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Old April 5th, 2017, 04:41 PM   #21
Zanderdad
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The wealthy and privileged vote their class interests, consistently, why would you counsel the working class to do different?
It's an interesting thing, this concept that the Labour Party automatically = working class interests.

I live in a very working class area which comes with its own issues. Ten minutes walk from one of the best grammar schools in the country. Hardly any child from my estate gets to go there. I consider that a problem.

So I had a nice doorstep visit from the local Labour Party candidate. I raised the issue with him. "What are you going to do about that?', I asked. The candidate looked confident he was on comfortable territory. He went on a spiel about working to raise the standards of the other schools in the area (schools which we all know are way off the pace).

I told him, that's all very nice, but I want my child to go in the grammar thank you very much. I'm a working class parent but that doesn't stop me wanting the best for my child. From aspiring for the best. Which is why we worked our butts off and got him in. And I want the same for other families on this estate. So what are you going to do about that?

The candidate smiled thinly. He seemed confused. He went back into his anti-grammar spiel again.

This just won't do I told him. Do you know the grammar schools in Birmingham have pushed their teachers out into the community to help lower paid families see what's possible? To make them understand they have a stake in the best schools, just as much as anyone else. Do you know they have lowered the application standard in some poorer areas to stop the middle classes taking over. Needless to say, he hadn't heard about it. It didn't fit his paradigm.

My conclusion. Beware of people or parties who tell you they speak for your class interests, without doing anything to understand your issues. Labour's weak spot has always been aspiration. They lack the imagination to address it. Just write a cheque. That's their solution to everything.

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Old April 5th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #22
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I think Post Brexit we need someone who can really push Liverpool's new position as a gateway to world trade. I usually vote Lib Dem but they are burying their head in the sand hoping to reverse it. A representative of Merseyside needs to realise that we are on the right side of the country again, push that US trade deal, push a Canadian deal, get the loads coming into the port. This is the new reality, no moaning, no whining, just action in our best interests. The pound is low, British goods are cheaper, contracts should be more competitive for Cammell Laird etc...

At the same time pushing London for our fair share of investment funds.
The problem we have is just who this representative of Liverpool city region will be.
Do any of the candidates have the talent to do as you say?
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Old April 5th, 2017, 04:46 PM   #23
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as a total outsider I do respect people´s democratic choices, that said I read rotheram´s manifesto and felt dispirited to say the least as I found no vision, no energy nor real conviction to make this metro area britain´s number one once again, his plans lack ambition and boldness, they are not sexy nor engaging specially for the new generation of liverpudlians his great aims or ideas do not look to the future with confidence, he doesn´t look to be the mayor of an imaginative, green, cultivated, socially fair, learning junkie and sports and socialising mad world class metro area
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Old April 5th, 2017, 04:46 PM   #24
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It's an interesting thing, this concept that the Labour Party automatically = working class interests.

I live in a very working class area which comes with its own issues. Ten minutes walk from one of the best grammar schools in the country. Hardly any child from my estate gets to go there. I consider that a problem.

So I had a nice doorstep visit from the local Labour Party candidate. I raised the issue with him. "What are you going to do about that?', I asked. The candidate looked confident he was on comfortable territory. He went on a spiel about working to raise the standards of the other schools in the area (schools which we all know are way off the pace).

I told him, that's all very nice, but I want my child to go in the grammar thank you very much. I'm a working class parent but that doesn't stop me wanting the best for my child. From aspiring for the best. Which is why we worked our butts off and got him in. And I want the same for other families on this estate. So what are you going to do about that?

The candidate smiled thinly. He seemed confused. He went back into his anti-grammar spiel again.

This just won't do I told him. Do you know the grammar schools in Birmingham have pushed their teachers out into the community to help lower paid families see what's possible? Do make them understand they have a stake in the best schools, just as much as anyone else. Do you know they have lowered the application standard in some poorer areas to stop the middle classes taking over. Needless to say, he hadn't heard about it. It didn't fit his paradigm.

My conclusion. Beware of people or parties who tell you they speak for your class interests, without doing anything to understand your issues. Labour's weak spot has always been aspiration. They lack the imagination to address it. Just write a cheque. That's their solution to everything.
This is the problem for the Labour party. The entire basis of their support has crumbled-they are the LABOUR party, but no one does manual labour for a job anymore, and Labour as it is currently constituted is effectively a far left pressure group run from Islington. I do not expect the Conservatives to win, but i do expect them to get more than people realise-there is a reason that the Tories are averaging more than 14% leads over Labour in the poll, and most relevant, most of that strong support is now coming from the North of England in former Labour strong holds.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 04:56 PM   #25
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The Labour party is adrift and rudderless.....its historical constituency has largely abandoned it, and it is no longer clear what, or who, it stands for. What is ‘working class’ these days; what does it even mean? Many people who once upon a time would have seen themselves as ‘respectable working class’ or similar, now see themselves as middle class. At one point you were working class if you worked with your hands in a manual role, and if you worked in an office you were at least lower middle class. These labels, however, all seem pretty meaningless in today’s society. To a Marxist ideologue things are still pretty clear, and as they have always been, I’m sure; but I’m definitely uncertain about who now best represents the interests of this city.

