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Old January 15th, 2013, 12:22 AM   #21
the golden vision
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Is that photo of Granby? What I remember of the Welsh Sts is they are pretty mean. I'm concerned about the reduction in density and in all likelihood further depopulation of the area. Something that successive 'regeneration' initiatives have contributed to.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 12:40 AM   #22
Pablo Diablo
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Is that photo of Granby? What I remember of the Welsh Sts is they are pretty mean. I'm concerned about the reduction in density and in all likelihood further depopulation of the area. Something that successive 'regeneration' initiatives have contributed to.
The first photo is Voelas Street. The second is a new build that was built this year in Granby.

It looks as if the surviving terraces in Granby will be restored. Thank God someone in the council saw sense!!!


I'm a bit of an amateur designer/planner (I'm sure you all know by now!), I've designed a four bedroom house that is dense while spacious and (including gardens) only takes up a 6m x 15m plot (you could fit around 40 on one of the Welsh streets, for example). Bigger plots (6m x 20m) get driveways. I won't post it because I'm sure no one cares about this stuff but me
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Old January 15th, 2013, 12:50 AM   #23
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The first photo is Voelas Street. The second is a new build that was built this year in Granby.

It looks as if the surviving terraces in Granby will be restored. Thank God someone in the council saw sense!!!


I'm a bit of an amateur designer/planner (I'm sure you all know by now!), I've designed a four bedroom house that is dense while spacious and (including gardens) only takes up a 6m x 15m plot (you could fit around 40 on one of the Welsh streets, for example). Bigger plots (6m x 20m) get driveways. I won't post it because I'm sure no one cares about this stuff but me
Thanks. Post it and send it to the city's planning dept too
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Old January 15th, 2013, 01:50 AM   #24
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Thanks. Post it and send it to the city's planning dept too
Ha thanks. It currently only exists on paper - I'll redraw it in Photoshop one day
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Old January 15th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #25
Dingle All The Way
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Pablo you are so despondant all the time. That new house you posted looks alright. You constantly describe things as being council houses when they are not, Is council house an insult in your vernacular? The Welsh streets is a no go wasteland at the moment. There are loads of areas in Liverpool with dense terraced streets, I live in one. They are not all being replaced. Of course Liverpool can be a vibrant European city without the Welsh Streets.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #26
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People will always want a car though. Public transport is vile.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 08:41 PM   #27
Dingle All The Way
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People will always want a car though. Public transport is vile.

I disagree. Public transport is not vile. I have never had any ambition to own a car. I lived in London for about 7 years and I only knew one person who even had a car. The public transport is much better there than here I'll agree but vile?! A little over the top.

"A civilised society is not one where the poor own cars, it's one where the rich use public transport." - John Lennon.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #28
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Pablo you are so despondant all the time. That new house you posted looks alright. You constantly describe things as being council houses when they are not, Is council house an insult in your vernacular? The Welsh streets is a no go wasteland at the moment. There are loads of areas in Liverpool with dense terraced streets, I live in one. They are not all being replaced. Of course Liverpool can be a vibrant European city without the Welsh Streets.
Sorry, I should clarify. I'm talking of a 'council house' from a design and planning perspective. Typically small, boxy houses that totally lack character and detail - usually with a black tarmac driveway and black tarmac roads and sidewalks (it's not a pavement if it's not paved ). And by 'council estate' I mean an area made up entirely of this type of housing where the majority of residents are low income families.

These are the bottom rung of the property ladder. People don't aspire to live in these houses and so the areas remain ghettos of deprivation. It's just ridiculous that 10 mins walk from the vibrancy, diversity and mixed communities of the Hope Street area (for example), you find yourself here. And literally just behind the beautiful and elegant (and gentrifying) Prince Avenue and Prince Park is this. The inner city should be the best place to live in the city! Toxteth, Granby, Edge Hill, Vauxhall etc should all be vibrant and diverse neighbourhoods with a mixture of attractive family houses and apartments with bustling local high streets. Wavertree is becoming like this around High Street - I highly doubt that'd be happening if the area was mainly council houses, crumbling boarded up terraces and devoid of business opportunities.

On a slight tangent but still on the subject of a 'council house', Local Authority or Housing Association owned homes should be encouraged. Some people don't want to buy property, some people can't for various reasons (maybe they don't plan on staying for more than a few years and don't want the hassle of a sale) - there should be the option of renting a nice house or flat in a nice area from a Housing Association or Local Authority - effectively a council house. This is quite common in Germany where around 50% of people rent their home - a lot from an association. It makes renting a much more attractive option when you don't have to deal with private buy-to-let landlords who have a reputation for being greedy and dishonest.


Now, back on the subject of design. I just seriously cannot fathom why the city planners don't specify more attractive designs. Victorian and Georgian housing has many, many advantages of modernist housing. They're architecturally more simple yet (usually) much more attractive. They take up less land and yet are more spacious. Surveys have shown that people prefer the designs of Victorian and Georgian housing (that's why middle class new build estates look like pastiche Georgian toytowns) so I simply cannot understand why they insist on building ugly boxes! I'll post my design as soon as I get around to drawing it digitally - I'm sure no one really cares though


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People will always want a car though. Public transport is vile.
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I disagree. Public transport is not vile. I have never had any ambition to own a car. I lived in London for about 7 years and I only knew one person who even had a car. The public transport is much better there than here I'll agree but vile?! A little over the top.

