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Old June 16th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #1
skganji
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Indus Valley Civilization

It is frustrating to see the threads getting deleted. It is annoying and humiliating to see the threads getting deleted without giving any reasons by the administrator. However I am starting a new thread on Indus Valley Civilization and would like to see what happens if I post articles about Saraswati River and the discoveries about it.

Last edited by skganji; June 16th, 2010 at 07:40 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #2
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Trade route map of Meluhha and Dilmun.



Archeological sites on Saraswathi River ( Ghaggar-Hakra ).

Last edited by skganji; July 19th, 2010 at 06:36 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 07:50 PM   #3
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To the issue that Rig Veda is just from 1200 B.C ( fixed by Max Muller). This is an article from Asko Parpola who provides insight and evidences that point to earlier origins of Rig Veda.

http://www.helsinki.fi/~aparpola/jis16-17.pdf
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Old June 16th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #4
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I agree - let's keep the thread open and have some debate, nothing particularly offensive was said...
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Old June 16th, 2010, 07:59 PM   #5
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^There is no single date for the Rig Veda. Its origins date from deep antiquity all the way into the late Iron Age. Where did you get that date of 1200 BCE?
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:13 PM   #6
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well I appreciate the interest about IVC in this forum, but I still think there is too much of preoccupation about this in India.

As far as my interest goes, the earliest modern day 'city', and and the shift from hunting gathering to agrarian way of life came into existance and society became more organised a lot later than IVC.

What impacts our way of life, perception of history etc has more to do with recent history. ie. Mughal & Colonial era history, and not the age before that.

While I appreciate the interest in IVC etc I wish more people would turn thier attention towards analysing and studying Mughal and Colonial era history. Thats where 'India' was formed.. out of a sheer violence, turmoil and robbery. Thats when the real big wars were fought, thats when the communities changed identity, thats when false history was ewritten and thats when people lost face and their faith.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #7
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^Nothing of that sort happened before the Mughals and the British?
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #8
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Nayanjot Lahiri is the author of Finding Forgotten Cities:

How the Indus Civilization was discovered

Archaeology is as much about the thrill of discoveries as it is about the exploits of discoverers. Louis Leakey and Mary Leakey who made our ancestors older by several million years, the geologist, Arun Sonakia, who uncovered a hominid skull cap in the Narmada valley, the archaeologist John Marshall who unearthed the splendour of Taxila these names evoke the harvest of riches to be had in pursuing a study of the past. Such explorers and excavators certainly deserve the credit that is accorded to them. But their claim to fame is frequently anchored by people who remain unknown to most of us.

One such story revolves around India's successful recovery of her Indus past in the first five years of independence. Inevitably, it is a story that reminds us of Amalananda Ghosh. An officer of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) who went on to become its director-general, it was Ghosh who in 1950 began a systematic exploration of Bikaner, along the dried up bed of the ancient Sarasvati. Within two months, he found 70 sites, 15 of these yielded the same types of antiquities found at Harappa and Mohenjodaro.

But how did Ghosh's survey take place? How did the ASI an organisation hardly known for speedy implementation have the foresight in this instance to so swiftly undertake this work? And this, at a time when it was grappling with the problems of partition when all kinds of material, from precious antiquities to mundane stock and issue registers about admission tickets, had to be transferred; when the changing options of officers and staff from Pakistan to India and India to Pakistan was still being decided; when the organisation was even being prevented from undertaking the conservation of protected monuments that housed thousands of refugees. In truth, along with Ghosh's contribution, there is another claim to be staked, to the uncovering of the Indus civilisation in Rajasthan. That claim belongs not to an archaeologist but to a scholar administrator: Sardar K.M. Panikkar.

Kavalam Madhava Panikkar can hardly be described as a backroom hero. Born in Kerala in 1894, his remarkable career is well known, mainly as a resident of north India from the time when he became a professor of history at Aligarh in 1919 to the years when he served many princely states like Bhopal and Patiala in different capacities. A prolific historian, Panikkar also wrote Malayalam plays and poems. At the time of Partition, Panikkar was the Dewan of Bikaner, and soon after, he became India's ambassador to China, a role that was to earn him some notoriety in the years ahead.

