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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:00 PM   #81
spacetweek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47 View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't get built the way they want it to. It will be a joke if ABP do something stupid at this point. They just will never let a building of little height be built here. This building isn't even big compared to others. I mean they are calling this a skyscraper when you would see a building in London almost twice the size and it wouldn't be called a skyscraper. This city is a joke and its really sad that we have fools like ABP in charge.
You can't compare to London. Highrise is defined as any building that is significantly higher than the average building height in the neighbourhood. Any building taller than that average is tall. Liberty Hall is certainly a tall building by that measure and the Custom House is a charming building that should not be second-bested by anything nearby.
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Originally Posted by CelticCub View Post
Going against the grain slightly but I would be against this development - in a perfect world/Dublin there would be no Liberty Hall. In my mind it is poorly positioned as a stand alone 'sky scraper'...I am not against high rise and I think the proposed building is well designed but imo developments like this should be in an area where there is sufficent development land around the building to have a cluster of similar sized buildings...the current location means this will never happen given the volume of historical sites and listed buildings, meaning the new build (much like the old) will stick out and dominate the skyline. We all know the DDDA missed the boat on this one but I still believe buildings such as this should be in areas such as the IFSC, or alternatively perhaps around Heuston station....still leaves us with the problem of the old ugly Liberty Hall though!
Best post of the thread. I actually completely agree with you.
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Old July 3rd, 2012, 03:03 PM   #82
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Take Auckland, for example. New Zealand is a lot like Ireland in terms of population, culture and economics. Auckland is its premier city and is virtually equal in population with our premier city, Dublin. Dublin's tallest building, Montevetro, wouldn't even make the top 40 tallest buildings in Auckland. If the DDDA had done its job properly, there would be at least 20 buildings in the Docklands to compare with the Auckland edifices in terms of height. New Liberty Hall would register at a 15th in the Auckland list.
Nope. New Zealand is not at all similar to Ireland. From a planning perspective, it is New World - low-rise suburbia with a high-rise downtown. European cities are not built that way.
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Old July 4th, 2012, 03:25 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
Nope. New Zealand is not at all similar to Ireland. From a planning perspective, it is New World - low-rise suburbia with a high-rise downtown. European cities are not built that way.
Even allowing for the variation of planning perspectives, we shouldn't have a situation where the tallest building in Dublin doesn't make the top 40 in Auckland. It illustrates a pervasive phobia about tall buildings which besets this city.

In any case, I decided to look at a European city of comparable size to Dublin to see how Montevetro would fare there. I chose Copenhagen as it is a similar-sized capital city of a country with a similar population and size. It turns out Montevetro would just make it into the top 10 in Copenhagen.

Also, the Custom House isn't second-bested by Liberty Hall nearby. Even the current Liberty Hall with all its failings is a great foil to the building. They contrast each other each other well and present a great picture postcard of the city as the photo below demonstrates;

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Old July 5th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #84
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Angry

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Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
Liberty Hall is certainly a tall building by that measure and the Custom House is a charming building that should not be second-bested by anything nearby.
I can´t imagine The Custom House will be second-bested by anything this side of the loop line, such is the overall dreadful quality of its neighbouring buildings. A fresh new building in the centre of the city of high quality and of a decent height will (imo) have a positive knock on effect on the rest of the city. If anything - we probably need taller building even moreso than similiar sized cities in Europe, purely so that they might actually serve to take the focus off the endless blocks of ugly low rise that make up most of the city. Liberty Hall´s days are numbered. It´s never really been properly maintained nor shown much attention. If Dublin was choc full of buildings of a similiar architectural value to The Custom House I´d perhaps be making a different argument but sadly that´s not the case. It´s one fresh and new mid-rise in a sea of boring, unremarkable and forgettable architecture. What´s the big deal?
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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by spacetweek View Post
Nope. New Zealand is not at all similar to Ireland. From a planning perspective, it is New World - low-rise suburbia with a high-rise downtown. European cities are not built that way.
Actually I think you are both correct to some degree. Auckland is a new World City with a planned primarily grid pattern downtown, and absolutely no medieval heritage. However, unlike Australian and Canadian cities which experienced highrise at a similar stage to America, Auckland remained very lowrise. In fact their first highrise was completed in about 1966, only a year after Liberty Hall, it was 20 stories but only about 70m or so. Even by the early 1980s,whilst thehad been some infilling by 12-15 storey buildings, their tallest was only a comparitavly low 87m. It wasn't until the late 80s/early 90s that the 100m mark was breached. There was a flurry of activity in the late 1990s which produced Aucklands current tallest buildings.



