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Old February 17th, 2017, 05:11 PM   #2081
00Zy99
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Originally Posted by loefet View Post
What? I don't get the first part at all, do you mean the Sakura and Mizuho's? They will never go any further than Shin-Osaka in my opinion, it would be too much hassle to get them in there and there is no space to have them turn around at Kyoto.
Also with only one quick change (or two if going between to lesser serviced stations) you can get between any two stations west of Tokyo is really excellent in my opinion.
What I'm saying is that adding another pair of tracks between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka would allow the Sakura and Mizuho services to terminate in Kyoto. While there might not be too many people all the way from Kyushu, it would relieve the other services on the Sanyo to an extent.

This certainly would not be enough to merit a new set of tracks on its own, but when you combine it with the Hokuriku services through to Shin-Osaka, then you start to get a case for a new route. The case for capacity from Hokuriku and the case for capacity from Kyushu and Sanyo are mutually supportive.

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The thing I'm saying is that there easily is space for up to 4 more trains/hour for the Hokuriku Shinkansen to squeeze in on that stretch on the Tokaido Shinkansen if they really wanted to, not 6.
Which is why I argued that there should be additional tracks.

Suppose that there are 4-5 trains per hour from Hokuriku. Then give 3-4 trains per hour from Kyushu a chance to terminate in Kyoto to provide better connectivity. And maybe two or three Kodama services from the Sanyo.

That's seven to twelve trains per hour that can use this new route.

And people WOULD ride the Kodama through to Kyoto to avoid dealing with the hassle of getting off of one train and boarding another-the transfer penalty.

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And also I doubt that we will see enough trains to completely fill the Tokaido Shinkansen, to leave absolutely no space what so ever for any additional trains between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka.
They only way that it could happen is if they cut both the Hikari and Kodama services from the Tokaido Shinkansen and only run Nozomi trains, which to be honest won't happen, there will be too much of an uproar from all the smaller towns along the line.
I think that it would be fewer Nozomi and many more Kodama trains that would fill up the Tokaido. That seems to be the plan once the Chuo Shinkansen is completed.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 12:24 PM   #2082
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NHK Documentary about Shinji Sogo "The Pioneer of Shinkansen":

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Old February 18th, 2017, 12:33 PM   #2083
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In the end, the biggest problem for extending the Hokuriku Shinkansen beyond Kyoto to Shin-Osaka is that the Shinkansen line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka is already running at capacity with Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama trains already running on the line.

Like I said earlier, Kyoto Station is well-connected with local trains traversing most of the entire Keihanshin region, what what JR West (local) and Kintetsu connections there and (likely) a future Hankyu connection there, also. Kyoto is important enough a destination that I feel the west end of the Hokuriku Shinkansen at Kyoto will still be quite viable--and it won't require the possibility of having to possibly quad-track the line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka Station (with all its attendant land acquisition and construction costs).

Last edited by sacto7654; February 18th, 2017 at 10:42 PM. Reason: correct wording
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Old February 18th, 2017, 03:34 PM   #2084
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If it can be done, why the heck not?
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Old February 18th, 2017, 06:04 PM   #2085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
In the end, the biggest problem for extending the Hokuriku Shinkansen beyond Kyoto to Shin-Osaka is that the Shinkansen line between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka is already running at capacity with Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama trains already running on the line.
You are denying facts, aren't you. The Tokaido Shinkansen between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka is currently frequented by up to 11 train-pairs per hour on weekdays and 12 at the week-end. With 18 train-pairs per hour possible the line runs at 2/3 of its capacity on the section in question.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #2086
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A) The Tokaido is almost certainly going to demand more service in the near future.

B) JR West will want to avoid the transfer penalty as much as possible.

I'm seeing a new pair of tracks to Shin-Osaka sometime in the next 30 years.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 10:48 PM   #2087
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I'm seeing a new pair of tracks to Shin-Osaka sometime in the next 30 years.
It may not happen. Not if the plans of the Chūō Shinkansen terminating at Shin-Osaka Station come to fruition. That could make it possible to reduce "conventional" Shinkansen traffic between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka Station, which might actually allow the Hokuriku Shinkansen trains to run all the way to Shin-Osaka Station with the successor to the E7/W7 trainset.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 11:03 PM   #2088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacto7654 View Post
It may not happen. Not if the plans of the Chūō Shinkansen terminating at Shin-Osaka Station come to fruition. That could make it possible to reduce "conventional" Shinkansen traffic between Tokyo and Shin-Osaka Station, which might actually allow the Hokuriku Shinkansen trains to run all the way to Shin-Osaka Station with the successor to the E7/W7 trainset.

That is possible. However, I recall seeing plans to fill the extra capacity made available by the absence of Nozomi services by adding many more Kodama services. Its not as though there isn't desire for them.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 04:38 AM   #2089
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As far as I understand it, after the Chuo line comes online, there will be no more Nozomi between those stops. JR Central plans to move all express passengers onto the Maglev. This means that the Tokaido line will essentially turn into Hikari/Kodama service only.

