tons in total. But usually, professionals tend know what they are doing, and the published figures tend to be as thorough as practically possible. As my LCA teacher said (paraphrased, since this was three years ago): "You can't analyze every step in the interlocking web of processes, and find every single emission. But you can do 97 %. You will miss 3 %, but there's little to be done about that. Half the art of LCA is making sure there's nothing important buried in those 3 %."
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Old July 17th, 2017, 11:44 AM   #392
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https://evobsession.com/electric-car-sales/








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Old July 18th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #393
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I'm a little surpriced Kia Soul ranks lower than the competition, also that i3 get's such good sales.
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Old July 19th, 2017, 03:13 AM   #394
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The electric revolution is full on now.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 01:48 AM   #395
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1. You assume the electricity comes from fossil fuels and the renewables are something that is coming later. Not so at all in many places. Hydro is huge in some parts and has been for decades & decades. Nuclear is also low in CO2. Sure, in Saudi it's all about the oil. But much of the world isn't swimming in oil (or coal), never have been.
Psst. I will tell you a secret. The biggest fossil fuel electricity producent(and the biggest electricity producent as a whole) is coal.

https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/20...fter-coal.html

Also, hydro power has a limit. It is the limit of available rivers and the height gradient on which they flow. Slovakia, where I live, has this limit met 100%. We can not build another hydro power plants. Only on streams and small rivers that do not really add any meaningful electrical power into the grid. I believe, that Austria is on the limit too.

Renewables have limits I already talked about. Jeshus, people, can you not just google the basic facts before making bs assumptions and totally ignorant and uninformed
arguments?

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Originally Posted by womfalcs3 View Post
1.) There are studies that show the amount of CO2 produced in making the batteries that go into these cars offsets the CO2 saved by not burning gasoline. Popular Mechanics recently estimated 2.5 years required to offset the CO2 emissions of a gasoline-powered car: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...udy-fake-news/. Of course, this value can go up or down, depending on the size of the EV and conventional vehicle being displaced, and the amount of driving.
yeah... https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/06/...oline-driving/

Also, the transportation industry is responsible for 22% of all CO2 emissions

most of the emissions are made by trucks and planes:


Electric cars can therefore reduce the world's CO2 emissions by approx. 12% assuming the electricity will just fall from the sky(in reality the CO2 emissions will just move from transportation mode to electricity generation mode). Given that we have to cut emissions to something like a half to halt the global climate change, it is no good solution at all. You can feel good about yourself if you buy an electric car, but you are not saving the planet. The industry has to cut emissions to "save the planet". But that would mean cuts in logistics, electricity generation and industrial production. So, basically a return to pre-industrial era. Billions would die thanks to that. Nobody will ever do that.

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So even if all the energy comes from a poorly run fossil fuel plant it is still 10 times more efficient
No, it is not. The efficiency of a combustion engine is around 40%. Ten times more efficient is not possible because it would mean the car is perpetum mobile. Whats more, it even multiplies energy given to it and converts it into more energy... The efficiency of a motor is around 95-99%, the efficiency of a battery is 70-80%. And the electricity comes from the same cycle that has the efficiency of around 40%. Plus you have to account for losses in the electric grid. Converting fossil fuels to electricity and then to kinetic energy can never be more efficient than converting fossil fuel directly to kinetic energy. If we are talking about renewables, most of them have an efficiency of a standard turbine in the fossil fuel power plant, with the efficiency of the solar being well under 20%. Check wiki if you don't believe me.