That Panikkar is being remembered on the editorial page of the Hindustan Times is only fitting because he was its founder editor. This was in 1924. The first issue of HT was released by Mahatma Gandhi, and contained articles by Motilal Nehru, Maulana Muhammad Ali and Jawaharlal Nehru. It was in 1924 again when the discovery of the Indus civilisation was announced to the world. Panikkar's autobiography does not tell us whether this made any impression on him. What we do know is that many decades later he would be instrumental in pushing for the discovery of Indus sites in the desert states of Rajasthan.

In his autobiography, Panikkar describes his life and work in Bikaner in vivid detail. For instance, he expresses as much pride in his role in expanding the number of schools and colleges there, as in the fact that, like him, the Dewans of all the major Rajput States were South Indians. But, curiously enough, he did not consider his proactive interest in pushing Indus research as worth mentioning. What we know about it comes from a few forgotten letters and notes in government files.

It was in March 1948, less than a month before he took over as ambassador to China, that Panikkar wrote to Prime Minister Nehru about the necessity of a survey in the desert area of Bikaner and Jaisalmer. Panikkar had just finished serving Bikaner, as its Prime Minister. Incidentally, it is strange that he had no knowledge about the archaeological exploits of the late Lugi Pio Tessitori there. He had, however, met the famous archaeological explorer, Aurel Stein, who himself had undertaken field work in Rajasthan. Stein had mentioned to Panikkar that if his work was carried forward, it would show that the Indus civilisation originated in that tract. This was something that Panikkar himself wanted to undertake but owing to various difficulties had not found it possible to do so. He was, therefore, writing to Nehru to try and take this scheme forward.

Panikkar urged India's Pm to direct the ASI to explore the possibilities of such research. As he put it, With the separation of the Pakistan Provinces, the main sites of what was known as the Indus Valley Civilisation has gone to Pakistan. It is clearly of the utmost importance that archaeological work in connection with this early period of Indian history must be continued in India. A preliminary examination has shown that the centre of the early civilisation was not Sind or the Indus Valley but the desert area in Bikaner and Jaisalmer through which the ancient river Saraswati flowed into the gulf of Kutch at one time.

Nehru, as we shall see, was enthusiastic about the proposal. Quite apart from his own sense of history, Panikkar's suggestions were usually taken seriously by the PM. In 1947, it was he who had urged Nehru to consider the proclamation of Indian Independence at a midnight session of the Constituent Assembly. In a hilarious aside, Panikkar tells us that when Nehru read his note, he said that while he liked his suggestion, the problem was that two of his cabinet colleagues went to bed promptly at 9 pm. Nehru was referring to Patel and Azad. Panikkar promptly answered in the same vein: I will take care of that and provide two beds for them at Parliament House. The suggestion got cabinet approval within a day, Panikkar was, in fact, invited to the Cabinet committee to finalise the details.

Now, in March 1948, Nehru acted with the same promptness on Panikkar's Indus note. The next day, a letter from his principal private secretary, H.V.R. Iengar, enclosed a copy of the note to the Ministry of Education. The letter strongly underlined that the PM entirely agrees with the suggestion contained in the note and hopes that the Archaeological Department will undertake the explorations suggested, in Jaisalmer and Bikaner.

The proposal was sent to the ASI which suggested that roughly Rs 10,000 be allocated for it. However, the Finance Ministry, as it so often still does, decided to play spoiler, raising questions about why a central department should spend in a native state, especially when there was a general directive from the PM which had urged that avoidable expenditure should be postponed till normalcy returned. It required many missives to make the reluctant mandarins eventually loosen their purse strings. This would have been unlikely if this had not been Panikkar's proposal, supported by Nehru himself.

Finding forgotten Indus sites in India is seen as one of the major achievements of Indian archaeology since 1947, a quest that continues.

It is an accomplishment, though, that owes as much to scholars and statesmen who had the vision to push for such research, as it does to the discerning archaeologists who made the actual discoveries.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #9
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Dilip Chakrabarti derides the tendency to reduce historical debates to slogans of 'secularism versus communalism'

The Battle for Ancient India: An Essay in the Sociopolitics of Indian Archaeology
Author: Dilip K Chakrabarti

--------------------------
As water-starved Haryana urges the Oil and Natural Gas Commission for drilling machines to rediscover the paleo channels in which the once-mighty Saraswati may be flowing silently, it may solve one of the most vexatious issues of Indian history. Plagued with water disputes with Punjab and Rajasthan, the State, where Sri Krishna gave the famous command to do one's duty, may soon unravel the truth of a river once hailed as "best of mothers" and more lately mocked as "mythical".

