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Old May 29th, 2005, 08:21 PM   #1
sloyne
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Isolated Liverpool

Seeing as the LJLA thread is closed I will reply in this new thread. I am a frequent flyer (19 flights since November 2004) and travel to the Liverpool area quite often. I will only use LHR and MAN at a last resort. Flying from Toronto to Manchester via Heathrow is a nightmare. On arrival at Heathrow one has to collect ones baggage then take to the the domestic terminal. I usually walk rather than take the bus, which sometimes takes forever. On arrival at the check-in desk I am assigned a seat and my bags are tagged for MAN. I am then subject to another security screening and, quite often, have to run to catch my flight to MAN. On arrival at MAN I have to purchase abus ticket for the ride, on National Bus, to Norton Street. Contrary to, constantly stated, information on this forum, it is not a hourly bus service or for that matter, train service. I have waited more than three hours at times for a bus to Liverpool. Bus scheds as train or airline scheds are subject to availability of equipment. If, for example, the MAN-Liverpool bus arrives at Manchester bus terminal and the Manchester-Birmingham bus, with a full load, has gone belly-up, then the MAN-Liverpool bus, with a smaller load, will commandered for the Brum route.

Most pax from the Greater Liverpool area will have private means of transport to and from MAN. Unfortunately most overseas visitors will not. I believe this will be a major problem for visitors in 2008. My usual experience between LHR and MAN will deter future visitors, I'm sure. If Henshaw, Storey et al wish to eliminate problems before 2008 they will surely demand a LPL-LHR link.
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Old May 29th, 2005, 08:29 PM   #2
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As a non-motorist who frequently has to travel between the south and north of England, I have a view on this, Sloyne.

Journeys to Liverpool from Manchester Airport by public transport are a nightmare of expense and inconvenience and delay. It's a hell of a walk from some gates to the "near Manchester Airport" train station - and even with the automated walkways (which often don't seem to be working) it's a good 15 minutes, up to 20. You would have to be a jogger and also good at pushing people out of the way to do it in 10 minutes. It's simply too far to really qualify as an "in" airport train station. It's near, I admit.

The service from Manchester Airport to Liverpool is - as "Sir Miles Platting" pointedly revealed on the former thread - infrequent and slow, even with his curious "express that requires a change of train" option. And that is the weekday schedule. Never mind the reality, which includes cancelled and delayed trains, and Sunday services.

Anyway, it's perfectly legitimate for visitors to and from the Liverpool City Region (and beyond) to want the choice of Liverpool for longhaul as well as shorthaul flights. I resent having to use Manchester Airport because of some history of discimination against Speke. I want to use the regional airport for the region I am visiting, ie JLA if I am visiting Liverpool City Region, just as I want to use a London Airport for travel to/from Greater London, or a Barcelona Airport for a visit to Barcelona. Manchester can only ever be an inconvenient second-best for Liverpool bound or based passengers.

I agree with you that it's vital for Liverpool Airport to attract more direct scheduled flights, including a proper London link, before 2008. Liverpool needs direct North America flights, not just Canada (and Zoom should be enticed over to JLA from Manchester) but to the US as well.

Last edited by liverpolitan; May 29th, 2005 at 08:56 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 02:41 PM   #3
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I think at some 2200m, the runway at JLA is insufficient for fully loaded long haul destinations. They need to extend it but that won't be easy considering there is a protected natural environment at one end and private property to the other.

The only realistic direct link to london Heathrow is with either BA or BMI and both are very active at Manchester having hubbing operations at terminal 3. I don't think either would move a manchester route to liverpool personally although BMI are rumoured to be reducing activities at MAN.

Stanstead and Luton are real possiblities with Easyjet and Ryanair but neither have long haul routes so you are back to square 1.

The best alternative is to increase train movements from the Manchester airport to liverpool with some express services. They should electrify the line that runs through warrington to do this. Afterall, Liverpool city centre to MAN is only about 30 miles. Compare this to London to LHR-15miles, LGW-25miles, Stanstead-30miles. So I don't think JLA needs to expand anyfurther than a regional-european airport similar to Luton or Stanstead.

