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Old November 2nd, 2006, 06:58 PM   #1
ddes
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Could Tiger be bigger than SIA??

Hi, I don't know where to put this question so I started a new thread.

Don't expect it to last long.

Anyway, with Tiger Airways' agressive expansion and its buildup of overseas bases and the expected liberation of ASEAN's skies in 2008 the earliest, could it be possible that it could equal or be bigger than SIA?

If this is what happens, what's left for Silkair. Tiger mentioned that its passengers are mostly not from Singapore itself. So does Silkair's passengers.

Silkair does not seem to be growing at all, in fact, it's just maintaining it's status quo.

What are your views on this?
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 02:19 AM   #2
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Doesnt Silkair fly on pretty similar routes to Tiger?
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 04:22 AM   #3
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silk air will eventually die, its service is quite redundant.

Tiger airways can easily go the way of Ryan Air and be much bigger than many flag carriers. With the freeing up of the market anything is possible.
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Old November 3rd, 2006, 05:37 PM   #4
JediAlf
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Originally Posted by PJCCUK View Post
silk air will eventually die, its service is quite redundant.

Tiger airways can easily go the way of Ryan Air and be much bigger than many flag carriers. With the freeing up of the market anything is possible.
SIA, Silkair and Tiger Airways are in different classes - similiar to luxurious first class coaches, private coaches, public buses respectively on roads.

SIA is still the largest national carrier in Singapore which has more than 90 wide bodied planes. It won't be swept by Tiger Airways (a fleet of 6 Airbus A320 aim to increase to 20 with 13 A320 on order) which does not fly to countries outside India, Southeast Asia and China.

Air Asia will have the largest fleet of budget carrier which u should compare with Tiger Airways. Air Asia will have full 100 A320. Its old Boeing 737 will be replaced by Airbus A320 in stages. 60 A320 would be in operational with Air Asia after 2011.

Tiger Airways cater to budget minded passengers, Silkair caters to those who want services and not as expensive as SIA's premium services.

SIA would still cater to those who want to travel with reliable airlines that would deliver what they want.

SIA has the fleet of wide bodied planes. So Silkair - subsidary of SIA will take short haul flights which SIA's planes are not needed for such short haul flights.

So Silkair won't die. It will grow with SIA. So does Tiger Airways. All three airlines cater to different markets - long haul flights, regional flights and low cost flights.

SIA has stakes in both airlines - Silkair and Tiger Airways.

Airbus A320 and Boeing 737 are the common types that many budget carriers have adopted - easier to maintain and easier to turn around and fly out in short time.

Large planes do not do this quickly. It is more costly to maintain bigger planes so budget carriers may not be able to sustain such operation.

Breaking the record of using large jet is Oasis Airlines - Hong Kong based budget airlines - using 2 ex-SIA Boeing 747-400 - from Hong Kong to London Gatwick, making first long haul low cost flights.

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Old November 4th, 2006, 05:43 PM   #5
ddes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediAlf View Post
SIA, Silkair and Tiger Airways are in different classes - similiar to luxurious first class coaches, private coaches, public buses respectively on roads.

SIA is still the largest national carrier in Singapore which has more than 90 wide bodied planes. It won't be swept by Tiger Airways (a fleet of 6 Airbus A320 aim to increase to 20 with 13 A320 on order) which does not fly to countries outside India, Southeast Asia and China.
First things first, India, China and Southeast Asia in itself is a huge market, I won't even describe to you how markets in all these areas are growing. Europe's Ryanair and Easyjet flies within an area smaller than Southeast Asia.

Secondly, Tiger's aim to increase to 20 aircraft by 2007, not including SEAir, in its 3rd year of operations can be a good indicator of how big Tiger can grow.

By the way, if Europe and America's markets are any indicator, LCCs will be flying ppl from all walks of life, including business passengers.

Seeing how AirAsia has grown, 100 Tiger A319/A320s doesn't look impossible. Afterall, Ryanair has a stake in Tiger too and wouldn't want to see its Asian side do so badly.

I'm disappointed with Jetstar. From pure LCC to hybrid LCC to no-disguise feeder carrier of Qantas.

Just a question.
Barely a few months before they merged, Valuair spoke of massive expansions, leasing widebodies and all to Australia and NE Asia, business class, etc. They announced so many new routes like Xiamen, Fuzhou, Kunming. All of these a few months before merger.
Why?

I don't believe Valuair was suffering from really bad loads, losses? sure they do, no new airline breaks even so fast. Not enough cash? Temasek Hldgs, Star Cruises had stakes in Valuair.
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Old November 4th, 2006, 08:52 PM   #6
JediAlf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddarkdom View Post
First things first, India, China and Southeast Asia in itself is a huge market, I won't even describe to you how markets in all these areas are growing. Europe's Ryanair and Easyjet flies within an area smaller than Southeast Asia.