Colonial Indology and its modern avatars may soon face a reality check. Dilip Chakrabarti takes this negative legacy head on in his latest work, deriding especially the tendency to reduce debates to slogans of 'secularism versus communalism'. On the Aryan invasion theory (now Aryan migration theory), he argues that the history of ancient India must be judged in its own terms and no claims of externally inspired diffusion of its cultural development be made unless there is strong supportive evidence and the hypothesis can be justified in clear geographical terms.

Chakrabarti notes that when Dayaram Sahni went to excavate Harappa in 1920, the abundance of pre-historic Palaeolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic remains, including Neolithic settlements in the south, and the 'Copper Age' was known. Any perceptive archaeologist would realise India had a pre-historic civilisation before its documented history, especially in view of the occurrence of seals with unknown writings and art-style at Harappa. India had a long history of trade and commerce with different countries, including Egypt, in the second millennium BC. Unfortunately, the theory about Indian 'races' and languages and the myths of Aryan and Dravidian invasions were invented before the Bronze Age Indus civilisation was discovered; hence, the finds at Harappa and Mohenjodaro had to fit into an entrenched paradigm.

In 1924, John Marshall reported that in the third millennium BC or even earlier, the peoples of Punjab and Sind lived in well-built cities with a mature culture, developed arts, crafts and pictographic writing. He was clear this civilisation developed in the Indus Valley itself. He noted its possible religious ambience, mentioning RD Banerji's finding of a tank at Mohenjodaro which he felt was a charanamritakunda, "receptacle for the holy water used for the washing of the sacred image". At Harappa, archaeologists found a small mound suggestive of an image shrine, though it is difficult to say if image worship existed then. Chakrabarti says this is a hint to seek reflection of the Indus religion in prevailing rituals of Hinduism.

RP Chanda created the confusion about the builders of Harappa and Mohenjodaro and the Rig Vedic Aryans. He believed the Indus civilisation was both pre- and non-Vedic. Yet, Chanda also tried to view the Indus civilisation within the framework of Indian tradition by identifying its yogic tradition as the root of one of India's most important spiritual dimensions; he also realised indebtedness of the Buddhist and Jaina traditions to the Indus civilisation. Mortimer Wheeler formalised the Aryan invasion to explain the demise of the Indus civilisation in 1947; the idea acquired hegemonic status in academia, though it was convincingly disputed by BB Lal (1953) and GF Dales (1964).

PV Kane examined the relationship between the Harappan civilisation and Vedic Aryans in his Presidential Address to the Indian History Congress in 1953. He argued that as Mohenjodaro and Harappa were major cities, "the remains of dead bodies would have been found on an enormous scale" in the event of an Aryan attack, and not limited to 26 skeletons at Mohenjodaro! The cities could have been deserted because the rivers on whose banks they stood shifted. Kane compared the internal evidence of the Rig Veda and excavated evidence of Indus settlements and found reverence for water and the Pipul tree in both. Regarding the occurrence of bulls on Indus seals, he noted that the Rig Veda referred to Indra and other gods as Vrishabha (bull). Astronomical references in the Rig Veda and Brahmanical literature suggested that the Rig Vedic people were earlier than the Indus Valley people, but as the evidence was meagre it was best not to dogmatise.

Tackling the festering dispute over the horse, Chakrabarti says horse bones have been identified in and before Harappan contexts by competent professionals like B Nath of the Zoological Survey of India. Moreover, Harappans could have imported horses from Central Asia as Shortughai was on the border.

The Cholistan archaeological survey showed the course of the Ghaggar-Hakra denoted the core area of origin of the Indus civilisation, prompting SP Gupta to coin the term Indus-Saraswati civilisation, as Ghaggar-Hakra denoted the Saraswati riverbed. Scholars challenge the view that the Rig Veda describes only an agricultural-cum-pastoral society. Bhagwan Singh has listed various crafts and professions, navigation, overland trade and commerce, housing and urban centres; while RS Bisht has shown that Dholavira was divided into three distinct parts: Upper, middle and lower, corresponding to the Rig Vedic parama, madhyama and avama.

