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Old February 12th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #41
JD47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citybus View Post
Whether it's ugly or not is subjective. Why not rennovate it (assuming it needs that) and build another skyscraper elsewhere. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
It all depends. Me personally I dont like it but thats my opinion.
They have plans to make it bigger so I like the idea.
We cant build skyscrapers anywhere else because they are always rejected.
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Old February 15th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #42
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It's an ugly old stump that should be demolished. Why anyone would want to retain it is beyond me.

It is no different to that criminal development "Hawkins House".

Frankly, the whole area around Tara Street is depressing. So many historic buildings in this area were demolished by dodgy developers and corrupt TDs. The place is unrecognisable to what it was in the 1920s.

Liberty Hall is a monument to everything that is corrupt in this State. It is a monument to the people that destroyed vast parts of Georgian and historical architecture in Dublin.

Get rid of it and put an iconic 32 storey tower in its place. Something that actually represents Dublin in 2012.

But no, that won't be allowed. It will be replaced by a stump, some mediocre dross, reminiscent of the corruption of this city.
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Old February 15th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Gaillimh View Post
It's an ugly old stump that should be demolished. Why anyone would want to retain it is beyond me.

It is no different to that criminal development "Hawkins House".

Frankly, the whole area around Tara Street is depressing. So many historic buildings in this area were demolished by dodgy developers and corrupt TDs. The place is unrecognisable to what it was in the 1920s.

Liberty Hall is a monument to everything that is corrupt in this State. It is a monument to the people that destroyed vast parts of Georgian and historical architecture in Dublin.

Get rid of it and put an iconic 32 storey tower in its place. Something that actually represents Dublin in 2012.

But no, that won't be allowed. It will be replaced by a stump, some mediocre dross, reminiscent of the corruption of this city.

I totally agree with you. All around that area reminds me of New York City suburbs in the 1980s with all the graffiti on the subways and on the streets. They should knock it down and show Europe and the world that we are an important nation and Dublin a world class important city.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 11:12 PM   #44
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Looks like its got the go ahead to be demolished!! I just hope the
new extra height wont reduced in the mean time by An Bord Plonkers.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #45
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The new plan has just been approved by Dublin city council. Just wait for the vile self interest groups and An Taisce to come out with yet more ridiculous objections based on height. Demolish it now. It's in disrepair and is Fugly in the extreme. Let's build a new tower for the 21st century worthy of a capital city. This will be at the hands of ABP now, and unfortunately this fills me with despair. I really hope thy surprise me this time.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0224/liberty.html
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Old February 25th, 2012, 01:16 AM   #46
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Good. Can't wait for work to start. There is no merit in retaining the existing building whatsoever. Anyone who objects on the basis there is anything architecturally or historically significant to be protected by retaining the structure needs their head examined.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 02:46 AM   #47
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Great news. Unfortunately, the usual crowd will appeal to An Bord Pleanála, so I won't hold my breath.

Today's Irish Times' take on it:

Quote:
New 22-storey Liberty Hall plan gets go-ahead

JOANNE HUNT

Sat, Feb 25, 2012


The proposed new Liberty Hall building

SIPTU SAYS it will go ahead with the redevelopment of its iconic Liberty Hall building after Dublin City Council gave approval for its demolition subject to conditions yesterday.

The move will see the razing of the trade union’s landmark 17-storey Eden Quay tower to create office space, a conference auditorium and a rooftop heritage area. If it passes an expected appeal to An Bord Pleanála, the new structure will be 22 storeys and about 100m high.

A spokesman for Siptu said last night the union was keen to go ahead with the development and had “put funds aside” for the project.

He said some 50 per cent of the office space would be occupied by Siptu itself, which would look to amalgamate its various Dublin offices on one site. The remaining office space will be for lease.

However, he declined for commercial reasons to comment on the cost of the project as competitive tenders would be sought for the development of the site.

A considerable proportion of the development would be “for public use”, he added.

In a further statement, general secretary of Siptu, Joe O’Flynn, welcomed the council’s decision, saying the union would be “considering the various conditions attached to the planning permission over the coming days”.

