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Old June 3rd, 2004, 04:11 PM   #1
Grollo
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Mitcham Frankston Project WEBSITE

Love it or hate it, this road will soon be U/C with tolls. But no matter what you think of it you have to check out the web site.

It's the best web site I have ever seen for a major road development and probbaly one of the best web sites of any type. It's fast, slick and has stacks of info and interactive features:

http://www.mitchamfrankstonproject.com.au

Check out these mad interchanges:

Ringwood Bypass/Maroondah Highway:


Monash Freeway:


Princes Highway:


Mornington Peninsula Freeway:
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Old June 3rd, 2004, 04:19 PM   #2
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I wondered what the hell they were going to do with Heatherton Road / Princes HWY / Mitcham-Franga part. Looks like you won't be able to access Heatherton Road and Princes HWY anymore, the current interestion's a POS anyhow.

Since when did they make Monash / MF-T interchange a fully fledged one???

Co-incidence they've shown a very wide median strip?
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Old June 3rd, 2004, 04:37 PM   #3
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The Monash Freeway interchange isn't quite fully fledged because you won't be able turn south onto the tollway when travelling west on the Monash and you won't be able to turn east onto the Monash when travelling north on the tollway.

The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.

I think they will leave the option open to give the appearance that they are taking into account future public transport provision, but in reality it would never get built and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.
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Old June 3rd, 2004, 04:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tayser
I wondered what the hell they were going to do with Heatherton Road / Princes HWY / Mitcham-Franga part. Looks like you won't be able to access Heatherton Road and Princes HWY anymore, the current interestion's a POS anyhow.

Since when did they make Monash / MF-T interchange a fully fledged one???

Co-incidence they've shown a very wide median strip?
The website says its being built with consideration for future rail links in the corridor.
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Old June 4th, 2004, 03:44 AM   #5
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What a great website. I too think it would have to be the best web site for any roadproject in Australia. Its informative and provides interactive maps and plans. I for one, can't wait to see this project completed.
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Old June 4th, 2004, 04:23 AM   #6
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I'm a little concerned that the state is providing a good website and domain and thus incurring costs that are normally saddled on the BOOT concession holder...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollo
The Monash Freeway interchange isn't quite fully fledged because you won't be able turn south onto the tollway when travelling west on the Monash and you won't be able to turn east onto the Monash when travelling north on the tollway.
yeah it seems to be some modified (handicapped?) 3-stack, yet sprawling over more space than the M4-M7 4-stack interchange U/C...


Quote:
The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.
it's a fob.
(you can, though, build a bus interchange at the concourse level under the freeway, or over the freeway I suppose)

Quote:
I think they will leave the option open to give the appearance that they are taking into account future public transport provision, but in reality it would never get built and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.
uhuh. exactly.
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Old June 4th, 2004, 05:27 AM   #7
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If that pic of Ringwood doesn't screem "Give me highrise", then I don't know what does!
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Old June 4th, 2004, 10:41 AM   #8
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How ironic, "swap the traffic tangle... for some driving freedom... mor jobs and opportunities". What a load of bullshit!!! It sounds like a bloody car advertisement.
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Old June 4th, 2004, 11:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Steve
What a great website. I too think it would have to be the best web site for any roadproject in Australia. Its informative and provides interactive maps and plans.
OMG, you are so right, that website rocks!! I've just spent the last hour cruising around the aerial views of the suburbs and it is superb! What I wouldn't give to have aerial maps like that of all of Australia's metro areas!!!
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Old June 5th, 2004, 05:57 AM   #10
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"Get home sooner... Or stay later... Less traffic means more fishing!"

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!!!

I've never seen so much propaganda advertising a new freeway.
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Old June 7th, 2004, 03:29 AM   #11
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Interesting site, although doesn't state where the toll points will be.
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Old June 7th, 2004, 08:37 AM   #12
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I thought that the winning bidder consortium hasn't been announced yet?
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Old June 7th, 2004, 08:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollo
The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.