Chakrabarti argues that as the spread of this civilisation was not limited to the Indus valley, there is no justification to call it the Indus valley civilisation; Marshall called it the Indus civilisation. While Indus-Saraswati civilisation does better justice to its sheer extent and the role of the Saraswati in its genesis, it does not cover the whole territory; hence, he favours Harappan civilisation. Moreover, in the current political context, Indus valley civilisation gives it a Pakistan twist.

Chakrabarti concludes that the archaeological sequence of all areas covered by Indus civilisation sites shows no break in any relevant area, or any evidence of new cultural inroads which cannot be explained geographically with reference to the Oxus-Indus-Pamir-eastern Iran political and economic interaction sphere. He feels the Harappan tradition, tempered with unidentified regional elements, laid the roots of the entire cultural development of the upper Ganga plain, given that the antennae swords of the Gangetic valley copper hoards have been verified as belonging to the Harappan tradition.

All people of the subcontinent are heirs of the Indus civilisation. It links the deep south through the find of a polished celt with incised Harappan script signs near Cuddalore, and several sites with antennae copper swords of the upper Gangetic valley copper hoard type as far as Ramanathapuram in Tamil Nadu and a tea estate in Kerala. Above all, it is not easy to note any non-Indian tradition in the figure of the sramana from Mohenjodaro or any other sculptural relic of this civilisation.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:45 PM   #10
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After seeing what barrykul has posted, I think I understand why the mods closed the original thread...
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
The Cholistan archaeological survey showed the course of the Ghaggar-Hakra denoted the core area of origin of the Indus civilisation, prompting SP Gupta to coin the term Indus-Saraswati civilisation, as Ghaggar-Hakra denoted the Saraswati riverbed.
Evidence?
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #12
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Two threads have been deleted. Please follow form guidelines before you post( looks like there are some 10 guidelines -see it in the India forums section). If you violate these guidelines you are putting this thread at risk. I have the patience to create the thread again but it is simply humiliating and annoying to get the thread deleted. It is upto the bloggers whether to get the thread deleted or it to be continued for education and awareness of ancient civilization. Fusionist, see how Egypt is preserving its archeological sites ( Valley of Dead, Luxor, Giza ) . These sites have immense importance for historical reasons and for tourism purposes. unfortunately politics and settling scores between political rivalries in India is responsible for the gross negligence of ancient India's history.

Last edited by skganji; June 16th, 2010 at 09:03 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:52 PM   #13
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^You got that right about gross negligence of India's history - especially criminal is putting India's history in the hands of incompetent fools while shutting out foreign historians from archaeological and historical sites.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 09:10 PM   #14
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Whatever we want to call the disappeared river Saraswati (the word Saras for the Indian Crane is well-known, and a large river that supported rich flora, fauna could appropriately be called the Saras-vati), shown via Satellite images and confirmed by three GOI entities Archaeological Survey of India, Indian Space Research Organisation, ONGC, the practical payoff from the defunct river Saraswati is helping Indian States to rejuvenate underground water resources in order to support agriculture and other water needs of people.

In the images gathered by Indian Remote Sensing Satellites, we see Sarasvati born in the Himalayan glaciers traversing through Haryana, Rajasthan, Gujarat states and joining the Arabian Sea beyond Rann of Kutch. Total length is 1600 kms. In many segments, ONGC has found groundwater resources and aquifers. In the desert region of Jaisalmer in Rajasthan, when 13 bore wells were construction, at a depth of 35 to 40 metres, groundwater reservoirs were discovered. They have noted by carbon dating, that this water is dated to circa 4000 years before present. The desiccation of River Sarasvati mentioned in the Puranas relates to this period. ONGC has taken this up as a part of its social responsibility and has made available drinking water from 4 such bore wells to the local villages. This ONGC project is also called Sarasvati. It can be said that this discovery has provided the impetus for a series of steps in the project for reborn Sarasvati.