Siptu unveiled the details of its proposed development at its centenary annual conference in October 2009, pledging that the new Liberty Hall would have a “wow factor” second to none in the capital, surpassing the Guinness Storehouse. The union has said the existing building, which dates from 1965, was “unable to meet the operational needs of the union in the 21st century”.

With union membership doubling since Liberty Hall was built, Siptu said the dysfunctional nature of the space and the building’s environmental performance needed improvement. Central to the revamp was the provision of a four-storey area at the top of the new building comprising a major heritage centre, focusing on the history of the country’s labour movement, and a “sky deck” providing panoramic views of the city.

Having lodged its original planning application with Dublin City Council in February 2010, the union withdrew the proposal a year later due to what it described as “design issues”.

Its most recent planning application was lodged just before last Christmas.

Speaking when the first proposal was withdrawn, in February 2011, Mr O’Flynn said that “while the union, its professional advisers and Dublin City Council officials have worked hard to resolve these outstanding issues, time simply ran out on us”.

He said that after “detailed consideration” it had withdrawn the application to allow it more time to resolve the matters.

Mr O’Flynn said the union remained fully committed to proceeding with “this major project for the union and the city of Dublin as the current building is no longer fit for purpose”.

While the build was approved by the council yesterday, it is subject to about 20 conditions which the union says it will now study with its professional advisers.

These conditions include a requirement for a clearer description of the “trapezoid and rectangular elements” of the upper tower, a redesign of the lower block to be “more cognisant of the existing streetscape”, wind tunnel testing as well as consultation with rail and bus authorities to ensure construction does not obstruct commuters.

Designed by Gilroy McMahon Architects, who were also responsible for the development of Croke Park, the facilities are to also include a theatre at ground level.

Architect Des McMahon said last February the building was likely to attract 250,000 visitors annually, generating significant revenue for Siptu.

© 2012 The Irish Times
And everyone's favourite, Frank McDonald:

Quote:
City planners give green light for demolition of Liberty Hall

FRANK McDONALD, Environment Editor

Sat, Feb 25, 2012

DUBLIN CITY planners have granted permission to Siptu for the demolition of Liberty Hall and its replacement by a much taller and bulkier building – described by one critic as having the attributes of a “Sumo wrestler”.

At a height of 93.6 metres, the new tower would be more than half as tall again as Dublin’s first “skyscraper” as well as being significantly broader and would include a “skydeck”.

The decision, which is certain to be appealed to An Bord Pleanála, contains 20 conditions, many of them very detailed. Some relate to the architectural treatment and also require a full survey of the existing building, so it can be “preserved by record”.

The planners are also seeking “wind-tunnel” tests, details of all external materials, finishes and design changes “to ensure the provision of a building of exceptional architectural character and quality” on the site at Eden Quay.

Siptu’s architects, Gilroy McMahon, are required to provide “details of the type and colour of all elevation and roofing materials and finishes, including all glazing, curtain walling, rain screen glazing, louvres, baffles, screens [and] ventilation grilles.”

But architect and critic Shane O’Toole, speaking for Docomomo Ireland, which is committed to preserving monuments of the Modern Movement, said last night it would appeal the decision to An Bord Pleanála.

“It’s among the best-known landmark structures in the city from the 20th century, and we can’t afford to lose our architectural memory”, he said. “If our old boyfriend was tall, skinny and lanky, the new fellow knocking on the door is a Sumo wrestler.”

He also suggested that the proposed development “is unrealistic in the current climate” and Siptu would be “better off looking at alternatives, such as a site near the M50, which would be better located to serve the union’s national membership.

Siptu maintains the existing 60-metre-high building, which dates from 1965, is no longer functional. Welcoming the planners’ decision, general secretary Joe O’Flynn said it would be considering the conditions along with professional advisers.

“The decision to proceed with the redevelopment of Liberty Hall . . . was based on the reality that the present building is unable to meet the operational needs of the union in the 21st century”, Siptu said, adding that its “dysfunctional nature” meant that it had to be replaced.

Docomomo, in its objection to the latest plan, said the “gargantuan tower” now proposed would largely contain speculative office space, which Siptu itself had said “would be available for sale or leasing, to generate revenue and offset costs”.