I’m thinking it may be best to learn to swim with the current flow of the tide, rather than fight against it.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #26
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The optimism evident on this thread seems to be contagious. Hope it materialises however, the GB£ took another hit against the US$ yesterday. And the UK will get a "Free Trade" deal with Uncle Sam to it's detriment. The US has a free trade deal NAFTA, with Mexico and Canada and is giving notice of it's intention to renegotiate with Mexico, which has a surplus in trade with the US. Trumps avowed and oft spoken aim is to "put America first" in any future trade agreements.

A weak currency is a two-way street and not exclusively beneficial. The UK being a non resource nation needs to buy it's raw material in US$ and with a weak currency has to pay more for that raw material increasing the price of it's exports and distance to profitability. And remember, the object of any commercial enterprise is profits, if UK corporations are forced to purchase raw material with a weakened currency, one of two things needs to happen. 1.) The cost of manufacturing in the UK needs to be pared (which means an attack on wages) or 2.) The product be produced in a low wage jurisdiction.
So, for the British worker, it's a "Catch Twenty-two" situation.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 05:07 PM   #27
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Have to say I’m seriously considering voting for the Conservative candidate. If I do it will certainly be a first for me....
Whilst not an outstanding candidate Caldeira is probably the best. The fact that he's not a politician might help.

On a simple left-right axis, he's keen to point out he's a One Nation sort of Conservative. I doubt that there is much to separate him politically from the right-wing Labour party politicians that run the city council and surrounding boroughs or the local Lib Dems for that matter.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 05:10 PM   #28
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It's an interesting thing, this concept that the Labour Party automatically = working class interests.

I live in a very working class area which comes with its own issues. Ten minutes walk from one of the best grammar schools in the country. Hardly any child from my estate gets to go there. I consider that a problem.

So I had a nice doorstep visit from the local Labour Party candidate. I raised the issue with him. "What are you going to do about that?', I asked. The candidate looked confident he was on comfortable territory. He went on a spiel about working to raise the standards of the other schools in the area (schools which we all know are way off the pace).

I told him, that's all very nice, but I want my child to go in the grammar thank you very much. I'm a working class parent but that doesn't stop me wanting the best for my child. From aspiring for the best. Which is why we worked our butts off and got him in. And I want the same for other families on this estate. So what are you going to do about that?

The candidate smiled thinly. He seemed confused. He went back into his anti-grammar spiel again.

This just won't do I told him. Do you know the grammar schools in Birmingham have pushed their teachers out into the community to help lower paid families see what's possible? To make them understand they have a stake in the best schools, just as much as anyone else. Do you know they have lowered the application standard in some poorer areas to stop the middle classes taking over. Needless to say, he hadn't heard about it. It didn't fit his paradigm.

My conclusion. Beware of people or parties who tell you they speak for your class interests, without doing anything to understand your issues. Labour's weak spot has always been aspiration. They lack the imagination to address it. Just write a cheque. That's their solution to everything.
Seeing as you didn't indicate a "conclusion". Might I ask what would be your option, if any? I know voting for a party that has nothing in common with you own condition or aspiration is the equivalent of the chickens voting for Colonel Sanders. As the electorate in the rust belt states of the US is now, to their detriment, finding out. Remember, it wasn't the workers who decided that it is easier for them to be drawing social welfare, it was capitalism and their governments facilitating those corporations in their quest for higher profits at the expense of those workers. Logical really, if a corporation can move off-shore and manufacture at a lower cost then resell those goods back into their home market at an increased profit, why wouldn't they do it? Expecting their governments to not act in the best interests of themselves and their corporate benefactors is like expecting crocodiles not to eat the migrating wilder beast.