Secondly, Tiger's aim to increase to 20 aircraft by 2007, not including SEAir, in its 3rd year of operations can be a good indicator of how big Tiger can grow.

By the way, if Europe and America's markets are any indicator, LCCs will be flying ppl from all walks of life, including business passengers.

Seeing how AirAsia has grown, 100 Tiger A319/A320s doesn't look impossible. Afterall, Ryanair has a stake in Tiger too and wouldn't want to see its Asian side do so badly.

I'm disappointed with Jetstar. From pure LCC to hybrid LCC to no-disguise feeder carrier of Qantas.

Just a question.
Barely a few months before they merged, Valuair spoke of massive expansions, leasing widebodies and all to Australia and NE Asia, business class, etc. They announced so many new routes like Xiamen, Fuzhou, Kunming. All of these a few months before merger.
Why?

I don't believe Valuair was suffering from really bad loads, losses? sure they do, no new airline breaks even so fast. Not enough cash? Temasek Hldgs, Star Cruises had stakes in Valuair.

Operating an airlines is different from operating coaches or ships.

Firstly, kerosene for planes is very pure and very expensive. Diesel for coaches and ships is cheaper than Kerosene.

Secondly, all airports charge different landing fees for a jet depending on the size of the planes.

The most expensive airport is Tokyo's Narita Airport. Changi Airport charges the similiar fees for any planes regardless budget or premium, landing on a runway and a taxiway. The only difference is the prices in ground handling and servicing of the planes.

Thirdly, capacity of the airports can affect the operations of carriers. The most overcrowded airport hub is London's Heathrow International Airport - every non-British carriers are restricted to 3 landing slots. Only the main carriers have exclusive landing rights from London to US cities - United Airlines, American Airlines, British Airways and Virgin Altantic.

Not even new budget carriers can manage to get landing slot in Heathrow Airport - this is where major carriers have advantage over low cost carriers where they can have many connecting flights for travellers.

Most budget carriers would use low cost airports or old airports which have smaller runways or low cost terminals are located away from the main terminals and these carriers also do not need aerobridges to connect to the planes from the terminals.

Malaysia and Singapore still restricted most of flight rights to SIA and MAS. Some airlines would use Kuala Lumpur as transit while flying from Singapore.

China and India has the most of world population which can sustain all operations from premium to low cost flights. However the airports have to constantly upgrade or build low cost terminals, otherwise they would lose the competition.

Alot of people would think budget carriers can succeed and replace the main carriers. Fuel prices always rise and drop anytime. Tiger Airways is operating at losses and they are still adding more routes. Tiger Airways is still lagging behind Air Asia, RyanAir and Easyjet (all of have more than 100 jets after 2012!). Tiger Airways has barely 20 jets vs Air Asia's 100 orders of Airbus A320

Budget carriers can be easily wiped out, once the fuel prices rise and they could not afford to cover expenses - pilot wages and ground servicing and maintenance, navigation, . The maintenance of the planes is another killer to the operation. This explains why many budgets would use small jets - often one type models.

Cathay Pacific, Emirates, SIA etc.. are growing and making profits - why? Because they are able to generate more revenues from paying passengers compared to the budget carriers which are struggling to cover high fuel costs. Fuel surcharge is one way that they charge passengers in all airlines.

Jetstar and Valuair keeps on changing to keep afloat because they knew it is very costly to operate an airlines.

Many main carriers have investments in properties or backing from the national government. Budgets airlines are often just additional services from the main carriers to cater to budget passengers or privately owned.

Ryan Air is the only European budget carrier that remain profitable by using single type, less using administration office, using Internet, using credit card to charge people and short turnaround of planes, no seat numbers (for speedy loading). Same goes to Air Asia.

The first low cost is Southwest Airlines which is still profitable in the United States.

Not all budget carriers can survive - fierce competition. The main carriers would never disappear as many national airlines are still owned by Government.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 12:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediAlf View Post

if i'm not wrong, they are renting the planes from SIA right?
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Old November 7th, 2006, 06:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
if i'm not wrong, they are renting the planes from SIA right?
Nope. SIA has sold its two Boeing 747-400s to this airlines. SIA is phasing out Boeing 747-400s soon....
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #9
mandible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
if i'm not wrong, they are renting the planes from SIA right?
Not quite.....based on http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/T...ctive-a320.htm , none of their planes are leased from Singapore AIrcraft Leasing Enterprise, a subsidary of Singapore Airlines.

Instead, Jetstar Asia & Air Asia are customers of SALE.

http://www.saleleasing.com/customers.php?oid=customers
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