This is the union’s second attempt to replace Liberty Hall.

An earlier planning application was withdrawn last year after city planners were unenthusiastic about the design.

© 2012 The Irish Times
I'd say the views from the top of the new Liberty Hall would be pretty amazing!
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Old February 25th, 2012, 03:56 AM   #48
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The views would be fantastic all right, you'd be able to see half the city! I'm very much in favour of this as long as it has a brilliant design to go with the brilliant location. Just a single, landmark building here could be a great focal spot for the city, and would look fantastic. I do want to see more renders, though.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 04:16 AM   #49
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The render in the Irish Times article is not the right render. It's taller then that. That was the original proposal in 2009.

This is it

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Old February 25th, 2012, 06:29 AM   #50
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He does it again. Just look at how Frank has worked in his pathetic bias using quotes from others

Quote:
a much taller and bulkier building

Sumo wrestler

certain to be appealed to An Bord Pleanála

unrealistic in the current climate

better off looking at alternatives, such as a site near the M50

gargantuan tower
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Old February 25th, 2012, 01:12 PM   #51
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Welcome news indeed that Liberty Hall is to be demolished. I quite like the design for the new building, my one reservation being that it's significantly taller than any building around it. Regardless, it's about time we'll have a proper landmark (in size terms) site in the city.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 07:54 PM   #52
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As I've said before Liberty Hall is one of the best 1960s era building around. Whilst I would like to see it refurbished....I won't shed any tears if it is replaced.

Theres the rub though....if An Bord Pleanala are so fanatically anti-highrise that they would reject a childrens hospital solely on height grounds....then the Liberty Hall proposal doesn't stand a snowballs chance in Hell. Either it will be rejected or ABP will insist that 5/6 floors are lopped off ensuring that it is the same height (59m) as the current building!

BTW, I actually think the first proposal with the curved upper floors was much more elegant. I can't immagine why Dublin City Council would insist that the top be "squared off" as it adds nothing to the building!
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Old February 27th, 2012, 08:11 PM   #53
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This attitude to this is a total joke. I could name a list of skyscrapers shot down over the years since i started paying attention (i think the Southbank tower in about 99/2000 was the first one). I think it was 120 metres tall and all the newspapers were raving about how it was twice the height of liberty hall (even then i thought 'big deal?' just build the damn thing) and that it would block sunlight (hello, this is Dublin)
Not one single skyscraper materialised. It pains me to think of the boxy crap that was built during the boom years that passed for 'iconic' The spire was an absolute waste of time that celebrated the millennium 3 years too late. The IFSC looks like something a kid would build out of Duplo.

As an Irishman working in Rotterdam I see skyscrapers on a daily basis. And i love looking up at them. At the moment they are building a comples of 3 x 150metre tall towers called 'de Rotterdam' which has something like a 60 metre base. So to hear the new LH called a 'sumo wrestler' is just stupid. It really is beyond belief how small-minded some people are. And things will stay that way if you let them. The vast majority of Dubliners couldn't give a hoot if skyscrapers were built in the right places.

Now, if SIPTU has the money to invest in the newer structure, then they should be given full support. There must be people with enough brain cells to realise that if you keep holding every single proposal back, that you might be holding the whole city back. It's stopping Dublin from being part of the modern world. It's OK for Athens or Rome to keep skyscrapers out of their historic sites, but it's arrogant to compare Dublin to cities like those. I once got offended by a French friend who called Dublin a 'shithole' that it was grey and ugly, but really, what are we supposed to be protecting by holding these projects back? The Liffey is always the colour of dirty dish water. Eveything past the loop line bridge could be carpet-bombed and would look better.
The last time i saw Liberty hall was about 3 years ago when i was visiting Dublin and it was full of broken windows. If i thought about what was worth protecting in Dublin i'd say the book of Kells. While I lived in Dublin I never once went to Trinity to see it.
I read an article lately that the sale of Montevetro, a 16 story building to Google accounted for 81% of commercial space sold in Dublin that year. A few skyscrapers in this city would do wonders for the commercial market i can bet my bottom dollar on that. If you constantly think small, you will stay small