"A civilised society is not one where the poor own cars, it's one where the rich use public transport." - John Lennon.
Dingle, you are completely correct. The world does not have the resources for every adult to use cars. Not to mention the huge problems with road capacity, parking issues and pollution.

For a British city, Liverpool is very lucky to have Merseyrail but, other than a few places/lines, it's very difficult and expensive to expand. We're even luckier still to have the legacy of John Brodie's avenues that cross the suburbs with tramway reservations.

Expanded Merseyrail and trams (along with proper ticket, route and timetable integration with buses) would easily give us the best public transport network outside of London... maybe even bettering London when factoring in the relative sizes of the two cities.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #29
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I get the bus daily. Its usually 10 mins late sometimes more, there is never enough seats, its full of kids running riot, people stink of weed, they go all around the world (It would take me 10 mins max in a car to get home from work whereas it takes 30-40 mins on the bus).

The train is marginally better but they tend to be late and if there is an issue on the tracks then the whole service is delayed or even at a standstill. It is overpriced as well for the service it offers.

I would love public transport to be good but its awful. London is different. Nothing in Liverpool compares to the tube and until it does then there is no comparison.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #30
Dingle All The Way
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Pablo. Those awful grey 1960's pebble dash things in toxteth look awful. I think the proposed houses are much nicer than that.

Tomo, merseyrail compares directly to the tube, it is a very similar thing just with less frequency. Obviously the bus is not going to be as direct as a car. I thinkweed is a nice smell.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #31
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As if Merseyrail compares to the tube. It would if it linked the whole region but it doesnt even serve East Liverpool.

Im moving again and I will be getting the train to work once again. Cannot wait. When 16 year old kids stink of weed at 8am in the morning it puts the bus into perspective.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 12:29 AM   #32
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London Underground very poorly serves South London.

Buses aren't great but that's because of the congestion on the roads, mostly caused by private vehicles and the fact deregulation has lead to year upon year of well above inflation fare increases and in some situations, a neglect of services. Of course, what Liverpool needs is more rail and tram infrastructure and well as more control on the bus services.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #33
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I dont think the buses are overpriced.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 01:05 AM   #34
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Bully for you but it remains that they've been going up well above inflation for some years now, pretty much like the railways.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 01:57 AM   #35
Dingle All The Way
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A bus ride in Liverpool is similar in price to a bus ride in London. Everything else is much cheaper than London. The bus must be overpriced.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 02:28 AM   #36
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Pablo. Those awful grey 1960's pebble dash things in toxteth look awful. I think the proposed houses are much nicer than that.
The new stuff is the direct descendent of those awful grey 1960s buildings. The planners in the 60s thought those designs were fine.

The 'council estate' is a well proven failure as an urban model. We need to move past it and into a new 21st century model... and I think we need to learn from our Victorian and Georgian ancestors.

If I had my way, Liverpool would be the first British city to abolish the council estate. There'd be no such thing as a 'poor area'. Everywhere would have a mix of housing that's appropriate for the area (tall apartment blocks in the city centre, merging gracefully into tall townhouses, then terraces and then detached houses in suburbia) and that's available for people of all economic backgrounds.


I'd love to live in a dense townhouse (I would hate an 1960s ex-council house or a modern box) within walking distance of the city centre. The only real options for this (excepting finding a million down the back of the couch for a house in Canning ) are Kensington and the southern end of Granby. Even for both, you'd have to walk through some crap and wasteland to get into town. But along with the nice house, I'd like a nice community with some nice local shops and amenities like pubs, parks etc, so that pretty much pushes me out to Aigburth, Sefton Park or Waterloo - all well out of my price range.


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Tomo, merseyrail compares directly to the tube, it is a very similar thing just with less frequency. Obviously the bus is not going to be as direct as a car. I thinkweed is a nice smell.
I think the ideal transport system for a city like Liverpool is a rail service serving the suburbs (Merseyrail), a tram network serving the inner city and inner suburbs and a bus network for shorter, local journeys. All of which need to have integrated ticketing and be under the control of a transport authority.


The reason buses are so crap in Liverpool is because they're operated by private companies and, like all public services that are privately operated, they're run to serve the needs of the shareholders and not the people. I despise Stagecoach as a company because their owner is a bigoted nutbag but I think Arriva offer the worst level of service.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #37
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Arriva knock me sick, dont get me started.

Dingle - A Liverpool day rider is 3.90 and I think thats alright.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 10:05 PM   #38
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£3.50 for a stagecoach, which isn't bad when you consider the fact an adult fare is £1.80 each way...

The tube however, when I was in London I was paying about £8 for a travelcard that lasted a day, that got me unlimited travel in zone 1&2 (probably about as much coverage as our buses). That was for the tube, dlr, buses and others though.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #39
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I liked how you could get the Tube and the bus with an Oyster card myself.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 11:59 PM   #40
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I liked how you could get the Tube and the bus with an Oyster card myself.
You can do the same in Liverpool with Saveaways! All bus operators, Merseyrail, National Rail and ferries! Last I used it, it was cheaper than an Arriva day rider too! Hopefully the Walrus will unify this even better.
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