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Old January 25th, 2015, 01:04 PM   #9701
DaeguDuke
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I would expect the minimum wage to be raised roughly in line with inflation. Which is not the SNP policy Tanya was talking about. Would I expect a Labour government to switch to the Living Wage in May? Nope. Their current policy is to "strengthen minimum wage" (probably by a few pence) and give tax cuts to any company that pays the living wage. Tax-payers shouldn't be subsidising companies to pay a fair wage but that is Miliband's plan..
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Old January 25th, 2015, 01:17 PM   #9702
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I'd rather tax breaks were given in return for increased wages than just see people laid off following an immediate 20% rise in the NMW. It might be nice to imagine that employers wouldn't reduce their workforce faced with an immediate 20% rise in labour costs but in reality they would, so providing tax incentives is one way to mitigate that.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 04:38 PM   #9703
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if a business model doesn't allow an employer to pay their employees a "living wage" then that business model is built on exploitation. if you can't make enough margin to survive an be profitable after paying a living wage to your cash generators/employees then just perhaps you don't deserve the privilege and luxury of exploiting other peoples skills and labour to generate profit for yourself. and i say this as an employer.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 05:07 PM   #9704
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Fair enough, though probably not much comfort to the newly unemployed person.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 05:46 PM   #9705
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it wasn't intended as any sort of comfort - more a statement of reality.

if an employer can shed 20% of their workforce because government doesn't subsidise that employment through employers tax relief, doesn't that suggest that the employer was never able to support that 20% of their workforce in the first place and that indeed the employer was exploiting their labour in the first place.

i would rather see my taxes help pay to support individuals in search of gainful, perhaps even meaningful (from the individuals perspective), employment than to exploitative employers.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 06:19 PM   #9706
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But you could make that argument about many policies the SNP has too. Why should companies be subsidized with corporation tax cuts or cuts to North sea taxes just to get them to invest and create jobs? They should do it anyway and if their investment plans are not feasible at current tax rates then they don't deserve to have a business anyway.

All very well but such idealism is just going to damage the economy.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 06:41 PM   #9707
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job creation and sustainability of employment are two different things. the economy is not damaged by a "living wage", only individual employers profits are.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 07:36 PM   #9708
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It depends if those profits then go negative, or become so small the business owner packs it in altogether. Once that happens it does affect the economy as all their employees become unemployed.

I think businesses can plan for and cope with regular steady increases in the minimum wage, even if they are above inflation, they can gradually adapt their business model, train people to become more productive thereby justifying extra pay, invest in new plant and processes etc.

But if you're just going to hike their labour costs by 20% overnight they might need some extra support to absorb that such as reductions in costs elsewhere in the business like taxes.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 08:03 PM   #9709
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uh, what?

the point i am making is that any business model built on a requirement for long term wage subsidies being provided by the taxpayer is fundamentally flawed and exploitative. why should the taxpayer subsidise unprofitable private enterprise at the expense of the living standards of employees/cash/tax generators?
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Old January 25th, 2015, 08:26 PM   #9710
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Yes, that's lovely and everything, but just chucking their employees on to the dole overnight isn't going to make anything better. You need to work with employers to get to the stage where they are able to pay significantly higher wages and still remain in business. In some sectors that will require assistance in terms of tax or other measures. Putting them out of business altogether will mean far more lost tax and extra expense to the public purse in terms of benefits.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 08:48 PM   #9711
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no, its not lovely and everything. if a business operates long term with a margin so close to the bone that a reduction in government subsidy toward their wage bill meant it had to fold and 'chuck their employees(/profit generators) on to the dole overnight' then it simply, sadly, isn't a viable business/private profit generating enterprise. i haven't suggested any course of action, merely stating a fact.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 09:30 PM   #9712
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So your proposal with such businesses is what?

A) Help them in some ways so that they can pay higher wages?