Since 1986, efforts were started by some voluntary organizations for the rejuvenation of River Sarasvati. The initiatives started by Sarasvati Nadi Shodh Sansthan in Haryana have inspired the Government to move ahead with the project. In 2002 when NDA Government was in power, 40 ft. wide, 12 feet deep, 50 km. long Sarasvati Mahanadi Roopanahar (canal) was constructed. Starting from Mohangarh in Rajasthan, work is ongoing to extend the nahar by an additional 100 kms. to reach the waters to Gujarat region. Receiving its share of Narmada waters, one project is for Rajasthan to make available Sutlej waters through this nahar right upto Rann of Kutch. This rebirth of Sarasvati is also a part of the Gujarat Government 2010 Swarnajayanti project. On the upstream stretches, Haryana Government has demarcated the entire ancient channel of River Sarasvati almost across the entire state. They have noted that this Sarasvati Nadi which flows only during monsoon season was once a segment of the Vedic River Sarasvati. Combining with this, Haryana Government has allocated funds for the reborn Sarasvati for a stretch of 250 kms. Project work has started since February (2008). The project is proceeding apace to attain the objective of improved availability of drinking water and water for irrigation and promotion of tourism along the river bank. Archaeology Survey of India has discovered about 1000 ancient archaeological settlements on the Sarasvati River basin. Some of these are sacred pilgrimage sites dating back to the Vedic period. If Sarasvati reemerges as a perennial river (jivanadi), that is in its original state, the benefits of the project will not be restricted to the above-said three states alone. Experts opine that Reborn Sarasvati will act as an impetus for Interlinking of Rivers all over the nation. It is not an easy task to bring a millennia-old river back to life again. Together with clarity of project objectives, support of the people is also required. From the satellite images, it is seen that the width of Sarasvati ranged between 3 to 8 kms. On this river basin, evolved many peoples' settlements of villages. It is a great challenge to re-settle, in some cases, the people whose settlements are superimposed on archaeological sites. For this purpose, Government and non-government organizations are working together to make progress. For the Reborn Sarasvati, many Water Shed Management Projects, Projects for diversions of tributaries into the main stream are in progress. Haryana, Rajasthan, Gujarat Governments are very enthusiastic about the importance of this project.

Here is background paper from the Indian Institute of Science in Bengaluru, on the river Saraswati.
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/oct25/articles20.htm

Last edited by barrykul; June 16th, 2010 at 09:20 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #15
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Vedic rites flourished on the Banks of Sarasvati.
4 types of burials are mentioned in Atharvaveda ( Khanda 18 Sutra 2 mantra 34)
a) nikhAta (%{ni4-}) mfn. dug in , buried , fixed in the ground RV. &c. &c. ; dug up , excavated W.
b) Paropta - Bodies immersed in the water
c) Uddhita - leave the dead body for natural consumption.
d) Dagdha - cremating the body.

Burials in different forms were known in India from very early times
as mentioned in Atharaveda 5.30.14 (manu bhumigraho bhuvat) and 18.2.34-
( yo Nikhata ye paroptah ye chauddditah savamsthinagna haa vaha pitrovijeh uttave)
O Agni ! bring all those pitrs here in order that they may partake of the
offering, those (pitrs whose bodies) were buried or cast aside (paroptah) or
burnt with fire (Agni - dagdha) or deposited above (on trees or in caves)
uddhitah.
In Rgveda (VII 89. 1) the sage prays 'O Varuna ! may I not go the Earth
House.
In the Rgveda Samhita and Atharvaveda Samhita we find mention to a
house of earth (bhumigriha) for burial. Burial No. 29 at Kalibangan, where
the body and pots were laid inside the sun-dried brick chamber is an example
of this of Bhumigriha.
But, for the important persons in place of a simple oblong pits, special graves like the brick line one at Kalibangan, a wooden coffin at Harappa in cemetery R.37, made of rose wood and deodar were used.
If we look into the literary evidence we come across in Atharvaveda
Samhita a reference to a burial where the trunk of a tree was used as coffin.
In chapter XVIII 2.250 it is stated "may the tree not oppress them, nor the
great Goddess Earth". This is probably a reference to 'a coffin burial'.