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Old July 8th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Dvblvnia View Post
Even allowing for the variation of planning perspectives, we shouldn't have a situation where the tallest building in Dublin doesn't make the top 40 in Auckland. It illustrates a pervasive phobia about tall buildings which besets this city.

In any case, I decided to look at a European city of comparable size to Dublin to see how Montevetro would fare there. I chose Copenhagen as it is a similar-sized capital city of a country with a similar population and size. It turns out Montevetro would just make it into the top 10 in Copenhagen.

Also, the Custom House isn't second-bested by Liberty Hall nearby. Even the current Liberty Hall with all its failings is a great foil to the building. They contrast each other each other well and present a great picture postcard of the city as the photo below demonstrates;

Intrestingly, despite having quite a few tall buildings Copenhagen still retains a distinct low-rise feel. Although try telling that to all the anti-highrise brigade.

Have a look at the Nordic and Baltic forum...there are some great pics of historical Copenhagen and some fabulous new developments which make the Dublin Docklands look positively unimaginative!
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Old July 19th, 2012, 02:55 AM   #87
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Quote:
Decision on Liberty Hall demolition will shape city skyline

FRANK McDONALD


Thu, Jul 19, 2012


The new Liberty Hall (artist's impression, above), designed by the union's architects, Gilroy McMahon, would rise to 93.65m (307ft) - more than half as tall again as the existing tower - and would also be 1.5 times wider. In other words, considerably higher and more bulky.

Dublin’s first skyscraper is either a modernist icon or no longer fit for purpose, depending on who you talk to

A SKETCH of Liberty Hall featured on the sidelines of a recent workshop on what should be done with the Central Bank. “What about me?” it asked rather plaintively.

Indeed, the fate of Dublin’s first “skyscraper” is now firmly in the hands of An Bord Pleanála.

Following a seven-day oral hearing, the arguments for and against its proposed demolition and replacement by a much larger building will certainly be clear to the board’s planning inspector, Mary Crowley. They also deserve a wider audience.

The passion is all on one side – those who want Liberty Hall to be retained as an “icon” of the emergence of modern Ireland.

On the other side is Siptu’s determination to dispense with a building it regards as no longer fit for purpose and erect a new tower on the site.

The new Liberty Hall, designed by the union’s architects, Gilroy McMahon, would rise to 93.65m (307ft) – more than half as tall again as the existing tower – and would also be 1.5 times wider. In other words, considerably higher and more bulky.

Dublin City Council approved the proposed replacement, having stated in its development plan that height limitations “may be set aside or relaxed” in considering plans for the redevelopment of Liberty Hall, given its “national, historic, social and cultural status” in Ireland.

The architects have made two stabs at it. Their first scheme was withdrawn in February 2011, after it failed to excite the city planners.

The latest proposal, which is even taller by six metres, was approved last February, despite substantial objections.

“The [existing] building doesn’t work . . . for many reasons. Some of these are minor and can be repaired. Some are incurable and cannot,” said Siptu’s architect, Des McMahon, referring to the “excessive” amount of space taken up by its service core (lifts, stairs, toilets, etc).

Using the 60m tower as a precedent, Siptu now wants to create a new “landmark” on the Dublin skyline.

Yet as objector Valerin O’Shea pointed out, three separate assessments of its visual impact commissioned by the union offered widely divergent conclusions.

It was also shown that Siptu needs less than half of the 6,800sq m (73,200sq ft) of office space in the new building. And despite claims that its height and bulk were driven by “design imperatives”, it is clear that the surplus space is for speculative letting or even sale.

The union is on record as saying that “the new building would contain additional office space, which would be available for sale or leasing, to generate revenue and offset costs”.

In effect, Siptu needs it only for the purpose of capitalising its value to raise funds for the scheme.

Planning consultants RPS described the rental income from surplus office space and revenue from admission tickets to the “Skydeck” and heritage centre as “vital components of the self-financing equation” that would “guarantee overall financial sustainability”.

O’Shea calculated that surplus space in the tower would account for at least 10 of its 17 floors of offices.

“Permission has been sought and given for a 22-storey building, 10 storeys of which are not required ,” she told the Bord Pleanála oral hearing.