Last edited by Keano; February 27th, 2012 at 08:17 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #54
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I agree with ThebigC, the circular viewing floor at the top looks much better than the newer design. Keano, you've some good points there, but I don't agree that everything beyond the Loop Line bridge could be demolished. There are plenty of nice buildings there. It's just that there's a lot more bland ones...
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Old February 27th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #55
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I hope this building gets demolished.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 10:30 PM   #56
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Keano, whilst I don't agree with your carpet bombing suggestion!!...I do think you have made a very cojent point. Mature European cities such as Rottdedam, Amsterdam, Paris etc recognise that cities must evolve to thrive.

I am not sure about Rotterdam but I know in the other Cities I have mentioned a pragmatic decision was made to protect historic buildings by specially designating areas where unrestricted skyscrapers could be built. In Rome its the EUR, in Paris its La Defence. You may be able to tell us the name but on the outskirts of Amsterdam there is a district with numerous skyscrapers which has the effect of soaking up much of the commercial demand leaving the historic centre intact.

This SHOULD have been the purpose of the docklands....but of course the buildings were given a maximum parapet height of 6 floors resulting in pent up demand forcing the development of historical areas......of course An Taisce or ABP didn't bat an eyelid once the developments were lowrise.
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Old March 1st, 2012, 08:11 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by thebig C View Post
Keano, whilst I don't agree with your carpet bombing suggestion!!...I do think you have made a very cojent point. Mature European cities such as Rottdedam, Amsterdam, Paris etc recognise that cities must evolve to thrive.

I am not sure about Rotterdam but I know in the other Cities I have mentioned a pragmatic decision was made to protect historic buildings by specially designating areas where unrestricted skyscrapers could be built. In Rome its the EUR, in Paris its La Defence. You may be able to tell us the name but on the outskirts of Amsterdam there is a district with numerous skyscrapers which has the effect of soaking up much of the commercial demand leaving the historic centre intact.

This SHOULD have been the purpose of the docklands....but of course the buildings were given a maximum parapet height of 6 floors resulting in pent up demand forcing the development of historical areas......of course An Taisce or ABP didn't bat an eyelid once the developments were lowrise.

Also there is some height restriction in Paris that no building can be bigger then the Eiffel Tower but I am not sure if it is true.
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Old March 2nd, 2012, 07:44 PM   #58
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Also there is some height restriction in Paris that no building can be bigger then the Eiffel Tower but I am not sure if it is true.
I heard that too. Not sure if its a myth but presumably it only applys inside the strict City limits. In paris remarkably few modern buildings were built in the central area post WWII, the one glaring examply is La Tour Montparnasse which was built on the site of the ornate railway station:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_Montparnasse

http://www.tourmontparnasse56.com/#/tour/photos

Due (partly) to criticism of this building it was decided to locate all new commercial developments into an area now known are La Defence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense

This now attracts most of the Citys commercial demand leaving the historic centre to be preserved!.......Kind of what the Docklands was supposed to do for Dublin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 12:50 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by thebig C View Post
I heard that too. Not sure if its a myth but presumably it only applys inside the strict City limits. In paris remarkably few modern buildings were built in the central area post WWII, the one glaring examply is La Tour Montparnasse which was built on the site of the ornate railway station:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_Montparnasse

http://www.tourmontparnasse56.com/#/tour/photos

Due (partly) to criticism of this building it was decided to locate all new commercial developments into an area now known are La Defence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_D%C3%A9fense

This now attracts most of the Citys commercial demand leaving the historic centre to be preserved!.......Kind of what the Docklands was supposed to do for Dublin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
La Defence is lovely looking and fits into Paris well. They really did do a good job down there in my opinion.
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Old March 3rd, 2012, 08:11 AM   #60
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Gas how Frank McDonald and Co. sing praises for Liberty Hall, yet want Hawkins House to go.

With a lick of paint, Hawkins House could look just as bad as Liberty Hall, don't you think?

So, I wonder what the real issue is with these people about the demolition of Liberty Hall. Is it because it will be replaced by a taller building?

Maybe Dublin will get its first 17+ storey building before we all die of complete boredom and old age.

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