Harappans were very meticulous about the location of the cemetery
area. At Kalibangan it is located on the south-west of the habitation area,
on the left bank of Sarasvati, far away from the living quarters and farthest
from the sacred, religious spot at KLB-3, where large number of fire places
were located.14 It is an open ground where the sun shines directly on it, and
it slopes towards the north. The water flowing from the river and the wind
blowing from north-east passes through the cemetery only after they had
crossed the religious and habitational areas. Being an and land there is high
percentage of salt in the soil which gets deposited in the form of white
patches over the ground.
Satapatha Brahmana prescribes a four corner mound facing south-east,
ground inclined to the north, out of sight of the village, in a peaceful spot
amid beautiful surroundings or on barren ground. In History of Dharmasastra,
Kane describes, "the site of cremation should be surrounded by a thicket of
trees, but it should be so open that the sun shines directly on it at mid-day.
It should be saltish land or land sloping to the north or it may be all level
ground."
All this I have mentioned not because I wish to state that the Harappan
way of disposal of the dead was guided by the norms laid down in the
above mentioned texts, which many scholars still believe to be of late
creations, but to point out that traditions die hard and in India oral traditional
had been traditions, that passed on from generations to generations, from
remote past. While analyzing the results of the excavations we should not
be guided only by the theories propounded by earlier scholars but must
keep our minds open to various oral traditions, ancient texts and present
day practices in the society. With the advancement of research many theories which were taken for granted have proved wrong.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 02:36 AM   #16
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Sign akin to Indus Valley’s found in Kerala



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MALAPPURAM: A rock engraving, similar to a sign of the Indus Valley Civilisation, has been found at Edakkal in Wayanad district of Kerala. A recent exploration at the Edakkal Caves revealed a picture of a man with a jar, a unique sign of the Indus civilisation.

Tangible evidence

Engraved supposedly with a stone-axe in linear style, the sign has proven itself to be a tangible evidence to link it to the Indus culture. It was the first time that an Indus sign is discovered in Kerala.

“But we do not claim that the Indus people reached Wayanad; nor do we argue that Edakkal was a continuity of the Indus civilisation,” said historian M.R. Raghava Varier, who identified the sign during the exploration in August.

He said, “What is striking in the Edakkal sign is the presence of an Indus motif, which has been rare and interesting.”

Man-with-the-jar has been a recurring motif of the Indus Valley signs. Though it uses the Indus motif, the Edakkal engraving has retained its unique style. With linear strokes, the engraver has tried to attain a two-dimensional human figure.

“The ‘jar’ is the same as in Indus ‘ligature.’ But the human figure is slightly different. This is where the influence of the Edakkal style predominates,” said Dr. Varier.
Unique

Though rock art sites are plenty in different continents, the rock engravings at the Edakkal Caves are unique in the world. The Indus Civilisation has been dated between 2,300 BC and 1,700 BC. The Edakkal culture, however, is yet to be identified with any particular time.

Historians say Edakkal represents quite a long period. The figures of ritualistic nature found at Edakkal represent different stages of human development, both historic and pre-historic. “But this one is definitely pre-historic,” Dr. Varier said.
http://www.thehindu.com/2009/09/26/s...2661621200.htm



Quote:
Mavadaippu is the latest discovery by the team. It had discovered a prehistoric rock art site at Porivarai (2003), and ancient rock paintings at Salekkurai and Sundasingam (2005), near Karikkiyur, about 40 km from Kothagiri in the Nilgiris. In fact, the team was totally unprepared for what awaited it at Porivarai. It turned out to be the largest rock art site in South India with about 500 paintings in an area that is 53 m long and 15 m wide. Experts say the rock paintings at both Mavadaippu and Karikkiyur could be dated to 2000 B.C. to 1500 B.C. How did they stumble upon this treasure trove? The group was at Kothagiri to provide training in arts and crafts to tribal youth at the Don Bosco Community College when it visited Konavakarai, a tribal village, where a rock art site reportedly existed. But the villagers were not aware of its existence. Disappointed, the team returned to the college in Chennai. During a discussion on rock art that evening, an Irula tribal student from Karikkiyur said he had seen such paintings on a rock-shelter in a forest near his village. Chandrasekaran and Gandhirajan lost no time in making it to Karikkiyur. A 7-km trek through an elephant corridor led them to the rock-shelter, locally known as Porivarai.

The paintings in white ochre include a procession of bisons, monkeys clambering up a tree branch, a herd of deer grazing, human beings welcoming one another with outstretched arms, a battle scene with men aiming at each other with bows and arrows, men on horseback engaged in battle, a shoulder-clasping dance after a successful boar-hunt, a man with a mask, the depiction of sun and its rays, a spiral, a tiger fighting another animal, and a man and his dog sleeping.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl24...9000206400.htm

Last edited by barrykul; June 17th, 2010 at 02:45 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 03:08 AM   #17
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Horse in Sarasvati Sindhu Civilization

MEL Mallowan (1965, Early Mesopotamia and Iran, London, Thames and Hudson, p. 123) notes:

"...dating Tepe Hissar IIIB a little before 2000 B.C... in Hissar IIIB the skull of a horse was found and furthermore the horse is alleged to have been domesticated at Shah Tepe much earlier still, thus long anticipating the first appearance of it at Boghazkoy in Central Asia Minor in the early Hittite period...."