The graphs are maybe older, they are the first thing that popped out at me from google when doing basic google search. They are good for illustration purposes. I don't want to spend all of my time in search for actualized graphs for just some forum post. But these are the basic facts that may teach you on technical universities.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #396
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No, it is not. The efficiency of a combustion engine is around 40%. Ten times more efficient is not possible because it would mean the car is perpetum mobile. Whats more, it even multiplies energy given to it and converts it into more energy... The efficiency of a motor is around 95-99%, the efficiency of a battery is 70-80%. And the electricity comes from the same cycle that has the efficiency of around 40%. Plus you have to account for losses in the electric grid. Converting fossil fuels to electricity and then to kinetic energy can never be more efficient than converting fossil fuel directly to kinetic energy. If we are talking about renewables, most of them have an efficiency of a standard turbine in the fossil fuel power plant, with the efficiency of the solar being well under 20%. Check wiki if you don't believe me.
If you think that you are getting 40% efficiency from ICE in your car you are a dreamer. 40% you can get running at the most efficient load and speed which is almost never (in real life). You even run the engine when you are not moving. At the same time the power plant can realistically get 60% for extended periods of time. As mentioned before if you account for loses in the power grid you should account for loss of efficiency caused by transportation of fuel from the port to your gas station.

Anyway CO2 should be your last concern not the first - car fumes have a lot of really harmful stuff in them and you inhale it 24/7 while living in the city. And moving the exhaust outside the city combined with much better filtration is the thing that make electric cars way better than ICE.
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Old July 25th, 2017, 10:18 PM   #397
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Psst. I will tell you a secret. The biggest fossil fuel electricity producent(and the biggest electricity producent as a whole) is coal....
There is nuclear energy too, it doesn't spew out CO2. And Slovakia is a tiny country, it may have hydro limit, but most countries are nowhere near that limit. And they can also install other renewable such as solar and wind. So electric cars are part of a comprehensive strategy which also includes switching from high carbon emitting power generation to lower carbon emitting ones.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 02:35 AM   #398
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As mentioned before if you account for loses in the power grid you should account for loss of efficiency caused by transportation of fuel from the port to your gas station.
No. Because it does not matter if you are transporting fuel into a gas station near a road or into an electric power plant, you still have to transport the fuel from a refinery into the power plant. With electric cars, you have to account for a whole new additional infrastrucre that is needed to transport the electricity to the car.
As for the efficiency, the argument that the efficiency of an engine is 40% only in the right conditions is a double-sided weapon, because the motor and the battery's efficiency is the declared number also only in the right conditions. Plus, a battery degrades and loses its efficiency really fast. Also, a battery loses charge over time, this effect is most prominent in a cold weather, so all these fancy scandinavian electric cars have in fact much lower efficiency than declared. Plus, gasoline cars in nordic countries can use the waste heat for heating up the interior of the car. Electric cars have to drain battery for that. That makes combustion engines in the northern climate even more efficient and batteries even more inefficient.

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Originally Posted by Dmerdude View Post
There is nuclear energy too, it doesn't spew out CO2. And Slovakia is a tiny country, it may have hydro limit, but most countries are nowhere near that limit. And they can also install other renewable such as solar and wind. So electric cars are part of a comprehensive strategy which also includes switching from high carbon emitting power generation to lower carbon emitting ones.
Not only failing to google the basic facts, but also to read my previous posts. Please, read my post on the previous page. There, I explain why is it not possible to maintain a sustainable electrical grid with renewables only and why right now it is not sustainable to use nuclear and will never be, if you ecoterrorists continue to push for banning nuclear in favour of solar and wind.
By the way - in hydroelectric power industry, it is not about how much of an area you have, but rather how big of a gradient you can achieve. A little country like Slovakia or Austria with lowest elevation of 90m a.s.l. and highest above 2000m a.s.k. can have comparable hydro power generation limit as big, but flat countries like Poland or Ukraine. Also, mountains are the source of all of those rivers that flow through those big countries. For example, Ukraine has a net installed hydro power generation capacity of 5,9GW and Austria has 4GW while being 1/7th the size. Slovakia has 2GW while being 1/12th the size.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 03:10 AM   #399
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The good thing is that electric cars can be charged during the night when electricity consumption is at its lowest.
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And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #400
lawdefender
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UK to follow France in banning petrol and diesel cars by 2040 – going all electric

https://electrek.co/2017/07/25/uk-ba...-all-electric/

Fred Lambert - Jul. 25th 2017 7:05 pm ET


Britain 'to ban all petrol and diesel vehicle sales by 2040'

Sales of new cars and lorries that rely on fossil fuels will be outlawed in a bid to reduce pollution

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7860181.html
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