I think they will leave the option open to give the appearance that they are taking into account future public transport provision, but in reality it would never get built and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.
Of course, it's just to cover up the fact that they aren't using a balanced approach. It's rather ironic though, people still asking for a railway line to Rowville so they offer a freeway with pointless a rail reservation! *coughs*
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Old June 7th, 2004, 08:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blabbyboy
I thought that the winning bidder consortium hasn't been announced yet?
It hasn't, your taxes are paying for the very swish website. Which is unusual, though overall probably not a large expense in the overall tender process.


---

Quote:
Originally Posted by AusLink summary
a $422 million contribution to the Scoresby Freeway, provided the Victorian Government reverses its decision to impose tolls.
(emphasis added)

So, the Commonwealth is sticking to its guns. The project must be considered to be up in the air still then?
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Old June 25th, 2004, 09:02 AM   #15
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Absolutely spectacular website.

Lovin' this project. My special eastern suburbs will be totally different when I return home. The major interchanges all look nice, but what concerns me are the smaller ones. i.e. half assed.

You see, there's one major problem with Melbourne's, and I assume all of Australia's freeways and the intersections they share with major roads. Stop Lights.

Traffic coming off and wanting to get onto the freeway are hurded up to and stopped at right turn lane lights for two or three minutes while the highway in front tries to clear a km of traffic from the last right turn green light.



In Toronto, in fact all over Canada and the U.S. where I've been, inluding this intersection at Hurontario and the QEW I take everyday, traffic coming onto and off the freeway enjoy a nice simple clover leaf interchange. Nothing too big to spoil the area, but kind enough for everyone to be able to zip onto and off. No overpasses, (aside from the freeway over the street) no stop lights, just a breeze each way, and the smaller road flows as though there was no freeway there at all.



It's such a simple concept that hasn't found its way to Melbourne for some illogical reason, and disappointing to see its not included in this proposal.

Another thing we're missing out on.. Separated Collector and Express lanes on the same freeway each way. The 401 in Toronto is a sight to behold. Everyone cruises down that motherf^&#er at 130kph (when it's not peak hour gridlock).. I love it. Although in some places it's an 18 lane monstrosity, 5 Collectors and 4 Express each way. I believe it's supposed to be the busiest freeway in the world? What I'm trying to say is the city has a nice freeway system, we could learn a thing or two from it. Although we can certainly ignore their frustrating 50kmh on arterial roads.. 60kph is an absolute rarity and luxury on non-freeway Toronto roads. Don't even think about 80kph roads ie Springvale and Burwood Hwy, they don't exist.. at least I haven't seen them. Imagine 50kph on a road like Punt or Wantirna Rd. Ew.

Cheers.
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Old June 25th, 2004, 09:58 AM   #16
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the capacity of a Cloverleaf is less that that of a SPUI. You will be lucky to see another cloverleaf constructed anywhere in the world. The cloverleaf pictured with Collector-Distributor lanes is going to be significantly more expensive too. The space taken by cloverleaves destroys what remains of suburbs divided by freeways in the first place.


As for 401, well it's the major US-Canada freight route, you can see why its four carriageways wide. As for Toronto, there's a fair few threads here about Toronto public transport...
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Old June 25th, 2004, 01:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm_free_wig
Absolutely spectacular website.
Although we can certainly ignore their frustrating 50kmh on arterial roads.. 60kph is an absolute rarity and luxury on non-freeway Toronto roads. Don't even think about 80kph roads ie Springvale and Burwood Hwy, they don't exist.. at least I haven't seen them. Imagine 50kph on a road like Punt or Wantirna Rd. Ew.
Sounds like a good idea. Would make the roads much safer and easier for public transport to be made competitive (whenever they get off their arses and actually do something about public transport).
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Old June 25th, 2004, 05:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetfig
the capacity of a Cloverleaf is less that that of a SPUI. You will be lucky to see another cloverleaf constructed anywhere in the world.
I don't know about that, I've never seen a SPUI in action.. aren't they newish? Is there one in Melbourne that maybe I've been over but didn't know it? Does it work without stop lights? It can't imagine so, so vehicles still have to stop. Apparently they 'allow for concurrent left turns' (or right depending on what side you're driving on).. but someone still has to stop and wait somewhere right?

Quote:
The cloverleaf pictured with Collector-Distributor lanes is going to be significantly more expensive too.
The one pictured is a small service road, but I guess it's acting as a collector. These cloverleafs are everywhere in the U.S. and Canada. They are at every intersection on every freeway.. you just do not see lights for left turns, period. Even that new 407 tollway in Toronto has them (10 years old now granted).