Tepe Hissar is a key archaeological site with vivid links to the Sarasvati Sindhu civilization with many seals, motifs, artefacts...

A.K.Sharma, The Harappan horse was buried under the dunes of..., in Puratattva, Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society, No. 23, 1992-93, pp. 30-34]: "At Surkotada the bones of the true horse (equus caballus Linn.) identified are from Period IA, IB and IC. (radiocarbon dates: 2315 B.C., 1940 B.C. and 1790 B.C respectively). With the correction factors, the dates fall between 2400 B.C. and 1700 B.C... In 1938 Mackay (FEM, Vol. I, p. 289) had remarked on the discovery of a clay model of horse from Mohenjodaro. 'I personally take it to represent horse. I do not think we need be particularly surprised if it should be proved that the horse existed thus early at Mohenjo-daro'. About this terracotta figurine Wheeler wrote: (Indus Civilization, Cambridge, 1968, p. 92): 'One terracotta from a late level of Mohenjodaro seems to represent a horse, reminding us that the jaw bone of a horse is also recorded from the same time, and that the horse was known at considerably early period in northern Baluchistan... It is likely enough that camel, horse and ass were in fact all familiar feature of the Indus caravans.'... appearance of true horse from the neolithic sites of Koldihwa and Mahagara in Uttar Pradesh..." (Note: camel is also not depicted on Harappan inscriptions) The identification by Sharma has been endorsed by Prof. Sandor Bokonyi, Director of the Archaeological Institute, Budapest, Hungary (an archaeozoologist); he wrote in a letter dated 13 Dec. 1993 to the Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India: 'Through a thorough study of the equid remains of the prehistoric settlement of Surkotada, Kachchha, excavated under the direction of Dr. J.P. Joshi, I can state the following: The occurrence of true horse (equus caballus L.) was evidenced by the enamel pattern of the upper and lower cheek and teeth and by the size and form of incisors and phalanges (toe bones). Since no wild horses lived in India in post-Pleistocene times, the domestic nature of the Surkotada horses is undoutbtful. This is also supported by an intermaxilla fragment whose incisor tooth shows clear signs of crib biting, a bad habit only existing among domestic horses which are not extensively used for war."

"Perhaps the most interesting of the model animals is one that I personally take to represent a horse.' (Mackay 1938, vol. I, p. 289; vol. II, pl. LXXVIII). Lothal has yielded a terracotta figure of a horse. It has an elongated body and a thick stumpy tail, mane is marked out over the neck with a low ridge. Faunal remains at Lothal yielded a second upper molar. Bhola Nath of the Zoological Survey of India and GV Sreenivasa Rao of the Archaeological Survey of India note (S.R.Rao, 1985, p. 641): 'The single tooth of the horse referred to above indicates the presence of the horse at Lothal during the Harappan period. The tooth from Lothal resembles closely with that of the modern horse and has pli-caballian (a minute fold near the base of the spur or protocone) which is well distinguishable character of the cheek teeth of the horse.' "However, the most startling discovery comes from the recent excavation at Nausharo, conducted by Jarrige et al. (in press). In the Harappan levels over here have been found clearly identifiable terracotta figurines of this animal." (Lal, 1998, opcit., p. 112).
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Old June 17th, 2010, 05:42 AM   #18
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...the horses found in the early excavations at Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa do not come from secure levels and such `horse' bones, in most cases, found their way into deposits through erosional cutting and refilling, disturbing the archaeological layers.

Indeed, not one clear example of horse bones exists in the Indus excavations and elsewhere in North India before c. 1800 BCE (R. Meadow and A. Patel 1997, Meadow 1996: 405, 1998). Such `horse' skeletons have not been properly reported from distinct and secure archaeological layers, and worse, they have not been compared with relevant collections of ancient skeletons and modern horses (Meadow 1996: 392). Instead, well recorded and stratified finds of horse figures and later on, of horse bones (along with the imported camel and donkey), first occur in the Kachi plain on the border of Sindh/E. Baluchistan (c. 1800-1500 BCE), when the mature Indus Civilisation had already disintegrated.