PS:The Canadian giant Bombardier negotiated investments from both the Canadian and Quebec governments totalling $2 billion dollars in taxpayers money, because, they said, they would be unable to compete in the market. The first thing they have done (todays news on MSNBC) is to award all their executives increases in pay and massive bonuses. This is not an isolated occurrence with this corporation. It happens every five years and why wouldn't governments reward their benefactors with our money? We don't punish them for doing so.
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Last edited by Bogeyana; April 5th, 2017 at 05:19 PM.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 05:13 PM   #29
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Marvellous how 10 months of uncertainty can be extrapolated into a lifetime of sunny optimism. I'm no better placed to say what will happen than anyone else, but what if these deals don't materialise? It's like Robert Redford looking nervously at the camera at the end of 'Three Days of the Condor' - 'What if they don't publish ?' 'They'll publish ....'
To be fair, no one has guaranteed sunny uplands. It has been suggested only that there is the possibility of there being benefits to Liverpool out of Brexit (as as well as the downsides). After all, Britain entering the EEC in the first place was calamitous for the metropolitan economy. I fear that even if the benefits are their to be had the London government will still find some way of diverting them elsewhere.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 05:27 PM   #30
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The optimism evident on this thread seems to be contagious. Hope it materialises however, the GB£ took another hit against the US$ yesterday. And the UK will get a "Free Trade" deal with Uncle Sam to it's detriment. .
There is a world of difference between NAFTA and any potential US-UK deal; for a start: one of the reasons Trump is in favour of one with us, and deeply dislikes Mexican involvement in NAFTA, plus withdrew from TTIP, wasnt because of anything that would prove problematic for us-it was the not unreasonable concerns that putting high wealth economies like the US, on or near the same level as low wealth economies like Mexico, encourages jobs to go to the cheaper places-which they undoubtedly do.

That concerns doesnt really exist regarding the US and the UK, or even the US and Canada part of NAFTA, because they are of comparable wealth levels, and share many of the same institutional frameworks (most crucially, the Common Law). None of this means both sides wont pursue their interests intently, but broadly speaking, an Anglo American deal with benefit both sides because there are relatively few contentious issues to derail it.

Frankly, if the NAFTA countries reform their agreement sufficiently before Brexit, it would probably make sense for the UK to petition for membership, as a pre existing structure will offer considerably less uncertainty, and include a developing country the UK has been courting heavily in recent years, and two established economic and military partners of the UK
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Old April 5th, 2017, 06:14 PM   #31
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There is a world of difference between NAFTA and any potential US-UK deal; for a start: one of the reasons Trump is in favour of one with us, and deeply dislikes Mexican involvement in NAFTA, plus withdrew from TTIP, wasnt because of anything that would prove problematic for us-it was the not unreasonable concerns that putting high wealth economies like the US, on or near the same level as low wealth economies like Mexico, encourages jobs to go to the cheaper places-which they undoubtedly do.
That, in case you haven't noticed, is the nature of capitalist globalisation. Trump is only saying what the desperate in Appalachia and the Rust Belt want to hear.
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That concerns doesnt really exist regarding the US and the UK, or even the US and Canada part of NAFTA, because they are of comparable wealth levels, and share many of the same institutional frameworks (most crucially, the Common Law).
Let's look at the "common law" shall we? The US has a totally different interpretation of the "common law" than does any Commonwealth country. Examples abound; different jury size; apart from the 'Supreme Court', elected judges; designation of corporations as "citizens" entities with the same rights and privileges of citizens; and the totally unjust "Grand Jury" system.
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None of this means both sides wont pursue their interests intently, but broadly speaking, an Anglo American deal with benefit both sides because there are relatively few contentious issues to derail it.
Would you agree that; In every bilateral negotiated deal it is proven that, the weaker partner is at a distinct disadvantage. An example with NAFTA is in the cross border trade of softwood lumber. The Canadians can/do produce lumber cheaper, because they are more efficient, have an abundance of the raw material and it cost less to harvest those tress than does the US. The US corporations lobbied their government to impose countervailing duties on Canadian lumber, which they did, claiming that the lower price of Canadian lumber was due tantamount to a subsidy. The Canadians went to the NAFTA arbitration facility and won. The US refused to accept the decision and took the case to the WTO court, which they again lost. They still refused to comply which forced Canada to make a settlement which allowed the US lumber industry to keep the illegal "duty" and distribute it to the industry. Canada was forced, in order to maintain some sort of access to the US market, agree to limiting their access to the US market. A classic example of "might being wrong but winning anyway".
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Frankly, if the NAFTA countries reform their agreement sufficiently before Brexit, it would probably make sense for the UK to petition for membership, as a pre existing structure will offer considerably less uncertainty, and include a developing country the UK has been courting heavily in recent years, and two established economic and military partners of the UK
Not trying to be provocative, but just what does the UK make that North America might want to buy. We have the worlds largest aircraft and arms industry, Jaguar maybe but, again it is a small market by comparison. I was born in the UK and I wouldn't own either a Jaguar or a Land-Rover. My "luxury" vehicle of choice is a domestic as is my SUV and my seven-seater is also domestically made. All built not far from where I live actually. And our automobile industry dwarfs even the combined European industry's output. I do buy British cheeses (Cheshire/Lancashire/Cheddar/Wensleydale/Stilton/Caerphilly etc.,) preserves, pickles, and a few other food items. And those items carry a premium price tag due to transportation costs. (We still cannot purchase raw, canned or processed meats from the UK. All victims of the Hoof & Mouth, Mad Cow and Blue Tongue diseases.)