B) Just let them fold and watch the dole queue get longer?
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Last edited by Jonesy55; January 25th, 2015 at 09:50 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2015, 11:35 PM   #9713
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Remember that businesses employing people is not a positive thing in itself. Only if that employment properly improves the economy and the lives of their employees would it be so. For example, the employment of millions of people by Walmart could actually have a negative effect as the company does actually depend upon public subsidy for their employees to continue living, and their low wages bring down wages and profits across the local economies in which they operate, with the only people benefiting being the shareholders and executives. Forcing a company like Walmart to pay a living wage might spur them to increase automation, but that automation would be coming anyway regardless of how much they pay, and as they already employ as few people as they can at the moment to keep profits high, if they want to continue making any money whatsoever they're going to have no choice but to pay those essential staff more.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 12:28 AM   #9714
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Well if people move from jobs where the taxpayer is maybe subsidizing 20% of their total income through tax credits etc into unemployment where the taxpayer is subsidizing 100% of their income that isn't going to help matters as far as I can see.
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Old January 26th, 2015, 02:42 AM   #9715
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But if you're just going to hike their labour costs by 20% overnight they might need some extra support to absorb that such as reductions in costs elsewhere in the business like taxes.
I don't think anyone was literally suggesting that on day one of a new government the minimum wage would jump 20%. Something like inflation+4% every year for the government term would work. Gives employers long enough to plan and deal with the wage increases, last time minimum wage was increased it was with 6months notice.

It should be noted that businesses have been dealing with similar levels of cost inflation for goods over the last few years. If they can deal with prices for raw materials increasing without tax-payer subsidies then they can deal with labour costs increasing too. Especially as business/corporation taxes have been falling over the last few decades. Only ~2.5% of UK workers are on minimum wage, this would only affect relatively few jobs but it would make a huge difference to the working poor who are currently turning to food banks in record numbers.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 10:29 AM   #9716
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Murphy hints at standing down as an MP

Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy has not ruled out standing down as an MP at the general election to focus on the fight for Holyrood.

Mr Murphy confirmed that he is currently Labour's candidate to retain his East Renfrewshire seat in Westminster, but said he will tell his constituents "if the situation changes".

However, he said he does not want to be an MP and first minister of Scotland, suggesting he may still stand in May but then relinquish his Westminster seat if he is subsequently elected to Holyrood and secures enough Labour MSPs to form a Scottish Government.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...-mp.1422192768

What a loser. He is waiting to see what the latest polls say. Has Murphy got an office at Pacific Quay/ BBC by the way? He seems to be there or thereabouts every day!

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Old January 28th, 2015, 02:27 PM   #9717
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However, he said he does not want to be an MP and first minister of Scotland
Pahahahahaha, at least he's good for a laugh. He's joking about being First Minister right? Ladbrokes odds are 1:7 for a Labour majority, 1:1.8 for an SNP majority. 1:1.18 for SNP having the most seats. Where can I bet a tenner than Murphy isn't going to be the next FM?

Dunno what polls he might be waiting for - ipsos-mori poll for STV last week has SNP with over double Lab votes:
Quote:
A poll conducted for STV by Ipsos-MORI Scotland puts Nicola Sturgeon's Nationalists on 53% in constituency voting preference amongst those certain to vote.
This gives the party a 29-point lead over its nearest rival Scottish Labour on 24%.
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Old January 28th, 2015, 05:17 PM   #9718
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[B]
What a loser. He is waiting to see what the latest polls say. Has Murphy got an office at Pacific Quay/ BBC by the way? He seems to be there or thereabouts every day!

Yup, i am pretty sure they have allowed him to have a sleeping bag in there(or he is hiding in the toilets every night).

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Old January 28th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #9719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaeguDuke View Post
Pahahahahaha, at least he's good for a laugh. He's joking about being First Minister right? Ladbrokes odds are 1:7 for a Labour majority, 1:1.8 for an SNP majority. 1:1.18 for SNP having the most seats. Where can I bet a tenner than Murphy isn't going to be the next FM?:
Funny, I seem to remember you lot didn't believe in the bookies odds in the run up to the referendum, they were obviously going to be wrong because you guys could really understand what the Scottish people were thinking and they couldn't.

Which reminds me, does Johnnyfive ever post here any longer? He seemed to disappear after he lost his £100 bet with me about the referendum result!
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Old Today, 02:50 AM   #9720
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Why aren't the unionist parties stepping in to help people affected by Tesco supermarket closures(especially the Kirkcaldy)? I thought if we voted no everything would be ok and we are all Better Together?

I guess when you have fine up standing fellows like the one in the pic below in the Labour party, the people who work there shouldn't expect help any time soon.

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