Here's a better picture of previously posted road..



As for them not being constructed anywhere else again.. that's just nonsense. These clover leafs I'm sure are pretty large at freeway grade interchanges and maybe they won't be seen there again, but the guy I have pictured above ain't all that large IMHO, people have to slow down to 40kph to take them safely. But they're the way freeways work in North America.. and they work very well despite the presumption against them, they've a bad rap due mainly to pictures only taken at peak when they're gridlocked, I haven't been stopped on any freeway, on or off them, in Toronto bar the 401.

I can't imagine why it'd be _that_ much more expensive either. It's all on the one level, like I said before, only the one road/freeway overpass. If they're 'significantly' more expensive, why are they so common here in place of lights? Let us know the differnce is costings to explain your theories.

Quote:
The space taken by cloverleaves destroys what remains of suburbs divided by freeways in the first place.
Come and live in Mississauga and then tell me that this place has been 'desroyed' by the freeways and their interchanges that are around here. That's just ill-informed tripe. A suburb is a reflection of the people that live there, not the freeway that services it.

Quote:
As for 401, well it's the major US-Canada freight route, you can see why its four carriageways wide.
That, and people just like to drive on it for some reason. The roadworks ATM before the 427 are a hassle.

Quote:
As for Toronto, there's a fair few threads here about Toronto public transport...
Toronto has public transport? j/k

What I'm saying is that we are doing construction of this freeway sub-standard. The Burwood Highway, as one example, shouldn't have to stop at all when going over the freeway. Through its current design, the highway will just have another set of added stop lights for turns that could easily be solved by other methods.

Oh yeah. As for them not being built anymore. I lived in Vancouver for six months, and on my many trips for work to Chilliwack along the Trans-Canada, they didn't seen to think much of your theory as they were introducing new clover intersections in Langley and Chilli as well. :S

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Last edited by mmm_free_wig; June 25th, 2004 at 06:06 PM.
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Old June 26th, 2004, 02:17 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmm_free_wig
I don't know about that, I've never seen a SPUI in action.. aren't they newish?
yes


Quote:
Is there one in Melbourne that maybe I've been over but didn't know it?
I don't know every Melbourne interchange...

Quote:
Does it work without stop lights? It can't imagine so, so vehicles still have to stop. Apparently they 'allow for concurrent left turns' (or right depending on what side you're driving on).. but someone still has to stop and wait somewhere right?
Single three phase light.

Quote:
The one pictured is a small service road, but I guess it's acting as a collector. These cloverleafs are everywhere in the U.S. and Canada.
And Canada has a grand total of three[?] stack interchanges...
Service roads? euh, if the freeway isn't a blight on the landscape, let's double its width with service roads!

Quote:
They are at every intersection on every freeway.. [snip] As for them not being constructed anywhere else again.. that's just nonsense. These clover leafs I'm sure are pretty large at freeway grade interchanges and maybe they won't be seen there again, but the guy I have pictured above ain't all that large IMHO, people have to slow down to 40kph to take them safely.
And that coupled with the weaving motions makes them unsafe and gives them a low capacity. The one six-ramp cloverleaf in NSW is the MR5-MR9 interchange, you come around the 55km/h ramp (large radius for a cloverleaf) having just had to slow down from 110km/h, you then have to accelerate to 70km/h and merge out of the left lane (while traffic is trying to merge into it) to avoid entering the other loop ramp, in 200m. Picture that on two freeways travelling at 110km/h, and it makes for a pretty large traffic jam quickly.


Quote:
But they're the way freeways work in North America.
For those interchanges that aren't diamonds, SPUIs, partial clovers or some type of stack or feeder.

Quote:
and they work very well despite the presumption against them, they've a bad rap due mainly to pictures only taken at peak when they're gridlocked, I haven't been stopped on any freeway, on or off them, in Toronto bar the 401.
You won't be off peak, unless you have an accident.

Quote:
I can't imagine why it'd be _that_ much more expensive either. It's all on the one level, like I said before, only the one road/freeway overpass.
The most significant expense is land. The area they take is huge for a 60km/h loop ramp.