In the end, we can pretty much assume JR West really wants its own set of tracks between Kyoto and Osaka and will push its case for its own tracks. If it has to travel on JR Central tracks between its two lines, it will have to negotiate with them. This means it doesn't have control of its own schedule and will have to use trainsets that JR Central approves, etc.

Simply put, Kyoto and Osaka statins are JR West domain, but with a JR Central line taking a lot of the traffic. I'm sure it wants the ability to run its own trains along its own tracks that it doesn't need to share.

Sure, it may in the end be forced to share the tracks along this corridor... but ideally, JR West doesn't want that.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 05:24 AM   #2090
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If they join the Hokuriku Shinkansen tracks physically with the Tokaido Shinkansen tracks, I think that would be quite historic. As it is, the Shinkansen tracks north of Tokyo are not physically connected to the tracks going south.

This is a silly pipedream but I confess that I am fascinated to see this happen.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 05:26 AM   #2091
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I'm excited too, and a little voice keeps yelling, "It's not a pipe dream!!"
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Old March 7th, 2017, 09:00 AM   #2092
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Hokuriku Shinkansen routing

Pretty big news out last night.
LDP's Shinkansen Project Team has come out with a recommendation for Hokuriku Shinkansen's routing between Kyoto and Shin-Osaka.

http://www.news24.jp/articles/2017/03/06/04355784.html
http://www.kyoto-np.co.jp/top/article/20170307000013
http://tabiris.com/archives/hokuriku-shinkansen-12/

Sorry for all the sources in Japanese. I usually try to keep news from Japanese-only sources in the Japan Forum, but I thought this should go here.

The routing will see the Hokuriku Shinkansen head south from Kyoto Station, skim the city of Kyotanabe (with a station proposed at Matsui-Yamate), and head to Shin-Osaka. So from Tsuruga onwards, Hokuriku Shinkansen will probably have stations at Mihama and Kaminaka before heading straight south in a deep tunnel toward Kyoto Station where it will cross the present Tokaido tracks in a + shape.



The route will follow the dotted blue line.
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Old March 7th, 2017, 05:22 PM   #2093
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Well, hopefully there will be a track connection at Shin-Osaka.
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Old March 7th, 2017, 10:13 PM   #2094
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The connection at Shin-Osaka is a given. That was the entire point of the contentions associated with Hokuriku Shinkansen's routing. JR West did not want the Hokuriku tracks isolated from the rest of its Shinkansen network.
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Old March 8th, 2017, 06:37 AM   #2095
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Looks like it may follow the Kintetsu ROW south to the DainiKeinan Highway ROW.

Also looks like they may have chosen the south route to come as close as possible to serving Nara... without actually entering Nara and dealing with the politics of having to put a station in Nara.
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Old March 8th, 2017, 07:27 AM   #2096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Looks like it may follow the Kintetsu ROW south to the DainiKeinan Highway ROW.

Also looks like they may have chosen the south route to come as close as possible to serving Nara... without actually entering Nara and dealing with the politics of having to put a station in Nara.
Is there a possibility of putting the Chuo Shinkansen's "Nara" station there (if a site hasn't yet been chosen)?

JR West could then put on shuttles like what JR Hokkaido has at Hakodate.
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Old March 8th, 2017, 07:39 AM   #2097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luacstjh98 View Post
Is there a possibility of putting the Chuo Shinkansen's "Nara" station there (if a site hasn't yet been chosen)?



JR West could then put on shuttles like what JR Hokkaido has at Hakodate.


Except that it's not actually IN Nara there.

I somehow doubt they'd want the Nara station so far north... although it may be a reasonable compromise as a station there would be closer to Kyoto.

Ultimately it will depend on what Nara Prefecture and JR Central agree upon and I don't think JR Central is going to build a station at an intermediary station which would be controlled by JR West.... and Nara is likely going to prefer putting the station closer to its population center.

You can see the station in this image ( the little flag ).

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Old March 8th, 2017, 09:16 AM   #2098
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Yes, the last time I saw, Nara Prefecture apparently wanted the Maglev station somewhere around Yamato-Kooriyama, but JR Central wanted it just north of Nara City.

Basically, it's almost a certainty that the station in Mie Prefecture will be in Kameyama, and then it just becomes a question of "What's the shortest route between Kameyama and Osaka without going into Shiga or Kyoto Prefectures?"

Personally, I would love to see a Nara station at Yamato-Saidaiji, but yeah, pipe dream.
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Old March 8th, 2017, 04:02 PM   #2099
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The Hokuriku will likely follow the Daini Kaihin to the flower gardens.

From there, a corridor exists that wouldn't be totally destructive.

It does raise the question of how they intend to clear Hankyu's little mess at Awaji and then swoop down into Shin-Osaka.
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Old March 13th, 2017, 08:49 PM   #2100
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Some history.

1963, Tokaido Shinkansen construction.

Nagoya Station


https://twitter.com/showaspotmegri/s...99830519160833


Tokyo Station



https://twitter.com/showaspotmegri/s...01529977942017
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