I do, sincerely wish you luck in the future, having a vested interest in your success with me having a very large extended family in the UK. But unfortunately in commerce, like in life it's self, the spoils invariably goes to the strongest.
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Last edited by Bogeyana; April 5th, 2017 at 06:24 PM.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #32
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Regarding the other main parties, the fact that the Lib Dems have picked a 25 year old indicates they have no expectation of winning but by selecting a Knowsley councillor rather than running out one of the old Liverpool city gang, they're hoping on getting votes in the outer boroughs.
I wonder whether they picked someone of the age they did in order to limit his exposure to the fall-out from their disastrous five years in coalition with the Tories? Even now, a few years after the end of the coalition, it's still common to hear people slag off the Lib Dems because of it. (I suspect because they knew what they were getting with the Tories, but expected better of the Lib Dems). Their candidate is young enough that dragging him into that would be unfair so that may help. Of course with his age also comes suggestions of lack of experience, which will cost a few votes, but as you say, they probably don't see a way to win anyway, so what do they have to lose?
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Old April 5th, 2017, 06:49 PM   #33
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^Very little Chris. Insightful point about Cashman's youth allowing him to dodge the Coalition issue. Younger Labour MPs have benefited from being too young to have voted for the Iraq war although you can guess the ones who would have. Cashman might do better than we expect while of course losing. Another thing is that they are using this election as a nice run out for a promising young politician. A few years down the line they might be standing him in general elections. This experience will do him well.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 07:24 PM   #34
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Not in the slightest bit inspired or motivated by the list of candidates from first inspection. I'm determined not to vote on party political lines (what good has blindly voting Labour ever done the city?) so will look into the manifestos and will try to make my choice based on merit. I've never voted Tory in my life but Tony Caldeira has come across well on the odd occasion I've heard him speak. I was hoping for someone inspirational to come and lead the city, possibly even someone from outside politics. Ah well...
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Old April 5th, 2017, 07:43 PM   #35
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Yes, a strong independent would have been a welcome addition but none arrived.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 08:33 PM   #36
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Granada Reports have just advertised a programme tomorrow that is looking at the race to be mayor for the 'Merseyside and Halton Region'.
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Old April 5th, 2017, 08:58 PM   #37
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Granada Reports have just advertised a programme tomorrow that is looking at the race to be mayor for the 'Merseyside and Halton Region'.
Why do the media refuse to call this what it is, which is "The Liverpool City Region". It is starting to get highly irritating
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Old April 5th, 2017, 09:28 PM   #38
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Why do the media refuse to call this what it is, which is "The Liverpool City Region". It is starting to get highly irritating
BBC N.W Tonight name it by its proper name, though!
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Old April 5th, 2017, 09:33 PM   #39
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BBC N.W Tonight name it by its proper name, though!
Seriously, Shocking, I hope everyone at the BBC are OK and sound of mind
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Old April 5th, 2017, 09:36 PM   #40
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for all their importance, buying raw materials do represent a very reduced percentage of total uk imports, a country where manufacturing represents about 12% of total gdp or so. As the first industrial power in history the Uk has also been the first to deindustrialise and today Britain´s strenght lies elsewhere, in banking, insurance services, financials, arts, culture, sports, architecture, software, education, TV, publishing, 20% of the world´s top 100 universities are british, design as well as state of the art, world class electronics, aerospace, pharma etc...the country is the world´s 2nd largest exporter of services and its surplus is massive

nothing to fear really, you just add this structural strenght to the solid values of the british state, the rule of law and a historic lack of violent, terrifying sociopolitical earthquake events, such as those hitting a continent prone of massacres, violence, revolutions, wars and nazism, and have a pretty good looking future

let others work in boring washing machine plants until they die while the world continues to learn and speak english, flocks to the west end or liverpool to enjoy the latest shows, the best museums and parks, classical music concerts and operas and do some shopping as well

nothing but the mighty forces of nature can stop britain´s centuries long intrinsic ingenuity and capacity to reinvent herself...something pretty much feared over the channel by protestant and catholic countries alike

their disrespectful, ugly reaction to brexit, which is a simple, fair, democratic self determination exercise by the people, is just a showcase of their fears, lack of democratic values, lack of respect to democratic values and lack of understanding of what democracy is, which is not something to be surprised of when not to long ago they were acclaiming in their streets and squares the most criminal political leadership the world has ever witnessed
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