Quote:
If they're 'significantly' more expensive, why are they so common here in place of lights? Let us know the differnce is costings to explain your theories.
Reclaimed land? long outstanding 100m wide reservation? no constitutional guarantee of market value in resumptions? tricky behaviour with easements? Government with too much money to spend? but seriously look beyond 401, in fact, look beyond Toronto, in the same way look beyond I10/LA for what generally happens on freeways...


Quote:
Come and live in Mississauga and then tell me that this place has been 'desroyed' by the freeways and their interchanges that are around here. That's just ill-informed tripe. A suburb is a reflection of the people that live there, not the freeway that services it.
Which came first, the road or the houses?


Quote:
Toronto has public transport? j/k
no comment.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that we are doing construction of this freeway sub-standard. The Burwood Highway, as one example, shouldn't have to stop at all when going over the freeway. Through its current design, the highway will just have another set of added stop lights for turns that could easily be solved by other methods.
A non-controlled access highway, with frontage properties and innumerable sets of traffic lights? Maybe a volleyball if the congestion is really causing significant delays on the freeway.

Quote:
Oh yeah. As for them not being built anymore. I lived in Vancouver for six months, and on my many trips for work to Chilliwack along the Trans-Canada, they didn't seen to think much of your theory as they were introducing new clover intersections in Langley and Chilli as well. :S

Paul.
I chastise their civil and traffic engineers for their stupidity and waste of public funds.
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Old June 26th, 2004, 02:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollo
The website says that there will be options for heavy rail and light rail, I presume that means down the middle of the freeway which would be just plain stupid A railway down the middle of the freeway just wouldn't work as the stations could only be used for park and ride because you can't develop an activity centre around a station in the middle of a freeway or on the adjacent parklands.....and they would be better off narrowing the freeway and reducing it's impact.
I don't agree with this completely. If you look closely at the areas of land that are already developed a railway line that goes partially down the freeway would make sense (I'm referring mostly to Dandenong to Ringwood). I think the best route from Dandenong to Rowville would be north east along the existing corridor diverting onto the freeway north then diverting east again towards Stud Park across the D'nong valley creek/powerstation (south of Wellington Road) then up stud road to Stud Park. This way the first section of tunnel necessary would be a cut and cover between the Wellington/Stud roads intersection and Rowville station (Stud Park). Otherwise a more expensive tunnel would be required from Dandenong to go directly north. A realigned Yarraman Station (to near the Showgrounds) would extend the high density possibilities for Dandenong.

For most other sections though a rail alignment down the centre would be useless.

In general I don't know what my opinions are on this project. I think it is necessary in the long run, but it should be done at least in conjuntion with, if not after some serious PT upgrades. Unfortunately, the way it seems to be occurring will do nothing in the long run for traffic. After 10 or 15 years, intensive development in the main centres will negate the benefits of the freeway - in other words a trip between Ringwood and Dandenong which now takes around half an hour to 40 minutes will still take half an hour to 40 minutes because you will spend 10-15 minutes minimum at each end to exit, find a park and crawl through the traffic etc. etc. If you put in intensive PT in this corridor after 10 years they would definately compete timewise for centre to centre trips.

On the other hand there is already too much traffic (particularly heavy vehicles) on the north south roads, and it would be good if their speed limits were reduced, bus lanes or trams were put in, cycle lanes etc. and that's something that could be done immediately after the freeway opens. In other words force people onto it - which hopefully would then force more onto PT due to the tolls - which is what happened on the Dandenong corridor due to Citylink - patronage up 5% per year since the toll road opened.

I also agree with it being a toll road and in general think that all freeways should either be tolled or part of a two tiered registration system - ie cheaper rego if you don't use freeways, or day, or multi-day passes for infrequent uses of the whole freeway system (this is how it is in Austria, where I used to live. People tend to have one car per family registered for freeway use and the other just for short local trips. If you needed to use both cars you would pay for a pass for the second car. It really encourages PT use and is a direct incentive not to drive) On that point I also think that regos in general should be linked to the amount of Kilometres driven the previous year - ie. If you drive average you pay average, if you drive 10 percent less or more you pay 10 percent less or more, and so on.

Anyway that's enough for now.
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