Sloynes point is very valid though. From stoke I am very well connected to both MAN and BHX with half hourly direct services to both airports' train stations (I simply cannot see how it takes poli 20 mins to walk from the train station to any arrivals/departures area at MAN). It should be better for liverpool
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Old May 30th, 2005, 04:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerv
The best alternative is to increase train movements from the Manchester airport to liverpool with some express services. They should electrify the line that runs through warrington to do this. Afterall, Liverpool city centre to MAN is only about 30 miles. Compare this to London to LHR-15miles, LGW-25miles, Stanstead-30miles. So I don't think JLA needs to expand anyfurther than a regional-european airport similar to Luton or Stanstead.
And the above is NO alternative. The problem is, as I have repeatedly said, "It is not LJLA that is isolated it is Liverpool it's self. Liverpool is the third largest city in England, after London and Birmingham yet it takes visitors longer to get from Heathrow to Liverpool than it does to fly across the ocean. The lack of a connection between LJLA and Heathrow, your nations international air gateway, is a barrier to foriegn visitors. I know for a fact that many of my colleagues here in North America discourage people from visiting Liverpool simply because of the work it entails, for both passenger and travel counsellor. "Why not use Manchester as your northern base"? they ask, "after all Liverpool is practically a suburb of Manchester". And, from my perspective, Liverpool will continue to be regarded as a suburb of Manchester until overseas visitors can fly direct to Liverpool from Heathrow.

I agree Jerv, Liverpool has no need to but should aspire to become a full international airport, failure to do so would show a distinct lack of ambition. However, it's present status as a regional airport is quite sufficient to the needs of the travelling public of the Greater Liverpool and North Wales catchment area, if it had a connection to a airport with an extensive international network and that airport is Heathrow. Regardless of the propoganda eminating from Muirhead and Thompson up the M62, MAN has a very limited international network and is, IMHO, a large regional airport. I believe that the politicians of Greater Liverpool, national and local and the press, are abrogating thier duty to the people by not fighting vigorously for a Heathrow connection. What it will take to get them off the pot I don't know, but until they do, Liverpool will remain a perceived suburb of Manchester in the eyes of many foreigners.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:05 PM   #5
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So this is about City Identity and not the practicality of the issue? That's the way it seems. Would it help if they changed the name of Manchester International to "Liverpool large regional airport".

Whilst living in Manchester, I used JLA several times to take advantage of Easyjets routes and I never found that a problem. Why is it a problem to use manchester from Liverpool? Your issue is with Public land transport.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:06 PM   #6
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Sloyne, how many international airports do you think a country the size of the UK can sustain?

Principal Urban Areas
Name Adm. A C 2001-04-29
1 London LON 8,278,251
2 Birmingham WML 2,284,093
3 Manchester MAN 2,244,931
4 Leeds WYS 1,499,465
5 Newcastle upon Tyne TYN 879,996
6 Liverpool MER 816,216
7 Nottingham NOT 666,358
8 Sheffield SYS 640,720
9 Bristol BRI 551,066
10 Brighton BAH 461,181
11 Portsmouth PMO 442,252
12 Leicester LEI 441,213
13 Bournemouth BMO 383,713
14 Reading REA 369,804
15 Middlesbrough MID 365,323
16 Stoke-on-Trent STR 362,403
17 Coventry WML 336,452
18 Birkenhead MER 319,675
19 Southampton SHT 304,400
20 Kingston upon Hull KUH 301,416
21 Southend-on-Sea SOS 269,415
22 Preston LAN 264,601
23 Blackpool BLP 261,088

Note, Manchester's population was revised upwards from this by 30,000 in 2002 (the local authority population was raised from 392,000 to 422,000). As you can see, there are four urban areas more in need of a full international airport than Liverpool (I'm counting Birkenhead as part of Liverpool btw), plus I'd have to include Glasgow as Scotland needs one too. When you look at that list it's obvious why Liverpool only has a provincial airport. Because in terms of size it's a third tier city.

As for MAN having a "very limited international network", well here are it's international destinations:

Agadir, Alicante, Almeria, Amsterdam, Antalya, Antigua, Arrecife, Athens, Atlanta, Banjul-Yundum, Barbados, Barcelona, Basle, Belfast City, Belfast Intl, Bergamo, Berlin, Billund, Bodrum, Bordeaux, Boston, Bratislava, Brescia, Brussels, Bucharest, Bucharest, Burgas, Cagliari, Calgary, Calvi, Cancun, Catania, Cayo Coco, Chambery, Chania, Chicago, Cologne, Copenhagen, Corfu, Cork, Dalaman, Damascus, Doha, Dubai, Dublin, Dubrovnik, Dusseldorf, Edinburgh, Ercan, Exeter, Faro, Figari, Frankfurt, Fuerteventura, Funchal, Galway, Geneva, Gerona, Gibraltar, Goa, Gothenburg, Grenoble, Guernsey, Halifax, Hamburg, Hanover, Helsinki, Heraklion, Houston, Hurghada, Ibiza, Innsbruck, Inverness, Islamabad, Isle Of Man, Istanbul, Izmir, Jeddah, Jerez, Jersey, Kalamata, Karachi, Kavala, Kefallinia, Kerry County, Kittila, Knock, Kos, Krakow, Kuala Lumpur, La Romana, Lahore, Larnaca, Las Palmas, Las Vegas, Lisbon, Ljubljana, Londonderry, Lourdes-Tarbes, Luxembourg, Luxor, Lyon, Madrid, Mahon, Malaga, Male, Malta, Manston, Miami, Mikonos, Milan-Mxp, Minsk, Mitilini-Lesbos, Monastir, Montego Bay, Munich, Murcia, Naples, Nassau, New York-Jfk, Newark Liberty, Nice, Olbia, Oporto, Orlando, Oslo, Ottawa, Ovdah, Paderborn, Palma, Paphos, Paris-Cdg, Philadelphia, Pisa, Plovdiv, Plymouth, Porlamar, Port O Spain, Prague, Preveza, Puerto Plata, Pula, Punta Cana, Reus, Rhodes, Riga, Rimini, Rome-Fco, Rovaniemi, Salzburg, Samos, San Francisco, Sanford, Santorini, Shannon, Sharm-El-Sheik, Singapore, Skiathos, Sofia, Split, St Lucia, Stockholm, Stockholm, Taba, Tallinn, Tenerife, Tenerife North, Thessalonika, Toronto, Toulouse, Turin, Valencia, Vancouver, Varadero, Varna, Venice, Verona, Vienna, Volos, Warsaw, Washington, Waterford, Zakynthos and Zurich.

As far as I'm concerned that isn't a "limited" list particularly.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sloyne
Flying from Toronto to Manchester via Heathrow is a nightmare. On arrival at Heathrow one has to collect ones baggage then take to the the domestic terminal. I usually walk rather than take the bus, which sometimes takes forever. On arrival at the check-in desk I am assigned a seat and my bags are tagged for MAN. I am then subject to another security screening and, quite often, have to run to catch my flight to MAN. On arrival at MAN I have to purchase abus ticket for the ride, on National Bus, to Norton Street. Contrary to, constantly stated, information on this forum, it is not a hourly bus service or for that matter, train service.
Did you not realise that Air Transat, Air Canada, BMI, MyTravel, PIA, SAS Scandinavian, SkyService, Thomas Cook and Zoom all fly direct services from Manchester to Toronto and back?
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:21 PM   #8
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Where do you get the population for Liverpool of 800k and manchester of 2.2. The metropolitan area population for liverpool is around 1.6.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:21 PM   #9
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EarlyBird, in answer to your question as to how many "International Airports" the UK needs, my answer is 1 (ONE). And of course you already have that in Heathrow. Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Belfast et al, ad nauseum only need a decent domestic connecting service to that airport. I am saying that a curnubation the size of Greater Liverpool needs a connection to Heathrow. Don't you?

I travel to the Liverpool, from North America, many times a year and I know first hand how difficult it is to reach Liverpool when plussing through London London. Because of these difficulties I know travel via AMS-CDG, DUB or MAD.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:28 PM   #10
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Most of those destination are via Heathrow and/or Gatwick and as for the North American destinations, through JFK, EWR and ORD. MAN-YYZ are charter flights. MAN only have a YYZ connection from mid June to late SEptember operated, again, by Air Canada. MAN is a destination airport NOT A HUB. Not one airline uses MAN as a hub. The only true hub in the UK is Heathrow, Gatwick has a limited hub system. But this is not a thread knocking MAN it is a thread promoting an air connection between LPL and LHR. Obviously you don't want that because you are Manchester based. Selfish?
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:37 PM   #11
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It is puzzling that LPL and LHR do not have a shuttle service between them, you would think that a city the size of Liverpool would merit such a service. However, does the lack of such a service for so long not possibly say something? ie. that the airlines do not think that it will be subscribed to enough to make it profitable?
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyBird
Did you not realise that Air Transat, Air Canada, BMI, MyTravel, PIA, SAS Scandinavian, SkyService, Thomas Cook and Zoom all fly direct services from Manchester to Toronto and back?

No they don't.
The only direct flights are with Air Transat or Zoom
SAS is via either copenhagen or Stockholm
BMI is via washinghton, Chicago or heathrow as part of the star alliance
PIA is via New York
Air Canada I'm not sure about. I think this is seasonal.
The others are charter flights.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyBird
Did you not realise that Air Transat, Air Canada, BMI, MyTravel, PIA, SAS Scandinavian, SkyService, Thomas Cook and Zoom all fly direct services from Manchester to Toronto and back?
Only Air Canada is a sched carrier with rights to carry pax between Canada and the UK. PIA do not have Fifth Freedom Rights on this route. The SAS route is via Copenhagen and the BMI route is via London, Heathrow. Air Transat, MYTravel, SkyService, TC and Zoom are all licenced charter airlines with NO interlining at MAN, bolstering my assertion that MAN is a destination airport.