“The reality is that the needs of Siptu could be accommodated in a building a small fraction of the size,” she said. “Even if the design were as magnificent as the Taj Mahal . . . it is simply vastly over-scaled for such a setting and its effect can be nothing but incongruous.”

But Des McMahon defended the need to make a strong architectural statement for “the last building terminating the northern Liffey Quays as they visually slam into the robust industrial Loop Line overhead railway bridge and the aggressive cross-flow traffic below”.

Liberty Hall itself is incongruous, particularly in relation to the Custom House. But as Docomomo, which is dedicated to conserving modern movement architecture, argued: “More than any other building of the modern era, Liberty Hall has embedded itself in the collective consciousness of the city, even the nation, and our sense of identity.”

The Irish branch of Docomomo had to withdraw its objection to the proposed demolition after it received a solicitor’s letter on behalf of conservation consultant David Slattery alleging gross defamation.

But the Docomomo submission – with the offending material removed – was included in an appeal made in a personal capacity by An Taisce heritage officer Ian Lumley, who argued that a taller building was unjustified as Siptu could meet its needs by refurbishing Liberty Hall.

“This impressively researched submission constitutes a significant argument in justifying the retention and refurbishment of the existing building and rebuttal of the arguments made by the applicants’ consultants,” he told the hearing.

Liberty Hall, designed by engineer-architect Desmond Rea O’Kelly, was commended in the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland Gold Medal awards for buildings of the period (1965-1967).

It shared this honour with Carroll’s, on Grand Parade – now a protected structure.

Rea O’Kelly, who died in February 2011, was delighted by Dublin’s first Open House weekend in 2006, when long queues formed for the first opportunity in years to visit the building, including its observation deck.

His main concern was that Siptu wouldn’t demolish it before he died.

Sadly, it is now a dilapidated building. After a car-bomb exploded on the street in December 1972, blowing out many of its windows, a reflective silver film was applied to the replacement glass; this had the unfortunate effect of removing the translucent quality it originally had.

Later, mosaic tiles on the edge beams of each floor were consolidated with mastic, making the tower look dreary and grey.

As O’Toole noted, however, both of these changes are reversible, if there was a will to refurbish Liberty Hall rather than demolish and replace it.

Lumley maintains that the building could be made more functional with open-plan floors, natural ventilation and a new glazing system to reduce solar gain.

Alternatively, if Siptu were to relocate elsewhere, it could be converted for residential use, with two flats per floor.

Dublin City Council’s former chief planning officer, Pat McDonnell, believes that An Bord Pleanála’s decision will “make or break” Dublin’s skyline.

And Valerin O’Shea says she would “throw in the towel” if the board grants permission because of the precedent this would set.

© 2012 The Irish Times
...
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Old July 19th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #88
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If I was on ABP and heard that that witch Valerin O'Shea would throw in the towel if PP was granted I'd recommend doubling the height. Only glanced at the article - never read anything by Mad Frankie.
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Old July 20th, 2012, 04:16 PM   #89
saoró...
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When is the decision due?
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Old July 20th, 2012, 08:56 PM   #90
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When is the decision due?
According to ABP website its the 31st October. They'll probably reject it or scale it down, that's what they always do!!!!
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 05:46 PM   #91
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Anyone seen this? - http://www.siptu.ie/media/webcam/

Unreal webcam.
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 06:01 PM   #92
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Mother of God, is that... is that sunshine?
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Old August 2nd, 2012, 08:33 PM   #93
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That webcam is brilliant, thanks for sharing plank007!
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 12:38 AM   #94
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That webcam is class. Cheers for telling us Plank
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Old October 31st, 2012, 08:24 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JD47
That webcam is class. Cheers for telling us Plank
Decision is due today on this according to ABP website.
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Old October 31st, 2012, 08:26 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by JD47
That webcam is class. Cheers for telling us Plank
Decision is due on this today according to ABP website.
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Old November 1st, 2012, 06:53 PM   #97
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I bet anything that it will be rejected because of height.
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Old November 1st, 2012, 09:16 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by JD47
I bet anything that it will be rejected because of height.
More than likely JD. Can't see them granting permission
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 01:02 AM   #99
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Did it pass?!
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 01:49 AM   #100
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Did it pass?!
Still nothing up on An Bord Pleanala's website. Wouldn't be surprised if they have delayed their decision!!!
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