Even more importantly, the only true native equid of South Asia is the untamable khur (Equus hemionus, onager/half-ass) that still tenuously survives in the Rann of Kutch. Both share a common ancestor which is now put at ca. 1.72 million years ago (while the first Equus specimen is attested already 3.7 mya.). The differences between a half-ass skeleton and that of a horse are so small that one needs a trained specialist plus the lucky find of the lower forelegs of a horse/onager to determine which is which, for "bones of a larger khur will overlap in size with those of a small horse, and bones of a small khur will overlap in size with those of a donkey." (Meadow 1996: 406).

To merely compare sizes, as Rajaram does following the dubious decades old Harappan data of Marshall, and then to connect the long gone "Equus Sivalensis" with the so-called "Anau horse", resulting in the "Indian country" type, is just another blunder, but Rajaram, the scientist, is not aware of it.


Proper judgment is not possible as long as none of the above precautions are taken, and when — as is often done — just incomplete skeletons or teeth are compared, all of which is done without the benefit of a suitable collection of standard sets of onager, donkey and horse skeletons. Rajaram and his fellow rewriters of history thus are free to turn any local half-ass into a Harappan horse, just as he has already done (see Frontline, Oct./Nov. 2000) with his half-bull.

Further, the archaeologists claiming to have found horses in Indus sites are not trained zoologists or palaeontologists. When I need to get my teeth fixed I do not go to a veterinarian or a beauty salon. Typically, S.P. Gupta (1999) does not add any new evidence, and just repeats palaeontologically unsubstantiated claims that are, to quote Rajaram, "myths and conjectures... through the force of repetition."

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/o...0500130100.htm

Basically : Sheer Incompetence + Wishful thinking = Wrong Results

Oh and incase you didn't notice - Tepe Hissar is in Iran, not India or Pakistan.

Last edited by Marathaman; June 17th, 2010 at 06:39 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 05:58 AM   #19
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Also, you'd probably want to read this article as well, regarding the hoax perpetrated by S.Rajaram and colleagues in order to prove the existence of horses in the IVC.

Horseplay in Harappa


excerpts on the "horse skeletons" and "horse seals"

In a paper written with the young Indian scholar, Ajita K. Patel, Meadow argues that not one clear example of horse bones exists in Indus excavations or elsewhere in North India before c. 2000 BCE.3 All contrary claims arise from evidence from ditches, erosional deposits, pits or horse graves originating hundreds or even thousands of years later than Harappan civilisation. Remains of "horses" claimed by early Harappan archaeologists in the 1930s were not documented well enough to let us distinguish between horses, hemiones, or asses.

Once the original was found, and compared over the Internet with his distorted image, Rajaram let it slip that the "horse seal" was a "computer enhancement" that he and Jha introduced to "facilitate our reading." Even now, however, he claims that the seal depicts a "horse." To deny it would be disastrous, since to do so would require rejection of his decipherment of the seal inscription - which supposedly includes the word "horse."

Once you see Mackay's original photo, it is clear that Rajaram's "horse seal" is simply a broken "unicorn bull" seal, the most common seal type found in Mohenjo-daro. In context, its identity is obvious, since the same page contains photos of more than two dozen unicorn bulls - any one of which would make a good "horse seal" if it were cracked in the right place.


Read the entire document though.

Last edited by Marathaman; June 17th, 2010 at 06:07 AM.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 06:26 AM   #20
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^From the same "Horseplay in Harappa" document, lets see how the Harappan "unicorn bull" motif was turned into a horse.

This is an intact Harappan seal:


This is a broken seal with the same animal and the clay impression of it used by S.Rajaram:



A bit of computer "enhancement"....



...and voila! We have a Harappan Horse seal! Note how the chipped edge of the seal magically becomes the neck and head of the horse.



____

In any case, the presence or absence of domesticated horses is not the sole criterion for proving/disproving a link between the Rigvedic tribes and Harappan settlements. There is an entire cultural "apparatus", evidence regarding which is scarce if not absent.

Last edited by Marathaman; June 17th, 2010 at 07:38 AM.
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