EarlyBird you are misleading people with your list of destinations served from MAN. I have estimated that over 78% percent of them are via another station, mostly Heathrow and it is easy to check this out by going to the Travelocity web site or if you are a IATA Agent, to the OAG online website. MAN is a very busy charter airport with, after the Heathrow service, charter services accounting for almost 80% percent of MAN's throughput. BUT THIS IS A THREAD PROMOTING A LHR LINK WITH LPL not a MAN promoting thread.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sloyne
Most of those destination are via Heathrow and/or Gatwick and as for the North American destinations, through JFK, EWR and ORD. MAN-YYZ are charter flights. MAN only have a YYZ connection from mid June to late SEptember operated, again, by Air Canada. MAN is a destination airport NOT A HUB. Not one airline uses MAN as a hub.
1. All the destinations listed by EB are DIRECT SCHEDULED. Fact. I've seen the source and here is one you can check it with (look at the maps)http://www.flightmapping.com/

2.MAN-YYZ has all year daily connection with Zoom and weekend connection with Air Transat. Air Canada is Seasonal.

3. MAN has a hubbing terminal and is used by BA and BMI. Manchester is a Hub for BA with 37 direct destinations from MAN including daily New York services.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeasteDevil
However, does the lack of such a service for so long not possibly say something? ie. that the airlines do not think that it will be subscribed to enough to make it profitable?
It says more about the slot system at Heathrow and the need for economise of scale that the consolodation at fewer airports offer. This does nothing for the travelling public, whether that public be in Liverpool or any other place deprived a local link to the nations only hub airport. It is not a case of Liverpool over Manchester but a case of offering equal service to each and every taxpayer. Why should Liverpolitans, with a modern airport, have to travel to another municipality in order to get to the nations only hub airport? I don't think Liverpool people want to usurp Manchesters position as the regions major airport. I do think they want reasonable access to the world that a Heathrow service offers. Don't you?
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:55 PM   #16
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As I said Sloyne, it puzzles me, Liverpool do deserve a direct link IMO.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 05:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerv
3. MAN has a hubbing terminal and is used by BA and BMI. Manchester is a Hub for BA with 37 direct destinations from MAN including daily New York services.
Then why, when I access the Sabre, Amadeus, Gemini, OAG reservation systems they offer me plussing through Heathrow for, every destination I try? This is another figure from the British CAA; 7% percent of MAN arriving/departing pax are from the MAN catchment area. 62% percent of pax arriving/departing through Heathrow are Interlining and onward travellers.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 06:05 PM   #18
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I think the only shuttle services between Heathrow and other English cities are Manchester, Newcastle, Teeside, and Leeds. Am I right in saying that Birmingham doesn't get one?

Could it be that Liverpool is too close to Manchester for the airlines to bother? Birmingham too close to London itself?
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Old May 30th, 2005, 06:17 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyBird

Atlanta, Banjul-Yundum, Barbados, , Boston, Calgary, Cancun, Cayo Coco, Damascus, Doha, Dubai, Halifax, Houston, Jeddah, Kuala Lumpur, Lahore, Las Vegas, Luxor, Male, Miami, Montego Bay, Nassau, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Port O Spain, Puerto Plata, Punta Cana, San Francisco, Sanford, Sharm-El-Sheik, St Lucia, Toronto, Vancouver, Varadero, Washington,.
EarlyBird, So far I have checked, on Sabre, all of the above and none have a direct reg sched link with MAN. They all have, however, either limited charter, seasonal sched and/or a connection through another downline connection airport, like Heathrow. One you didn't mention was Tampa (TPA) to Manchester. This is advertised via BA in the Tampa Bay area but further scrutiny reveals that the service actually plusses through London Gatwick. And the Banjul (Bathurst), Gambia service is either via Heathrow, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam or Brussels and most connect again at another African airport like Lagos, Nigeria, Accra, Ghana or Johanesburg, SA.
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Last edited by sloyne; May 30th, 2005 at 06:25 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2005, 06:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerv
No they don't.
The only direct flights are with Air Transat or Zoom
SAS is via either copenhagen or Stockholm
BMI is via washinghton, Chicago or heathrow as part of the star alliance
PIA is via New York
Air Canada I'm not sure about. I think this is seasonal.
The others are charter flights.
Do you even know what direct means? Direct means you don't have to change. Non-stop means you don't stop somewhere else on the way. Every one I listed is direct, but not all are non-stop.
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